Arena ruined PvP

[Sencha]

Fully agree with you OP.

[Nalistar]

While I don't mind the deathmatch mode per se, I will always resent the Arena system for the role LoS and pillars play in it, turning pvp into a hide and seek game where you often end up chasing each other around like headless chicken.

And I know some people may like it because there's some skill involved in the LoS mechanic of pillars, but it still feels so awkward to me.

[Deleted]

Arenas made pvp much much more enjoyable for me, battlegrounds (esp Random ones) are so boring since people tend to ignore the objective. But this is MY opinion, i dont necessarly agree that arenas are what ruined pvp but i can respect your opinion that you feel that way.

[Saberstrike]

Restoration druids got the hate entirely because of 2's.

The thing I hate about resto design in tbc isn't that they were op everywhere, but that they set a precedent for 'it's ok for healer to never run oom'. The trade-off then was indeed objectively lower burst-healing output than priests and paladins; And what I to this day hate about resto is that instead of tuning them to be better healers at a cost of no more endless mana, they instead made EVERYONE have endless mana. Hell even locks had to at least life tap now and then.

And it is indeed a shame the devs are terrible at targeting the real issues. I still remember 'X is op, better nerf warriors' and 'Y is op, better nerf chaos bolt' memes.

Arenas made pvp much much more enjoyable for me, battlegrounds (esp Random ones) are so boring since people tend to ignore the objective. But this is MY opinion, i dont necessarly agree that arenas are what ruined pvp but i can respect your opinion that you feel that way.

Arenas aren't bad as A THING to have in the game, they're bad because they have (or well; had, until legion) the best rewards, and they were what the game was balanced around. It's fine to have deathmatch type mode in the game, it's not fine to pretend that balancing around it is good for the game as a whole.

[Deleted]

The thing I hate about resto design in tbc isn't that they were op everywhere, but that they set a precedent for 'it's ok for healer to never run oom'. The trade-off then was indeed objectively lower burst-healing output than priests and paladins; And what I to this day hate about resto is that instead of tuning them to be better healers at a cost of no more endless mana, they instead made EVERYONE have endless mana. Hell even locks had to at least life tap now and then.

And it is indeed a shame the devs are terrible at targeting the real issues. I still remember 'X is op, better nerf warriors' and 'Y is op, better nerf chaos bolt' memes.



Arenas aren't bad as A THING to have in the game, they're bad because they have (or well; had, until legion) the best rewards, and they were what the game was balanced around. It's fine to have deathmatch type mode in the game, it's not fine to pretend that balancing around it is good for the game as a whole.

what, since when were they the best reward in the game? In wotlk pve gear destroyed anything that you touched. And with legion they have made that you have different stats in arena and pve changes don't affect pvp change (well not that much as b4) since pvp dev are (supposed to) change certain classes and spells to have different dmgs or effects in pvp if they are becoming to strong or to weak.

[ItachiZaku]

I rarely arena or skirmish. I don't see the point in dueling someone either. I prefer mass combat. Beating a couple other people does nothing for me, but being an army... oh yes, YES!

[Saberstrike]

what, since when were they the best reward in the game? In wotlk pve gear destroyed anything that you touched. And with legion they have made that you have different stats in arena and pve changes don't affect pvp change (well not that much as b4) since pvp dev are (supposed to) change certain classes and spells to have different dmgs or effects in pvp if they are becoming to strong or to weak.

Yeah pve gear was better than pvp but I'm talking about rewards you get FROM pvp, not whether those rewards were objectively as powerful as they needed to be. You didn't... well. ever? - get anywhere near enough stuff from wpvp and BGs to compete with real PvPers or raiders.

The whole 'templates' business is a whole nother can of worms; I do still think it's better than letting raiders dominate everything, however -- knowing blizzard and looking at state of classes like rogue and demon hunter -- it won't work. They just can't see the bigger picture of game balance, and/or act on it quick enough and with enough finesse for that system to truly work as well as it should. At least, with the current devs.

[Fugus]

The thing I hate about resto design in tbc isn't that they were op everywhere, but that they set a precedent for 'it's ok for healer to never run oom'. The trade-off then was indeed objectively lower burst-healing output than priests and paladins; And what I to this day hate about resto is that instead of tuning them to be better healers at a cost of no more endless mana, they instead made EVERYONE have endless mana. Hell even locks had to at least life tap now and then.

And it is indeed a shame the devs are terrible at targeting the real issues. I still remember 'X is op, better nerf warriors' and 'Y is op, better nerf chaos bolt' memes.

Yeah, to address the OOM issues may have been a little rough without hurting them in raids where their jobs were spreading heals on the raid and multiple tanks. For the part in 2's. A lot of that could have also been fixed by moving "Feral Charge" deeper into the feral tree and taking all that damn bonus armor off restoration gear so they couldn't HoT and bear up while charging to the other guy and travel forming away.

If it was me, I would have removed Mangle as the 41 point talent and baked it into Claw. Honestly that was like if they put a rogues Sinister Strike at the end of his Combat tree. It was a cop out of a talent. Then I would have moved Feral Charge to that spot in the tree and made it usable in both Cat and Bear form with no cost which would have given Ferals an interrupt in PvP and PvE for Cat and Bear and removed it from being in range of Restoration druids, then I would have put Tiger's Fury in it's old slot and changed it to be more like a rogues Blade Fury and usable in both forms to give Cats and AoE attack and Bears of the time a better way of getting AoE threat.

Then I would have removed all that armor from the restoration gear, no reason Restoration druids bear should have as much armor as a feral bear.

Also sucked as a feral druid. "Restoration druids are too strong!! Here lets nerf Feral druids... Restoration druids are still too strong! Ok, we will nerf Balance druids.... They are still too strong, fine, we will gut Feral some more, you happy now?"

Reminded me of something one of my friends told me when I first started, he tried to urge me against playing a feral druid and tried telling me that the developers hated them. Overall, he seemed to be right with how they treated them that expansion and would refuse to actually make attempts to address issues till they could break others and eventually broke feral up into 2 effective half specs.

I actually quit during WotLK because of what they did to feral that expansion with it's PvP and then I tried against in MoP and my Arms warrior was a bigger hybrid than my Feral druid when I tried. He did the DPS of my Cat form while simultaneously having the armor of my bear form if my DPS spec cat went bear while having passive healing almost on par with my druids casted heals without having to worry about a mana bar and never even having to leave battle stance. Last time I played after that, felt like an insult to my class.

[shoegazing]

what?
i dont... what?

my point is WHO CARES what your damage rotation was like in old WoW when you had dozens of different situational and utility abilities like curses and CCs to use against other players

modern WoW classes are designed to be engaging when vsing a raid boss or a targeting dummy. you press 12345 unless you get a proc then you press 12453 instead, or whatever

older versions of the game had less emphasis on stupid rotations (therefore you could shadowbolt someone for a lot of damage) but a lot more emphasis on reading and reacting to the situation around you rather than just PvEing at the enemy player like they are a training dummy

it's not difficult to understand, you are just playing at being ignorant

[FelPlague]

my point is WHO CARES what your damage rotation was like in old WoW when you had dozens of different situational and utility abilities like curses and CCs to use against other players

modern WoW classes are designed to be engaging when vsing a raid boss or a targeting dummy. you press 12345 unless you get a proc then you press 12453 instead, or whatever

older versions of the game had less emphasis on stupid rotations (therefore you could shadowbolt someone for a lot of damage) but a lot more emphasis on reading and reacting to the situation around you rather than just PvEing at the enemy player like they are a training dummy

it's not difficult to understand, you are just playing at being ignorant

that still ment pvp was not a master peice, because i would walk in, shadowbolt, shadowbolt, win

[shoegazing]

that still ment pvp was not a master peice, because i would walk in, shadowbolt, shadowbolt, win

what xpac are you even talking about.

[Deleted]

Yeah pve gear was better than pvp but I'm talking about rewards you get FROM pvp, not whether those rewards were objectively as powerful as they needed to be. You didn't... well. ever? - get anywhere near enough stuff from wpvp and BGs to compete with real PvPers or raiders.

The whole 'templates' business is a whole nother can of worms; I do still think it's better than letting raiders dominate everything, however -- knowing blizzard and looking at state of classes like rogue and demon hunter -- it won't work. They just can't see the bigger picture of game balance, and/or act on it quick enough and with enough finesse for that system to truly work as well as it should. At least, with the current devs.

im sorry im so confused at what you want.

[FelPlague]

what xpac are you even talking about.

well TBC for example, same with vanilla

[shoegazing]

well TBC for example, same with vanilla

???

No one in their right mind would point to those as the golden years of PvP. I say this as a BC era gladiator. It was fun at the time because we didn't know better but the best was yet to come. The later seasons of WotLK, Cata, and MoP are commonly cited as the type of gameplay that PvPers would like to see return.

[FelPlague]

???

No one in their right mind would point to those as the golden years of PvP. I say this as a BC era gladiator. It was fun at the time because we didn't know better but the best was yet to come. The later seasons of WotLK, Cata, and MoP are commonly cited as the type of gameplay that PvPers would like to see return.

"before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited"
is what you said, and that includes vanilla and TBC

"the world was perfect before millennials got it" still includes hitler and dinosaurs...


also im just gunan put you on ignore cause you seem to be just wanting to push an agenda of "Game was perfect, now its shit everyone quit"

[Protean]

Alterac Valley is the very thing you describe Arenas as.
Players are what ruin battlegrounds as far as lack of objective chasing goes, because they view the scoreboard and humping damage meters as more important than actually winning.
Because that winning may involve doing things which don't favour their simplistic measures of superiority.

"I got more kills than you" - yes, but you did it by ganking in the middle while we lost our flag and the game.
"But so what, I still got more than you."

Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
That will speak volumes about the real issues.

That's because those things are more fun.


If they wanted to fix the problem, they should just add a metric for objectives completed like in Overwatch. "Most damage done to players while attacking/defending point". If scoreboard reflected high damage but little/no presence on point it would give more ammo against people dicking around.

[epLe]

I agree, tbc and vanilla was by far the better seasons for PvP. And I liked wrath+cata arena aswell.

Blizzard had no illusions about balancing, scissors would never be beaten by paper.

It was totally fine that some specs wrecked others, and some was way stronger than others.
Most changes they ever done to PvP to balance stuff has contributed to make everything feel very similar in PvP - or simply bland.

All in all people play to have fun, making everything in balance and harmony takes alot of that "fun" out of the different specs.
Just how they deleted all specs like i.e Restokin from the game.

[shoegazing]

"before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited"
is what you said, and that includes vanilla and TBC

"the world was perfect before millennials got it" still includes hitler and dinosaurs...


also im just gunan put you on ignore cause you seem to be just wanting to push an agenda of "Game was perfect, now its shit everyone quit"

when did the d3 devs get moved over to the WoW team?

oh right in WoD

it's not hard to figure out exactly what I meant, particularly given that pretty much everyone else in the PvP scene says the same thing (90+% would say either WotLK, Cata, or MoP was best) you're just being deliberately ignorant

[Deleted]

MoP 5.4 was best season. Everyone loves to throw around this whole "homogenisation sucks, why should all classes be the same?!?!?!?!" nonsense, but when everyone has an answer to everything, it really does (did) come down more to who was faster or more aware or just more experienced.

Now we have homogenisation (ironically under the pretense of singling out class/spec identity) by simply having everyone pressing 1 2 3 4 5, or 1 and 2 and space bar if you're a demon hunter.

[shoegazing]

MoP 5.4 was best season. Everyone loves to throw around this whole "homogenisation sucks, why should all classes be the same?!?!?!?!" nonsense, but when everyone has an answer to everything, it really does (did) come down more to who was faster or more aware or just more experienced.

Now we have homogenisation (ironically under the pretense of singling out class/spec identity) by simply having everyone pressing 1 2 3 4 5, or 1 and 2 and space bar if you're a demon hunter.

Yup, "nothing but the damage rotation" is the new homogenization, and it's far, far worse than the old homogenization ever was

My subtlety rogue in Legion feels more like a mindless & spammy havoc DH than it does like a sneaky & precise subtlety rogue from Wrath/Cata/MoP

I absolutely hate this expansion, it is utterly terrible