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Alliance involving itself into Horde's war with another faction doesn't make that war a start of Alliance-Horde war. Especially when by the time Alliance got involved the Forsaken already won the war against just Gilneas and forced the Gilneans to flee. Alliance got involved only after the land was already conquered by the Horde (which is yet another disparity between your comparison to WWI). And after the Forsaken were pushed out, they managed to stop the Alliance offensive, then forced them to surrender. Gilneas is a wasteland.
Does not starting a pointless war make you nurturing and caring now? And since when is starting such a war consistent with Sylvanas' character? She's always been pragmatic. The only time she has waged a war that was in the end futile was during the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas when she was on the defensive and she thought they were all going to die anyway, so she decided to at least make Arthas pay for each inch of ground. She sat out of the Alliance-Horde war. After Alliance stretched its forces paper thin and used a lot of resources to make a front in Horde's Kalimdor heartland a thing. She had all the opportunity in the world to attack at least Menethil's Harbor, which even ignoring Alliance's current focus elsewhere, was in no position to defend against Forsaken army having partially sunk. Sylvanas has never been chaotic evil doing evil for evil's sake. There is no consistency whatsoever here.
And we need a faction-based villain why, exactly?
Mindless hatred like Northwatch attacking Barrens out of the blue? And even Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale (which wasn't even the start of the war) was to secure resources necessary for Horde's survival, after Night Elves broke a trade treaty over an event that happened months earlier, was conducted by people who started a coup against a Horde race and which was supposed to facilitate peace between the factions.
It's unknown if it's a fate that awaits all undead though. We've seen some go to better places. Besides, there's no indication Sylvanas shared what she saw with anyone. Though given the uncertainty of what awaits one after undeath, she could indeed come forward with what happened to her as a political ploy, even if it's not actually a universal trait of undeath.
Those are very good points. So you can rest assured Blizzard didn't spend even a second thinking about them.
Talking shit doesn't automatically mean you can do what you're bullshitting about. Given how Malfurion and Velen sat that one out, it's unlikely that even the Alliance leaders that were actually present would have walked out of there alive.
Because doing it with smaller non-faction threats like Zandalari or even Azshara (comparatively to the Legion and the incoming Void she's not that much of a deal) is impossible?
As @Coconut said, Stormheim is where you depart from Orgrimmar/Stormwind. And while there is uncertainty in regards to the player, since they could have gone to Broken Isles from elsewhere, the Forsaken ship was part of that fleet. The shipwreck from Azsuna is probably how Genn picked Sylvanas' trail after the initial battle after which Sylvanas disappeared. Besides, "no good" is not a justification for an attack when all you have is five sentences that are so smudged you can't even read even them properly.
That was her outlook shortly after Arthas killed her. More than a decade ago.
This goes directly against the Word of God on the matter.
When did she say she wants to force that on the Forsaken who don't want it again? Because this snippet is the first time she learned that some Forsaken may want to just rot away and that didn't include a mention of her forcing them to live forever. She doesn't even have a mean to produce non-rotting Forsaken on a mass scale right now.
Graves are a thing. Also the main source of the new Forsaken. And weirdly enough, Southshore was Blighted. Which does not produce corpses that can be resurrected.
When has Sylvanas ever started a war?
You mean the rules that haven't existed at the level of cultural development that's comparable to Warcraft?
Because differing ideologically is impossible. Even though that's what Godfrey actually talks about.
First of all, that's not what plot armor is, secondly wat.
She has only 4 Val'kyr left and last time it took 3 to resurrect her. Also, you opened this sentence with an explanation of how it's not plot armor. Plot armor requires the internal rule of the universe to be bent. Warcraft has necromancy. Sylvanas, as you yourself admitted, canonically has access to necromancy. Her getting resurrected literally cannot be plot armor.
In case no one posted this yet. The cover for the "Before the Storm" book would be revealed soon too.
https://twitter.com/DelReyBooks/stat...80753667457024
I just imagine the Horde and Alliance have always been at war, always. It's just us the players are presented poorly in how we tie into the conflict.
Sometimes we have to be fighting the other side, sometimes we ally ourselves. But I feel like it's more us the heroes allying with other heroes, the only time the two armies of Horde and Alliance allied was during Broken Shore and Siege of Orgrimmar.
Like despite the U.S. being at war with Germany, we still respected and gave immigration status to Albert Einstein before becoming a US citizen. Einstein being a "hero" in this analogy.
So I don't think we the heroes are drafted into the war, we just happen to be of a specific race.
At cold mind i realized something. She cant do it NOW. Not with Saurfang and Baine ready to challenge her at the first mistake and the Council that is undermining her in Undercity. She would need to deal with them and have a good reason for evryone in the Horde to attack Stormwind.
Also she's short in money. She need to get those before any assault. So maybe we can get past this. Maybe. Let's hope so.
Given how Blizzard saw it necessary to give Blood Elves spotlight comparable only to Orcs as far as the Horde plot goes, weird choice of an example here.
But you haven't established not wanting to be revived in Godfrey's case yet.
And you don't see the difference in killing a fuckton of people with one weapon of, you know, mass destruction, as opposed to killing more people with thousands of strikes? Even though chemical weapons are prohibited because of the mass destruction aspect?
Page 11 opens up with you moving goalposts, whining about your personal boogeymen and ended with you making a stupid point about Lok'tar ogar. This is less of a gotcha moment you envisioned and more of forum masochism on your part.
And contrary to what you're bullshitting here, overall in this thread, the premise that it was about Jaina as envisioned by the OP wasn't generally agreed upon. Some posters just said it's unlikely for Varimathras to be up to date on things that happened after his departure from Azeroth, especially with him being imprisoned and tortured by the Legion. Particularly because he exhibited lack of knowledge about the exact circumstances of Sylvanas' rise to power in the text directed at the Horde. That some brilliant Alliance posters were unable to discern between that and saying he has to talk about Jaina is only proof of their illiteracy.
Now we know that Sylvanas may have wanted to do it for some time, which could have started when Varimathras was still around, but this is literally the newest piece of lore around. So it wasn't exactly a factor during 7.3 PTR.
Good job once again embarrassing yourself.
Other than the OP, who? Where are you getting the plural from?
Like you straw-manning posts from months ago? Damn, your life must be really empty if you're satisfied with scraps like this.
Gotta need a quote on that one too.
With spider eggs customization option to keep it in line with Hillsbrad quests. That would be swell.
This is a fallacious argument. You don't kneed to know how to cook to know you've been served burned meal.
That one gave me Daenerys flashbacks.
Well, in defense of the snippet, they can not want to be immortal while still being typical Forsaken bastards otherwise. Besides, not everyone on the Council shared that position.
Embrace the Singularity! For the Machine God!
That doesn't make this that much better.
There can be only one reply to this.
And then lose all the treasure during the escape, like Jack Sparrow in the last Pirates of the Caribbean movie.
How do you work around being a walking corpse? And there have been all kind of Forsaken with all kinds of outlooks. Some not giving a shit either way, some even rejecting the Forsaken state and/or Sylvanas. Going all the way back to Vanilla. What you propose isn't even new.
Quests? You'd lose Blizzard's interest at the proposal they'd need to spend time remodeling Stormwind or making a new hub for humans.
Or they already forgot and not even out of convenience, but because they can't be arsed to keep up to date on their own story, which is why they won't recheck stuff for matching the previous story either. Then again the outcome being bound to be shit is no reason not to complain about the most glaring offences.
The Alliance had WMDs even before that. Gnomes nuked their own city. Now, that could be a reason why they don't use radiation bombs anymore, but other WMDs, not so much.
That one is actually explainable! In Cata Stormwind sent farmers to WPL to get more crops. So perhaps thanks to Druids cleansing the farms with magic, the soil got magical properties and the farms grew new crops in record time, with record yields, allowing Stormwind to secure immense amounts of grain that will last them for a decade. At least then wasting troops right next to Undercity which was bound to get them killed would have some degree of sense.
I'm not sure if Ashenvale is comparable. Ashenvale was right at the doorstep of the main hub of Horde power on the planet. No big issue with deployment here. The fact that the Night Elves, their border forces at that, were able to hold against an army that should have steamrolled them is the surprising part here. Forest Song is just Blizz having to finish the story somewhere and being lazy at the execution. The worst part of how Ashenvale was handled is the extended story though. Because when you add the various novels about it, the status of Ashenvale seems to have been attached to a yo-yo.
Never agreed more with a hashtag.
I was referring to Varian starting the WotLK-MoP war in Undercity and Northwatch being the first one to break the post-WotLK truce actually. Though yeah, when it comes to post-MoP, Alliance struck the first major blow too.
All good points, all lost on the train wreck that's Blizzard writing.
and no one has established him wanting it. If you don't know they want to be brought back as a rotting corpse, you don't bring them back... Do you understand the definition of consent? It means they need to say yes, if they don't or can't say anything, the answer is no by default.
More deaths is more deaths... I don't see how killing less people is worse.And you don't see the difference in killing a fuckton of people with one weapon of, you know, mass destruction, as opposed to killing more people with thousands of strikes? Even though chemical weapons are prohibited because of the mass destruction aspect?
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Same way Leonid Bartholomew or Meryl Winterstorm did - using it as an advantage and recognizing it for what it was, not wallowing in self-pity or spiteful hatred for one's own plight. I agree that the attitude has existed since Classic, but outside very few oblique mentions it's gotten very little screen time. The Desolate Council might be an indication that a large subset of the Forsaken are beginning to move past their more nihilistic or outright aggressive postures and into something more in keeping with true allies to the Horde. In my mind, I see the difference as a contrast between Sylvanas' platform of "I will use the Horde for my (and the Forsaken's) own ends" with "I wish to truly be part of and recognized within the Horde." That would be quite a sea change for the Forsaken insofar as messaging is concerned, IMO.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Last edited by Aucald; 2017-11-03 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Received Infraction
You're the one who tried to use him as an example. It's up to you to make it a justified example. Otherwise what is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Also, not only does the concept not apply to corpses, by default, your original premise was consenting to being resurrected as Forsaken. Stop moving goalposts. And the thing is, the choice to become Forsaken happens after resurrection and is very much a choice.
You don't see how you're arguing against your earlier point of how Blight is the devil?
Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently. Where exactly is the line between "working around undeath" and "working with undeath"? What part of what Leonid, for example, did warranted the different terminology and prevented his actions from being phrased as working with undeath? And wanting to drop dead doesn't exactly strike me as some great desire to partner with anyone. Unless the Council wants to form a cult with the rest of the Horde culminating in mass ritual suicide.
Aye, i'd go into it but i'm kinda wired on coffee as i try to stay up and catch the blizzcon stream. That and i'd rather not spend 30-60 minutes going over forming a multi quote thing, i got better things to do with my time.
And hey, i see i got infracted for that last post! I happily accept that infraction, totally worth it.
Taking in perspective the setting. The impausibility of being dead having a cure is something that i'm pretty sure enters the Suspenssion of Disbelief treshold. But as some already said. The undeath actually being curable is not really relevant for the plot in this case.-The point is to actually have Forsaken who disagree with Sylvanas' actions and see undeath as something that it should not be passed, or generally to just oppose Sylvanas' autocracy.
Player gets to Broken Shore via Dalaran teleportation from abofe Karazhan... As an Alliance player, you literally go to Stormwind via the portal in Dalaran and your main mission is to secure Aegis in Stormheim HOWEVER, Rogers tells you about the Forsaken fleet with the suspect that Sylvanas might be in there. They're after Sylvanas because of the diary from Azsuna
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
The desperation of explaining why your narrative is a giant lie? Yay me, so desperate. As opposed to you, for whom straw-manning ancient posts counts as some gratification in life And perhaps instead of flailing around you could show me how have I embarrassed myself? Did you not move the goalpost from stating that the trust between factions will be obviously rebuilt to it just being an option in post #202? Did you not complain about certain people in that very same post? Did you not make a post about how victory or death is not followed because the Horde retreated from Broken Shore in post #210 even though the motto or its practice never said a word about retreat? Are you able to offer quotes of the great sways of people claiming Varimathras for sure talks about Jaina? Are you able to offer quotes of the great sways of people claiming Sylvanas would never consider invading Stormwind? I'm not sure why I should feel embarrassed about actually accurate portrayal of that thread. Then again writing fanfiction or forming alternative versions of the world we live in has never been my thing.
true tough, but see, sylvanas know she will never will be safe when Stormwind is so close to her, when the alliance wrath is so close to her, what if she think Gen could attack her? poison anduin against her? what best moment to destroy your enemy than now? after legion when thy are more fragile
who know what more things the book bring to things come to this? what im saying is, its not so absurd to imagine she going to invade SW
Not even Naaru could save Bridenbrad from undeath. Even before he actually died and turned undead. There's not much of a leeway that exists in established lore for curable undeath. Unless even higher powers get involved with the Forsaken for some reason. Plus I'm still not sure of the mechanics of curing rotting flesh. Or things like having someone else's jaw (or a piece of metal) sewn into your face. And while some political shifts among the Forsaken are a nice change, I'm not even sure how Aucald got undead wanting to be cured from a piece about undead not wanting to be immortal.
Diary taken from a ship that accompanied Sylvanas to Stormheim. Does Skybreaker move through time now? Besides, nothing in the chronology of things makes the attack against the Forsaken justifiable.
In an instant. Like WMD. Which is the point of WMDs and why they are regulated against. Shocking an enemy into surrendering isn't even the reason the person who brought nukes up painted them in negative light. This is not comparable to causing more casualties in a multitude of smaller attacks. You're all over the place right now and trying to defend nukes while condemning the Blight is nothing more than special pleading. Then again if you're already moving goalposts on one point, why not engage in other fallacies elsewhere, amirite?