What class balance should look like VS what's unacceptable.

[Octayvius]

I want us to have an actual conversation about what class balance means and what it should and shouldn't look like.

What it means is making many of the non viable specs, potentially viable and decent at best.
It does not mean making them as good as other pure dps specs and classes and it does not mean making them better than the other tanking classes.

What class balance should look like:

Seal of command increases your auto attack speed by 10% as well as its original extra swing proc.

Judgements returns 30% used on seals and judging them.

Righteous Fury gives you 30 mana per 5 seconds on top of the threat generated.

Star increases the damage of your next starfire by 5%

What class balance should NOT look like:

ADDING OR REMOVING ANY ABILITIES TO CLASSIC

CHANGING THE META OF CLASSES AND REMOVING HYBRID TAX

MAKING OTHER CLASSES OBSOLETE IN RAIDS


I'm trying to have an actual constructive conversation so aspects of the game don't get changed that we don't want changed or making it so blizzard makes these decisions for us and disregards our ideas.

If you're planning to post: That's not Vanilla.
Go to retail you retailer because you disagree with me
I can't enjoy the game if protein paladins can tank some adds and not lose all their mana

Please just save it and troll some other thread, I want this to actually be a useful talk that produces actual ideas not whiney sarcasm quibs.

[Regalbeast]

For the sake of playability and variety I think they should make certain specs viable and playable.

I DON'T think they should nerf or remove anything from classes that were viable in Vanilla.

[Octayvius]

Bumping for more.

[Deleted]

I really dont want any balancing but if we really must go with it then here are my ideas:

Paladin:
Ret: Something like 5% damage buff or more unique buff (maybe aura of some sort).
Prot: When your holy shield is active your jundgement taunts. This way prot warr would still be most reliable tank but Pala would be able to taunt "sometimes".

Shaman:
Ele: Crearcasting now proces after spell crits (this should help them save some mana) or more unique buff (maybe something with fire totems).
Enh: some random talent that reduces cost of your shocks after melee crit or something.

Druid:
Bala: upon casting innervate on other target you gain its effect too.
Feral Tank: 2-3% crit immunity somewhere in talents.
Feral DPS: I have no idea.

Priest:
Shadow: Nothing or like 5% dmg buff.

Warlock: Curse of Elements (or Improved Curse of Elements) now also reduces targets nature resistance.

In truth high nature resistance on bosses was main thing that kept ele shamans and boomkins away from raiding (mana problems were possible to overcome with consumables).

DPS druids, paladins, priests and shamans should be brought to the raids for thier utility and never for pure dps.

[Deleted]

I really dont want any balancing but if we really must go with it then here are my ideas:

Paladin:
Ret: Something like 5% damage buff or more unique buff (maybe aura of some sort).
Prot: When your holy shield is active your jundgement taunts. This way prot warr would still be most reliable tank but Pala would be able to taunt "sometimes".

Shaman:
Ele: Elemental Focus now proces after spell crits (this should help them save some mana) or more unique buff (maybe something with fire totems).
Enh: some random talent that reduces cost of your shocks after melee crit or something.

Druid:
Bala: upon casting innervate on other target you gain its effect too.
Feral Tank: 2-3% crit immunity somewhere in talents.
Feral DPS: I have no idea.

Priest:
Shadow: Nothing or like 5% dmg buff.

Warlock: Curse of Elements (or Improved Curse of Elements) now also reduces targets nature resistance.

In truth high nature resistance on bosses was main thing that kept ele shamans and boomkins away from raiding (mana problems were possible to overcome with consumables).

DPS druids, paladins, priests and shamans should be brought to the raids for thier utility and never for pure dps.

[Aeula]

Just change the numbers a little.

No need to change abilities or anything.

[dopefishz]

We want vanilla !!! *get's vanilla* BUT WITH CHOCOLATE SAUCE !!

I really love these posts. Y'all wanted vanilla and now that you get it, you demand QOL changes that just weren't a part of vanilla

[Octayvius]

We want vanilla !!! *get's vanilla* BUT WITH CHOCOLATE SAUCE !!

I really love these posts. Y'all wanted vanilla and now that you get it, you demand QOL changes that just weren't a part of vanilla

And not a single argument for or against was made that day.

- - - Updated - - -

Just change the numbers a little.

No need to change abilities or anything.

I suggested the attack speed and mana buffs due to pvp. I thought about if they just tuned the numbers up but people would get really upset of a paladin one shot them with reckoning or seal of command, it's better if we use attack speed to increase the dps so the burst in pvp is unaffected.

[Demsi]

We want vanilla !!! *get's vanilla* BUT WITH CHOCOLATE SAUCE !!

I really love these posts. Y'all wanted vanilla and now that you get it, you demand QOL changes that just weren't a part of vanilla

Not everyone that wanted classic servers wanted it to be 100% classic, some pople like me wanted it to be more polished

[Aeula]

I suggested the attack speed and mana buffs due to pvp. I thought about if they just tuned the numbers up but people would get really upset of a paladin one shot them with reckoning or seal of command, it's better if we use attack speed to increase the dps so the burst in pvp is unaffected.

Aye, stuff like that. Even attack speed is changing a number a little without really killing the core gameplay of the 'spec'.

[Oakshana]

I am not sure what people think buffing Classic Ret Paladins is going to do. They auto-attack and cast judgement and pray for SoComm to proc. To make Ret's viable in raids as a dps class, they'd have to give them TBC abilities, like Crusader Strike.

Now it's not Classic anymore.

(and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Paladins and played one in Vanilla... I am saying you are heading down a slippery slope when you want to start buffing and modifying classes beyond what they were.)

[Lorianus]

I suggested the attack speed and mana buffs due to pvp. I thought about if they just tuned the numbers up but people would get really upset of a paladin one shot them with reckoning or seal of command, it's better if we use attack speed to increase the dps so the burst in pvp is unaffected.

Doesnt matter what you do since the main dps classes, rogue/mage/warrior, can 1-2 shot everything anyway in classic why should only a PoM Pyro / trinket mage be entitled to do 2k-4k crits.

Please dont give me a "because it's vanilla duh" explanation because as soon as this project goes official with a sub fee, blizzard is going to be asked by the playerbase for things like that and held accountable for a lack of better word.

"It's the old why are my 15 euros not as much worth as the 15 euros of a fire mage whos having fun in pvp." as soon as money is involved

[Octayvius]

I am not sure what people think buffing Classic Ret Paladins is going to do. They auto-attack and cast judgement and pray for SoComm to proc. To make Ret's viable in raids as a dps class, they'd have to give them TBC abilities, like Crusader Strike.

Now it's not Classic anymore.

(and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Paladins and played one in Vanilla... I am saying you are heading down a slippery slope when you want to start buffing and modifying classes beyond what they were.)

A heavily geared paladin in ret which was super rare at the time, could compete for the lower half of the dps meters, yeah the rotation is boring and it's about proxa but that's fine, we knew that, the goal Is to make the hybrid classes tolerable to take to raids, ret paladins aren't important dps and protecting pallid are not best for ranking but they should be able to heal even in those specs on the fly, nothing huge or comparable to other classes, but kind of an oh shit moment extra healer, this is what hybrid classes are and that's something that they got really down perfectly for druids. Restore druids can taunt and steal a stack if a tank up and dies it makes them versatile.

[Azerate]

The goal is bring back vanilla, not to change fundamental stuff around. Nothing should be changed. If you want balance, there's plenty in Legion.

[urasim]

And not a single argument for or against was made that day.

It's the most important argument. People want classic to relive the experience. QoL or balance changes goes against those people's wishes. It has to be day one classic experience with the same progression or they can't call it classic.

I don't even want the damn thing and I think people asking for changes are silly at best.

[MMKing]

A heavily geared paladin in ret which was super rare at the time, could compete for the lower half of the dps meters, yeah the rotation is boring and it's about proxa but that's fine, we knew that, the goal Is to make the hybrid classes tolerable to take to raids, ret paladins aren't important dps and protecting pallid are not best for ranking but they should be able to heal even in those specs on the fly, nothing huge or comparable to other classes, but kind of an oh shit moment extra healer, this is what hybrid classes are and that's something that they got really down perfectly for druids. Restore druids can taunt and steal a stack if a tank up and dies it makes them versatile.

Lower half vs undead

Ret paladin vs Patchwerk pre-bc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEs9coe5XRg

11th place

[Talon8669]

It's the most important argument. People want classic to relive the experience. QoL or balance changes goes against those people's wishes. It has to be day one classic experience with the same progression or they can't call it classic.

I don't even want the damn thing and I think people asking for changes are silly at best.

This simply isn't true. Don't make statements and claim that its truth or fact for all people who wanted classic servers. I have wanted classic servers since WoTLK hit, but I also want some of the QoL changes and better gear itemization. So again you're free to have an opinion but don't try to present it as fact.

[Deleted]

Literally just copy-paste nost and don't change anything. If you don't like it don't play it

[urasim]

This simply isn't true. Don't make statements and claim that its truth or fact for all people who wanted classic servers. I have wanted classic servers since WoTLK hit, but I also want some of the QoL changes and better gear itemization. So again you're free to have an opinion but don't try to present it as fact.

It's a fact that there are people that don't want a classic that's been altered by QoL or better itemization.

I don't want to play classic. If I did, I'd want it unaltered. So that right there makes my previous statement a fact.

[Stormspellz]

we want vanilla! wait no we want you to rebalance vanilla, and add in all these things not in vanilla