Balance T18 - BiS Progression Discussion

[Alame]

I'm not very good with simcraft coding and stuff like that but since we're losing out T17 2p, is the bot using lunar starsurge on the downswing when it has to refresh moonfire in a very low haste build?

If not, is there any way to make it do so to compare the results?

The starsurge conditions are:
actions.single_target=starsurge,if=buff.lunar_empowerment.down&(eclipse_energy>20|buff.cel estial_alignment.up)
actions.single_target+=/starsurge,if=buff.solar_empowerment.down&eclipse_energy<-40
actions.single_target+=/starsurge,if=(charges=2&recharge_time<6)|charges=3

In English, the sim will Starsurge if:
1. There are no active Lunar Empowerment charges and Eclipse is above 20 energy on Lunar side, or Celestial Alignment is active.
2. There are no active Solar Empowerment charges and Eclipse is above 40 energy on Solar side
3. There are 2 available Starsurge charges and less than 6 seconds until the next charge becomes available.


In short, yes the bot will Starsurge on the downswing of eclipse, but it is not explicitly programed to do so. It will simply do so if one of the above scenarios is true at that given moment.

In order to explicitly do so, you could add the following conditions:
actions.single_target=starsurge,if=eclipse_energy<50&eclipse_change<5
actions.single_target=moonfire,if=remains<15&eclipse_energy<20

The result is that as soon as the downswing of Lunar eclipse passes 50 energy, the bot will prioritize a Starsurge, refresh moonfire in the next GCD (every other cycle thanks to our "if=remains<15" clause) and then begin casting wrath for the eclipse transition.

Now, I'd hardly call myself an expert - far from it. But from what I know it seems like that would do the trick.

[MV Kaa]

Did you guys not do that this tier? That happen to me a lot where I would SS at full eclipse, SF twice and then have 2 charges of SS left over so i would SS before leaving lunar. Or am i just bad?

[Alame]

Did you guys not do that this tier? That happen to me a lot where I would SS at full eclipse, SF twice and then have 2 charges of SS left over so i would SS before leaving lunar. Or am i just bad?

Starsurging on the downswing of eclipse is a perfectly good way to charge-dump. It just tends to smooth out the rotation at lower haste levels because Starsurge -> Starfire -> Starfire is tough to fit into the ~6s window before Eclipse starts it's downswing with ~2.3s Starfire casts. SS on the downswing means you can just do the Starfires leading up to peak instead of having to squeeze another global in.

[MV Kaa]

Starsurging on the downswing of eclipse is a perfectly good way to charge-dump. It just tends to smooth out the rotation at lower haste levels because Starsurge -> Starfire -> Starfire is tough to fit into the ~6s window before Eclipse starts it's downswing with ~2.3s Starfire casts. SS on the downswing means you can just do the Starfires leading up to peak instead of having to squeeze another global in.

Yea I knew that >.> im pro

[Alame]

Also for those of you asking about Intuition's Gift - It's not worth it.

I added it to the BiS spreadsheet, score wise it significantly under-performs every other trinket. Yes there is some benefit to having the on-use effect to stack with your cooldowns, but it's almost 30% weaker than other trinkets. The additional DPS from stacking it with Incarn/CA isn't going to make up the stat shortfall.

Now if that spirit were mastery .......

[lappee]

Okay.

The APL I tinkered with didn't work out so great, ended up being significantly below the default APL in terms of DPS output. Trying to figure out what's wrong with it.

In the meantime, here are the results from the default APL. All sims were done at 450s fight length @ 250k iterations.

Now those have more in line with the results I got regarding haste. I'd still prefer to have some variance in fight lenght but thats not a that big deal.

I can try to take a look at the APL at some point if I have time and interest, no promises

[Deleted]

Am I the only one that noticed the single target scale factors being HIGHER than multitarget? That doesn't seem right at all, shouldn't be a dps loss to hit more targets.

[lappee]

Am I the only one that noticed the single target scale factors being HIGHER than multitarget? That doesn't seem right at all, shouldn't be a dps loss to hit more targets.

Yah, perhaps he just mixed the two.

I tried to play with the APL a bit in ST, managed to gain 40 dps so the current one works just fine for now. However I'm seeing haste rather high up on scaling in both ST and HecticAddCleave when we're using Seed of Creation.

Single Target

HecticAddCleave


Both are using 1200 rating to all secondary stats, SoC is Mythic version just for 100% chance to proc starfall

[MV Kaa]

Could you use heroic version since 99% of the people will be using that most of the tier? or will that not change the numbers much

[lappee]

Could you use heroic version since 99% of the people will be using that most of the tier? or will that not change the numbers much

Didnt really change anything in either of the cases.

Using actual T18H gear with high Mastery and Haste it changes around quite alot and SoC isnt that far ahead of other trinkets (since Mastery and Haste both scale badly with starfall)

[Deleted]

Which trinkets expect DSI are close to Soc on single target? (using heroic bis list)

[lappee]

Which trinkets expect DSI are close to Soc on single target? (using heroic bis list)

The T18H default profile uses Iron reaver piston as second trinket, I'll run all trinket combinations with 10k iterations soon.

edit: BRF trinkets are Mythic and HFC are HC. Sims use default T18H profile gear.

[Alame]

You are still using the default actionlist, which uses starfall over starsurge when >1 target. To get any usable sim results the entire actionlist needs to change to accommodate for the trinket.

Was this always here? I only just saw it this morning - One of the changes I made in my API was getting the sim to Starsurge instead of starfall for aoe with Seed. Something else is still messed though, hopefully I'll fix it when I get home from work.

Am I the only one that noticed the single target scale factors being HIGHER than multitarget? That doesn't seem right at all, shouldn't be a dps loss to hit more targets.

Lappee's right, the two images are reversed. Fixing...

The T18H default profile uses Iron reaver piston as second trinket, I'll run all trinket combinations with 10k iterations soon.

I'm pretty sure it will be Piston. The 3 boomkins in my raid (Ka, Earthwormjim & Myself) ran different trinket combinations for Zakuun - I was on Seed, Ka was on Piston & Earthwormjim was on Prisim. Piston bursted harder but dropped off faster than seed, and prisim was just plain garbage. Once you take away the 685 downscaling Seed will be straight better than Piston, but Piston does seem to be the #3 choice (after SoC/DSI) for single-target. Defs worth the comparison sim though, maybe Peon screwed up and prisim isn't as bad as he's letting on

Prisim is that high? Interesting - I didn't think the 685 scale down we tested it under would impact it that much.

[lappee]

Prisim is that high? Interesting - I didn't think the 685 scale down we tested it under would impact it that much.

You can pretty much disregard Chipped Soul Prism OPness as at the time I made the list I didnt know where it dropped. Its using Heroic modifier (like all other HFC trinkets) but as that one drops from world boss it only has Normal version available.

[Deleted]

AFAIK Chipped Soul Prism is a drop from the world boss Supreme Lord Kazzak so only the normal version of the trinket will be obtainable.
EDIT: lappe beat me to it

[Alame]

So discounting Prisim it seems that GSR/DSI outperforms Piston/DSI. Really wish the stat budget on piston was higher

[lappee]

So discounting Prisim it seems that GSR/DSI outperforms Piston/DSI. Really wish the stat budget on piston was higher

We'll see how high Prism ends, its still 705 ilvl which is the same ilvl as DSI and IRP on HC. Running the updated sims now

edit:

[MV Kaa]

Im so confused, all of these sims say different things :P
Whats our best secondary stat?
Is chipped really BiS?
Would we really not use SoC on add heavy fights?

[Deleted]

Whats our best secondary stat?

Depends on your gear and the fight. Except for vers, you'll want some of all stats, mostly haste/mastery ST and crit/mastery multi target.

Is chipped really BiS?

No, only til you can get your hands on mythic trinkets.

Would we really not use SoC on add heavy fights?

Correct, SoC is the worst option for aoe.

[Deleted]

Can you do a mythic sim of the trinkets aswell?