so hows frost now?

[Deleted]

tried a low haste heavy mastery build. did pretty good but to be honest, any combo i use of stats/builds i usually am top 3 no matter the fight.

i think i am just able to get the best out of frost while many posters here are mediocre

(which is fine but the problem is when you don't realise you are mediocre and think the class is the problem when it is just you)

[hellhamster]

tried a low haste heavy mastery build. did pretty good but to be honest, any combo i use of stats/builds i usually am top 3 no matter the fight.

i think i am just able to get the best out of frost while many posters here are mediocre

(which is fine but the problem is when you don't realise you are mediocre and think the class is the problem when it is just you)

There's plenty of 99% parsers in this thread claiming frost is garbage, including myself. What now?

[Deleted]

There's plenty of 99% parsers in this thread claiming frost is garbage, including myself. What now?

Just ignore him. If he keeps trolling like this he will soon again be banned. Not worth answering to this kind of nonsense.

[Raiz]

There's plenty of 99% parsers in this thread claiming frost is garbage, including myself. What now?

Tbh, I'm really wondering why there are a lot of whiners or top parsers doing way less dps than their unholy counterpart when I'm simming roughly the same results as Ange. Is it because of heavy movements fights ? Or is it because they're still not used to it (I highly doubt it, but could be possible) ?

[Schizoide]

If I had to guess, it would be because sims cannot be meaningfully used to stack-rank across specs or classes. Ever. Under any circumstances.

A quick glance at WCL will tell you that Unholy is way ahead of Frost in every difficulty. WCL is based on actual parses, not sims which again, cannot be used across specs and classes ever. Anyone doing that is either deliberately trolling or just clueless.

Now it's true that WCL displays sample bias and Frost is technically better than it looks on the parses, because all the great players that care about their performance are playing Unholy. But that's impossible to quantify and not super meaningful. The overall picture, that Unholy is much better than Frost right now, holds true.

[Raiz]

Indeed, but then, why rely so much on raidbots if the difference is that huge ? There's like 20% difference even. If so, why are we still blindly following raidbots for something like 1% difference ? I can understand for a few gear pieces that make no impact in our rotation, but legendaries ? Now it's starting to worry me a bit. What if, for some reason, I could do a little better in reality if I had played for example (I'm taking an extreme one here) another legendary but taktriktrixkoulkerpads and cold heart ?

On another note, I believe triktroukrix is gonna be the next Battlefield CounterStrike (if you know who I mean).

[hellhamster]

Tbh, I'm really wondering why there are a lot of whiners or top parsers doing way less dps than their unholy counterpart when I'm simming roughly the same results as Ange. Is it because of heavy movements fights ? Or is it because they're still not used to it (I highly doubt it, but could be possible) ?

I really don't know, I'm speaking for myself but possibly frost players are worse at playing unholy and vice versa. Or maybe the fights lasting ~2 to 2 and a half minutes means that extra CoF DA is doing work, especially combined with the crazy first minute burst unholy has during lust.

I know I'm doing marginally more as unholy than frost considering I'm a way better player as frost and I don't even have the fucking tikitaka shoulders and I'm behind on AP.

[Schizoide]

Indeed, but then, why rely so much on raidbots if the difference is that huge ? There's like 20% difference even. If so, why are we still blindly following raidbots for something like 1% difference ?

If you spec frost right now, you strongly prefer the gameplay. That doesn't mean you don't care about playing correctly, doing it right, even though all else being equal you would have put out higher numbers as Unholy.

[Katchii]

If you spec frost right now, you strongly prefer the gameplay. That doesn't mean you don't care about playing correctly, doing it right, even though all else being equal you would have put out higher numbers as Unholy.

I strongly prefer Frost over Unholy, aesthetics mainly but I also just don't want to play it as a pet class, so I'll play Frost over Unholy even if it parses lower. And right now, Frost doesn't even seem to be parsing THAT much lower than Unholy.

[Schizoide]

Well, it's 6-8% behind, which is substantial. Unholy is top 3rd and Frost is bottom 3rd.

[RuneDK]

tried a low haste heavy mastery build. did pretty good but to be honest, any combo i use of stats/builds i usually am top 3 no matter the fight.

i think i am just able to get the best out of frost while many posters here are mediocre

(which is fine but the problem is when you don't realise you are mediocre and think the class is the problem when it is just you)

No the problem is you being exceptionally dense. I was top three to five in my guild too....but that's not indicative of how the spec performs in the grand scheme of things. But again you're too dense to understand that.

[Cempa]

Not to derail the thread but won't the question be answered first week of the new raid? And did Blizz not clearly state they will tune numbers as data comes in?

- - - Updated - - -

No the problem is you being exceptionally dense. I was top three to five in my guild too....but that's not indicative of how the spec performs in the grand scheme of things. But again you're too dense to understand that.

Quantify your statement with numbers please, what was the DPS of the top x3 or x5 in your guild run and doing what content and at what ilvl?

[Raiz]

If you spec frost right now, you strongly prefer the gameplay. That doesn't mean you don't care about playing correctly, doing it right, even though all else being equal you would have put out higher numbers as Unholy.

I'm not sure you understand my point. I'm just saying the difference in DPS between the logs and our sims is kind of flawed. I actually like all specs. I just don't understand why in reality, we're putting higher number than frost. If the sims is telling us wrong results, then what about the differents legendaries you're wearing ? For example, are the shoulders the best legendaries ? If the sims shows only a 5% difference between, say, boots and shoulders, then it's perfectly possible that in reality you're putting more numbers with boots (like 20% more if we compare the logs frost/unholy).
I hope I'm making myself more clear about the sims problems.

Quantify your statement with numbers please, what was the DPS of the top x3 or x5 in your guild run and doing what content and at what ilvl?

As much as I hate RuneDK and his Frost bias, he made a perfectly valid point. There's absolutely no need to bring numbers, because it's all relative. I can be in a small group and still perform top 1 with the worst class and worst dps spec in my group. Does that mean this class / spec is good ? No. It's called common sense.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure you understand my point. I'm just saying the difference in DPS between the logs and our sims is kind of flawed. I actually like all specs. I just don't understand why in reality, we're putting higher number than frost. If the sims is telling us wrong results, then what about the differents legendaries you're wearing ? For example, are the shoulders the best legendaries ? If the sims shows only a 5% difference between, say, boots and shoulders, then it's perfectly possible that in reality you're putting more numbers with boots (like 20% more if we compare the logs frost/unholy).
I hope I'm making myself more clear about the sims problems.

As much as I hate RuneDK and his Frost bias, he made a perfectly valid point. There's absolutely no need to bring numbers, because it's all relative. I can be in a small group and still perform top 1 with the worst class and worst dps spec in my group. Does that mean this class / spec is good ? No. It's called common sense.

Sims are not only about the number at the end. With new Sets, Talents, Legendaries etc the APL will often be adjusted to these new things. Sims allow to determine best (theoretical) execution (Rotation). For Frost for e.g. there are pretty straight conditions when to use Cold Heart for max dps.

There will always be bias between sims and logs. And to determine whats best we need to combine both with common sense.

[Yhcti]

I kinda hate how reliant unholy is on leggies and dark arbiter, without them it seems subpar. my frost spec is 100k above unholy atm because I don't have shoulders. I prefer Frost any way as I'm casual and it seems to just melt +10's and lfr/norm/heroics. Yes the DA burst is amazing but I don't feel I lack it that much as the fights are so short I get away with CoI + Sindras Fury for my opener. Just need wrists now! :~)

[Deleted]

No the problem is you being exceptionally dense. I was top three to five in my guild too....but that's not indicative of how the spec performs in the grand scheme of things. But again you're too dense to understand that.

Turn this around, though. What does how the spec performs "in the grand scheme of things" have to do with your enjoyment of said spec in your raid, in your guild? What do these parses from people you don't have anything to do with impact you at all, in your raid, alongside the people you play with?

I think the guy you're responding to has the healthier attitude, honestly. I mean, he's enjoying playing the spec he likes best, whereas you are getting bent out of shape over what are essentially spreadsheets of data from people you don't even know and don't in reality relate to you, or your raid. At all.

And he's the dense one?

[Raiz]

There will always be bias between sims and logs. And to determine whats best we need to combine both with common sense.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Icedcoffeee]

Besides, most people only sim single target patchwerk, whereas most fights have adds, movement, downtime, buffs, etc.

[Rhaxus]

Snip

sounds to me like you guys are playing with a wholly different mindset.
i can relate more to Rune, since i believe that even in non-progress guilds, everyone should always bring 100%, since raiding is a group effort.
if your class has a spec that is stronger than the other(s) given the same effort and skill, then i expect you to play that one, so that everyone in the raid has a better chance of clearing said content.

i experience a second raid with an alt char that follows the mindset that j0ust is describing: everyone plays what they enjoy rather than what would be effective and not everyone is giving it his all.
this is fine if you don't care about killing bosses, but anyone hoping for gear/ clear will experience runs like these as torture. eg: i had to witness 40 wipes on mistress hc with this alt group, because they refused to try it without 1 or 2 of the more atrocious players in the group. the next week we got her on the first try because the others were absent...

[RuneDK]

Turn this around, though. What does how the spec performs "in the grand scheme of things" have to do with your enjoyment of said spec in your raid, in your guild? What do these parses from people you don't have anything to do with impact you at all, in your raid, alongside the people you play with?

I think the guy you're responding to has the healthier attitude, honestly. I mean, he's enjoying playing the spec he likes best, whereas you are getting bent out of shape over what are essentially spreadsheets of data from people you don't even know and don't in reality relate to you, or your raid. At all.

And he's the dense one?

Spreading misinformation because you personally do well in your guild and continuing to do so is being dense. I am not trying to tell him not to enjoy Frost. I am exceptionally Frost biased and enjoy it more than Unholy. However that still doesn't mean the spec on a grand scale is performing well. Yes those people have no impact on my personal group, but that doesn't mean the spec is performing as he's saying it is. It's a bottom dweller right now. You can still be top 3 in your specific raid with any spec. That much is fine and on most skill levels outside top 100 is pretty much expected.

With that said, spreading misinformation or saying people are just mediocre cause I do good in my raid is just plain stupid. I have performed in the top end of every guild I've been in as frost regardless of where it is on the spreadsheet. That doesn't mean the spec was good, it meant I was better than my peers. I and any knowledgeable DK would never come in here and say I do fine in my raid so you're all just mediocre. He doesn't realize his personal data is anecdotal. The real data, while suffering from the best players not playing Frost right now, is definitely lower than the spec really is. However logs are the only hard data we have.