Heroic raiding should be harder. Reason: Titanforging

[Deleted]

Just get rid of warforging/titanforging or limit it to "max +10ilvl upg"...

The whole loot system in Legion is pretty horrible.

[Ehrenpanzer]

You do understand that ilevel always existed, right? It's how item budgets are decided. It's not some new addition to the game in MoP or whenever it was they let you see it directly in the game.

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So basically what you're saying is that WF/TF doesn't even fulfill its (new) purpose? Interesting.

It really doesnt do what people seem to think it does. You can have max titanforged gear in every slot, if you arent soaking shit, or standing in the right spots on KJ you are going to wipe..... Titanforged gear does not mean you can just ignore the balls on Maiden etc and so on....

What that system DOES is take out the funnel of "if you want shiny shit, get raiding the newest raid or get nothing". Your buddy wants to run mythic VoTW? Go help him, you might get lucky, do world quests, only have a small guild? do mythic+ as a group etc.... Its there as an alternative gearing treadmill to raiding, and as a small supplement to raiding, its not intended to be the magical cure-all for the fact a group cant do mechanics.

[Tradu]

It really doesnt do what people seem to think it does. You can have max titanforged gear in every slot, if you arent soaking shit, or standing in the right spots on KJ you are going to wipe..... Titanforged gear does not mean you can just ignore the balls on Maiden etc and so on....

What that system DOES is take out the funnel of "if you want shiny shit, get raiding the newest raid or get nothing". Your buddy wants to run mythic VoTW? Go help him, you might get lucky, do world quests, only have a small guild? do mythic+ as a group etc.... Its there as an alternative gearing treadmill to raiding, and as a small supplement to raiding, its not intended to be the magical cure-all for the fact a group cant do mechanics.

Why do you need a small chance to get gear upgrades to convince you to help a friend?

[Ehrenpanzer]

Why do you need a small chance to get gear upgrades to convince you to help a friend?

You shouldnt, BUT, this is a gear treadmill game... and lets be honest, most people will be more inclined to help their buddy run something well below their level if there is the possibility of them getting something out of it.

[Adlian]

Imagine the TF system IRL. Working on a minimum wage position and your monthly payment is based on RNG, sometimes you get the same amount but sometimes you are getting more because you are lucky.

I cant imagine that.

[Gaidax]

Imagine the TF system IRL. Working on a minimum wage position and your monthly payment is based on RNG, sometimes you get the same amount but sometimes you are getting more because you are lucky.

I cant imagine that.

It's called bonuses and sometimes they are based on sheer luck, especially in marketing where some lead can lead to a big deal and big bonus.

Also tying RL to game lulz.

[impending doom]

Titanforging for raid drops is not a problem here, most people who have been clearing heroic ToS for 1-2 months, have only 0-2 titanforged raid drops, that makes no real difference.

Bigger effect comes from weekly M+ cache, although that's not the same because it's guaranteed titanforged. And even bigger effect comes from those several nerfs to bosses, but I guess it's "ok" when the new raid is close.

I do agree that the heroic raids could be tuned harder, because that would allow more people to access challenging content, because it's flexible raid-size and not realm restricted. Either that or make mythic raids for 2 different sizes and/or cross-realm.

[Twdft]

I get the Mythic item, even with WF on and a smile comes onto my face but then realize IT'S STILL LOWER than my HC TF..... There is no joy in killing the boss on a harder difficulty and never be able to upgrade

So once upon a time luck smiled at you and gave you a 5 times upgraded HC item. And instead of enjoying that amazing luck (which btw helped you kill the boss on mythic) you decide to be salty that you need your mythic item at least 3x upgraded to be better?

[RoKPaNda]

Oh jeeze this bullshit again. You've watched an Asmongold video and now you believe that titanforging is somehow an issue for you as a non-Mythic raider. It's not. If Heroic is trivial for you after running it twice then you SHOULD be raiding Mythic.

And no, children, the solution to the problems of us Mythic raiders isn't nerfing Titanforging into the ground, it's just capping it 5 ilevels below current tier Mythic and adjusting each tier. That's it. 5 ilevels below Mythic base would solve all the issues for us that actually have TF problems. Easy fix without gutting the system for 95% of players.

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Imagine the TF system IRL. Working on a minimum wage position and your monthly payment is based on RNG, sometimes you get the same amount but sometimes you are getting more because you are lucky.

I cant imagine that.

That is an awful analogy, however if you're doing minimum wage (LFR) the chance of getting a Mythic level TF is moire on par with winning your local lottery

[Echocho]

Then join a different guild. It's not my fault this thread is built on a faulty assumption.

You ever heard of friends? Sometimes joining a new guild isn't an option. I'm not going to abandon all my friends just in order to do the same thing I just did only with bigger numbers, it's the exact same instance.

[Hellshout]

So once upon a time luck smiled at you and gave you a 5 times upgraded HC item. And instead of enjoying that amazing luck (which btw helped you kill the boss on mythic) you decide to be salty that you need your mythic item at least 3x upgraded to be better?

Mate, the fact that you found saltiness in my comment means you need to log off the web from time to time, get some fresh air, Lord knows your tears are from the Dead Sea.
Most, like almost all, play this game in order to achieve something. And the reward for killing a boss is the item. You get that super joy at start, but when months and months and months pass and you still get nothing better, the joy fades. I don't need my mythic item to be 3x better, I need my reward to mean something because that's why I'm spending time in this game.
Do you think getting X salary as a Junior is better than getting X-1 as a Senior?
Again, I believe it's normal for gear upgrades to be linear, not exponential. Normally, you should get a better item once you kill a harder boss.


Have a wonderful day, full of joy and sugar and sunshine. Sweet enough for you?
/s

[Deleted]

That's not because they didn't get easier, it's because they didn't get shorter. The time to kill the boss from the first week, to the last week, was practically unchanged. It was obnoxious to spend the same amount of time on as we did on our first kill, on our 40th kill. It took hours to clear through farm content.

Now that's a load of bullshit. Name 1 boss in Nighthold that didn't get shorter with gear. (protip: all of them did).

[jon234]

Now that's a load of bullshit. Name 1 boss in Nighthold that didn't get shorter with gear. (protip: all of them didn't).

Actually none of them did if they did the times were minuscule look at the logs during the tier as it went on people have proved this already
example
Preach does the math you are too lazy to do
https://youtu.be/i1YLx62dih4?t=11m31s
Starts at about 11 minutes in
( in before random youtuber math find another source )
your other option is the entire warcraft logs data base of every single mythic fight that was logged through out the tier and math it yourself.

don't post false information

[Deleted]

Actually none of them did if they did the times were minuscule look at the logs during the tier as it went on people have proved this already
example
Preach does the math you are too lazy to do
https://youtu.be/i1YLx62dih4?t=11m31s
Starts at about 11 minutes in
( in before random youtuber math find another source )
your other option is the entire warcraft logs data base of every single mythic fight that was logged through out the tier and math it yourself.

don't post false information

Just go to WCL and check the speedkill rankings for 7.0-7.1.5 compared to 7.2;

Skorpyron 2:45 vs 1:25
CA 2:41 vs 1:28
Trilliax 3:09 vs 2:02 etc.

Next you probably claim that people just got better at the game in those few months or that blizz nerfed the bosses' HP by 40%

Also there's no "Math" in that Preach video, he just shows some graphs with no sources, no math, no nothing.

[Sentynel]

Title says it all. After a week or two, you can faceroll the heroic bosses. One should not be forced into mythic if he wants a somewhat challenging content.

There is no challenge in Heroic anymore, gear power level becomes inflated with titanforging. It leaves one desiring for a harder content, which Mythic raiding can not satisfy due to logistics constraints (20 people or no raid for you).

Keep Mythic as it is, but make Heroic raiding more challenging than that, be it by higher hp% pool or more unforgiving mechanics. Balance it around titanforging, or revert titanforge back to warforge (+6ilv).


PS: Free loot is not a problem, the problem is when it trivializes a difficulty that was suposed to be somewhat challenging.

Having 910 catch-up tokens, 970 legendaries, 960ish weapons make Heroic a faceroll. You know, we are at the end of the expansion now.

ToS HC is supposed to be a zergfest at this point.

[Mulled]

I can agree, get rid of titanforging this should NOT be happening

[Gaidax]

Actually none of them did if they did the times were minuscule look at the logs during the tier as it went on people have proved this already
example
Preach does the math you are too lazy to do
https://youtu.be/i1YLx62dih4?t=11m31s
Starts at about 11 minutes in
( in before random youtuber math find another source )
your other option is the entire warcraft logs data base of every single mythic fight that was logged through out the tier and math it yourself.

don't post false information

Some shitty YouTuber posted nonsense - HOLY CRAP THIS MUST BE TROO CUZ HE DOES VIDEOS M8!

You seriously think better gear did not make fights considerably shorter and easier? For reals?

[jon234]

Just go to WCL and check the speedkill Irrelevant as this isn't what was used to calculate the actual numbers rankings for 7.0-7.1.5 compared to 7.2;

Skorpyron 2:45 vs 1:25
CA 2:41 vs 1:28
Trilliax 3:09 vs 2:02 etc.

Next you probably claim that people just got better at the game in those few months or that blizz nerfed the bosses' HP by 40%

Also there's no "Math" in that Preach video, he just shows some graphs with no sources, no math, no nothing.

I doubt you raided Nighthold mythic then,
First the video itself was released about a month after WF gul'dan
secondly
This was before the revision to artifacts so once you maxed your weapon that was it
example
Skorpyron at the time couldn't be zerged due to the DR ( speed kills mean nothing when the video is analyzing the length of kills compared to first kill to farm and calculating averages )
Just looking at the times of the 27 kills from 7.1-7.1.5 the average of those comes out to ~4.5 minutes
Chronomatic
same concept take the average of the kill times and the numbers come out roughly the same in the video also mechanics at the time
litterally everyboss at the time before an overhaul to the Artifact system didn't become quicker there is math he takes the averages of kill times from the first kills to farm and does the math. stop selecting what you want to hear.

Some shitty YouTuber posted nonsense - HOLY CRAP THIS MUST BE TROO CUZ HE DOES VIDEOS M8!

You seriously think better gear did not make fights considerably shorter and easier? For reals?

I doubt you raided Nighthold mythic during then and no they didn't Krosus, Trilliax, Skorpyron and about all of the nighthold fights before any remote changes such as the artifact overhaul would like a word with you,

[Deleted]

I doubt you raided Nighthold mythic then,
First the video itself was released about a month after WF gul'dan
secondly
This was before the revision to artifacts so once you maxed your weapon that was it
example
Skorpyron at the time couldn't be zerged due to the DR ( speed kills mean nothing when the video is analyzing the length of kills compared to first kill to farm and calculating averages )
Just looking at the times of the 27 kills from 7.1-7.1.5 the average of those comes out to ~4.5 minutes
Chronomatic
same concept take the average of the kill times and the numbers come out roughly the same in the video also mechanics at the time
litterally everyboss at the time before an overhaul to the Artifact system didn't become quicker there is math he takes the averages of kill times from the first kills to farm and does the math. stop selecting what you want to hear.

What the fuck are you even saying? Where is the "math"? Did he track individual guilds' kill from week to week and compare the kill times? There is literally 0 proof in his video or in anything you have posted, and is the opposite of what Warcraftlogs data says.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Heroic is just the normal of old... it was never about a really hard challenge just a challenge.

Really i think heroic is what it always was. Minus the last few ramping up to near mythic/mythic and the first few being normalish levels. Mythic just gives you a full instance of ramped up. Normal gives you a full instance of normal. Heroic just gives you an instance of heroic.