Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Aggrophobic]

So you want to rework the loot system so that it really only offers incentives for the 5% of the playerbase, while it leaves the other 95% without content to do? You do realize they have tried and tried to get people raiding, but simply put, most people don't want to raid. Luckily Blizzard listens to money and numbers, which is why your idea wasn't implemented.

No, thats not what I said. I want harder content to reward you with better gear.
Like it always has, until Legion that is.

The game used to have a lot more subs when it actually used this system, sadly Blizzard designers aren't all that smart.

[Redroniksre]

No, thats not what I said. I want harder content to reward you with better gear.
Like it always has, until Legion that is.

The game used to have a lot more subs when it actually used this system, sadly Blizzard designers aren't all that smart.

Did you not realize that as subs grew, the loot system also became easier? Badge gear in TBC, then Wrath with Valor points. As other people have already told you, Mythic does reward you with better ilvl gear, as well as a unique appearance. I'm sorry if that is not enough for you, but again as Mythic is only 5% or less of the population, it is not a demographic worth caring much about.

[Arnoux]

It's time to decrease the gap and/or remove mythic raiding altogether.

[Crimewave]

Whole difficulty system is a horrible mess, I would really wager to bring 4.1\4.2 raid difficulties.
Get rid of LFR and Mythic, leave normal easy and elevate heroic to current mythic difficulty levels. Bring back 10\25(20).

Also cut this warforge\titanforge crap from the game COMPLETELY, it brings nothing but frustration and apathy.

[RoKPaNda]

Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

I always have to laugh when I see posts like this. The chance of that happening is amazingly small. You've never seen someone completely decked out in LFR TF gear. You might see someone that only raids LFR have decent ilevel because they also run Mythic+ though. I've seen a handful of screenshots of max level TF items from LFR during Nighthold but nobody ever has more than 1 LFR piece that TFs really high. It's THAT rare. When people see it they flip their shit and show people here and on reddit. Extremely rare.

Lets me real here, as Mythic raiders we make up the extreme minority. There are more competitive pet battlers than there are Mythic raiders. For all the talk of how PvP is completely dead in WoW there are more PvPers than us. We are such a small minority, we get the highest base ilevel gear because we do the hardest content. We get mounts and achievements and we raid Mythic because we enjoy raiding Mythic.

Nobody should care if someone outside of their raid gets a nice piece of gear. I have to tell you I really don't care if some pleb gets a couple nice pieces that are around the same item level as the base item level of every single piece of gear that drops for us. Doesn't bother me. I think titanforging is great for the game, it's great for everyone that's not a Mythic raider and Blizzard shouldn't gut the system to cater to us.

At worst they could just cap it 5~ ilevels below current tier Mythic base and then Mythic raiders wouldn't obsess over it. Re-adjust every so often like they do with the dungeons. Going back to the old way of gear just warforging 5/10 levels would feel like punishing the 97% for the insecurities of the 3%. The only reason to have any issue with TF is if you're in that 3% or if you're a super hardcore Asmongold fan and believe every word that comes out of his mouth for some reason.

[Salty Maud]

its goal is that even if 940 itlv player goes to normal ToS he has low chance to get upgrade

Isn't that kind of completely ridiculous that someone who has mythic on farm should still want to run heroic or even normal for possible upgrades? Running trivial content is not fun, that's exactly what this uncapped TF system promotes. Getting potentially BiS loot from trivial content makes no sense in regards to the reward structure nor does it provide good and engaging gameplay.

Cap TF at +15 and call it a day. It would still allow people to get potential upgrades from farm content and allow them to overgear bosses should they get stuck somewhere (which is iirc one of the main reasons for the TF system), but not completely fuck up the reward structure.

[willemh]

And this is why you and several other's aren't developers because you'd have your player base leave in massive waves. Especially since how your comment counters itself.

"Challenging content you should not be rewarded" "LFR should have no loot"

It's funny how you tell him mythic shouldn't be about loot but the challenges to overcome, then at the same time state that people would leave the game in massive waves if they would get less loot. This game should be about gameplay anyway, not loot, so how is the argument valid in your case, but not his. Basically your argument can be used by both sides, which makes it quite flawed, and it's funny how this same argument keeps coming back year after year.

To be honest I believe your argument is completely invalid for both sides. Many players are just hamsters in a running wheel that only care about the reward in the end. The psychological cycle of continuous better and better rewards is a huge factor in what keeps players playing this game, and part of what makes it so tempting to keep coming back for many players.

[primalmatter]

Ultimately, the entire point of Titanforging, and all of legion's lust for RNG, is to get as many people doing content over and over and over and over so they keep playing longer, so they keep paying longer.

Anything that effectively puts a stop to the "chance" is going to halt that. People aren't going to "step up" to a higher difficulty. They never have in any considerable number, and never will. Titanforging is probably "bad for the game" in some sort of like, philosophical sense or some shit, but it's good for it's intended purpose, which is to entice the crack addicts, and it works. Why would they change that? What in the world would they possibly gain, financially, from changing it? They might gain integrity from a few mad elitists on keeping the "high end" pure. But integrity doesn't generate money.

Feels like its short term gain for long term harm.

Short term I see the point but it seems like it causes burn out faster once people stop chasing gear.

[Incredibale]

None of you know what you're talking about.

[Kaesebrezen]

Isn't that kind of completely ridiculous that someone who has mythic on farm should still want to run heroic or even normal for possible upgrades? Running trivial content is not fun, that's exactly what this uncapped TF system promotes. Getting potentially BiS loot from trivial content makes no sense in regards to the reward structure nor does it provide good and engaging gameplay.

Yes, the number of people running around in normal titanforge 955 gear clearly proves how many people are farming it weekly for gear...

People farm lower difficulties for AP/Legendaries and to help their friends/alts, the ->chance<- to actually get a useful item out of it is a bonus.

That's the intention of titanforge for mythic raiders, that if they go in lower tiers, they might get an upgrade out of it. I doubt outside of the top end guilds (splitfarming heroic long existed before titanforging), that many guilds go normal or even heroic to purposely get gear upgrades.

[Arainie]

I most certainly hope for a cap on TF and a reduction in ilvl gaps. The power creep these days is beyond ridiculous.

I doubt outside of the top end guilds (splitfarming heroic long existed before titanforging), that many guilds go normal or even heroic to purposely get gear upgrades.

You say that you doubt people do it outside of top guilds, and I say that I know most Mythic raiders clear heroic each week for both legendaries, AP from bosses not on Mythic farm and titanforges. I myself have 940 Titanforged heroic tier legs and until a week ago a 930 Titanforged heroic Thurible. My guild raids Mythic 6 hours a week yet half of the raiding team show up on their mains for a Friday casual heroic clear, something we most certainly wouldn't do on anything but alts (if at all) if it wasn't for the chance of Titanforging. I'd also say that we get one or two 930+ Titanforged items every single clear with high certainty.

Basically, you lose out on a lot more [loot, AP, legendaries] than some of you might think if you don't at least run the difficulty below what your guild has cleared or is currently progressing on.

Titanforging is fun for most players but it's also a bane for those at the very top level. My suggestion would be to let any drops [world, instance, raid] Titanforge to the heroic item level of the current tier, and to cap Heroic wf/tf at Mythic base ilvl, and finally cap wf/tf for Mythic raid items at 10-15 ilvls above base ilvl. On top of that Mythic+ has to provide an incentive along with a decent alternative progression path, so an increased chance of higher item level loot the higher you go would be a good compromise.

[Aggrophobic]

Did you not realize that as subs grew, the loot system also became easier? Badge gear in TBC, then Wrath with Valor points. As other people have already told you, Mythic does reward you with better ilvl gear, as well as a unique appearance. I'm sorry if that is not enough for you, but again as Mythic is only 5% or less of the population, it is not a demographic worth caring much about.

Did they? Where did you get this info from?
Oh, thats right. You made it up.

[Raiju]

No, this is simply not true.

Look at practically any first kills of the first few bosses (anywhere from top 50 to top 150), substract 5 average itemlvls for legendaries (yes, that's how much legendaries add), and you will get numbers that are signficanty below 930 average.

If your wannabe mythic guild needs 930 average itemlvl to even kill Goroth, then the harsh truth is that mythic isn't for you.

According to you nearly every guild in the top 200 is wannabe.

[Kaver]

Saying that loot should not be the reason for doing mythic raids is very small minded. People have their own reasons and for some it's loot and for others it's the challenge (or the combination of the two of course). In my opinion mythic loot should always be better than heroic. But I understand (but dont approve) why Blizzard think it's bad for business to make the gap larger. The majority of the players in WoW do not go into mythic raiding and Blizzard will most likely do their "business model" in order to please the majority of the player base.

Blizzard is a "money making" company and they will do whatever is needed to increase profit. Titanforging and Legendaries (legion legendaries) is a product of this. It's not about what is fair.

Sadly, I think titanforge or similar systems are here to stay and I don't believe Blizzard will allow the power-gap between good and bad players to increase. (sorry for using the term "bad players". I hope I'm not offending anybody)

[Kaesebrezen]

According to you nearly every guild in the top 200 is wannabe.

Uhm, what?

Those guilds all had itemlvls of about ~918-922 (with 970 legendaries included) when they killed any of the first few bosses. When they killed those bosses, they offered more than enough reward in terms of itemlvl.

You won't find first kills with average 930 on any of the first half of bosses in the top 200.

In my opinion mythic loot should always be better than heroic. But I understand (but dont approve) why Blizzard think it's bad for business to make the gap larger

The fact is, it is better. Average itemlvl of mythic raider vs. heroic raider shows that clearly.

Looking at this thread, several suggestion were "cap heroic at 930 titanforge, which is +15 lvls", and at the same time saying "mythic starts at 930, but you get 20-25 levels of titanforging".

Clearly mythic raiders want a much bigger power gap between them and the rest of the player base, not just better rewards (which they do get).

[WhippWhapp]

I always have to laugh when I see posts like this. The chance of that happening is amazingly small. You've never seen someone completely decked out in LFR TF gear. You might see someone that only raids LFR have decent ilevel because they also run Mythic+ though. I've seen a handful of screenshots of max level TF items from LFR during Nighthold but nobody ever has more than 1 LFR piece that TFs really high. It's THAT rare. When people see it they flip their shit and show people here and on reddit. Extremely rare.

Lets me real here, as Mythic raiders we make up the extreme minority. There are more competitive pet battlers than there are Mythic raiders. For all the talk of how PvP is completely dead in WoW there are more PvPers than us. We are such a small minority, we get the highest base ilevel gear because we do the hardest content. We get mounts and achievements and we raid Mythic because we enjoy raiding Mythic.

Nobody should care if someone outside of their raid gets a nice piece of gear. I have to tell you I really don't care if some pleb gets a couple nice pieces that are around the same item level as the base item level of every single piece of gear that drops for us. Doesn't bother me. I think titanforging is great for the game, it's great for everyone that's not a Mythic raider and Blizzard shouldn't gut the system to cater to us.

At worst they could just cap it 5~ ilevels below current tier Mythic base and then Mythic raiders wouldn't obsess over it. Re-adjust every so often like they do with the dungeons. Going back to the old way of gear just warforging 5/10 levels would feel like punishing the 97% for the insecurities of the 3%. The only reason to have any issue with TF is if you're in that 3% or if you're a super hardcore Asmongold fan and believe every word that comes out of his mouth for some reason.

This guy is 100% correct - the only thing you should say about another person's loot is "congratulations!".

[Raiju]

Those guilds all had itemlvls of about ~918-922 (with 970 legendaries included) when they killed any of the first few bosses. When they killed those bosses, they offered more than enough reward in terms of itemlvl.

You won't find first kills with average 930 on any of the first half of bosses in the top 200.

And the rest of the bosses? How guilds were averaging over 930 on avatar? How he was still considered ridiculous even then?

As a side note, even the world first guilds were entering over 925 average on the FIRST bosses. Your numbers are completely made up.

[kamuimac]

Isn't that kind of completely ridiculous that someone who has mythic on farm should still want to run heroic or even normal for possible upgrades? Running trivial content is not fun, that's exactly what this uncapped TF system promotes. Getting potentially BiS loot from trivial content makes no sense in regards to the reward structure nor does it provide good and engaging gameplay.

Cap TF at +15 and call it a day. It would still allow people to get potential upgrades from farm content and allow them to overgear bosses should they get stuck somewhere (which is iirc one of the main reasons for the TF system), but not completely fuck up the reward structure.

wasnt that more ridiculus that someone who wants to do some old content with his friends couldnt possible get any upgrades out of it ?
\

[Kaesebrezen]

As a side note, even the world first guilds were entering over 925 average on the FIRST bosses. Your numbers are completely made up.

The top guilds obviously have higher itemlvl then the ones below them? They do splitfarming to the extreme. If you go higher in the top 100/200, you will see firstkills (on the early bosses) with lower itemlvls then the topguilds.

I also said you should substract the +5 average itemlvl every player gets through legendaries at 970.

And the rest of the bosses? How guilds were averaging over 930 on avatar? How he was still considered ridiculous even then?

That's a boss design/tuning issue. That mistress, avatar and KJ are poorly designed/tuned bosses should be obvious at this point.

[Raiju]

The top guilds obviously have higher itemlvl then the ones below them? They do splitfarming to the extreme. If you go higher in the top 100/200, you will see firstkills (on the early bosses) with lower itemlvls then the topguilds.

I also said you should substract the +5 average itemlvl every player gets through legendaries at 970.

As you go down the kill list average ilvl increases since it takes more and more time (= clears) to kill them.

Why am I even arguing with people who don't even appear to raid, at all.

And no, you said including.