Vanilla wasn't hard, it was annoying

[RapBreon]

Depends.

For Mythic raiding, yeah, probably ; we didn't went far enough during Vanilla to be actually able to make relevant comparisons (comparing MC to Mythic is pointless, it's Naxx40 and maybe the second part of AQ40 which would be relevant), but I'm ready to accept that mythic raiding is harder than Vanilla raids.

For leveling ? Vanilla is harder by a mile. Not "hard", but "harder". I need to pay attention in Vanilla, I can actually die, and I often have to actually use my skills (both as a player and with my character) to survive some encounters. I don't remember anything like that in current WoW.

For dungeons ? Comparisons are difficult to do, because Legion is more about rushing (timer) while Vanilla is more about simply completing the dungeon. Also, what would be the adequate comparison ? Normal ? Heroic ? Mythic ? Mythic +2 ? Mythic +5 ? Mythic +10 ? Add to that the extreme power difference due to gear (in Vanilla, your power in full T2 compared to your power in full blue is maybe +20 to +30 % ; in Legion, your power in full blues compared to Nighthold is what, +400 to +500 % ? More ?), it makes any comparison even less significant.

PvP, I don't really know and I simply don't care. I hate PvP

It's somewhat true, but I think it misses very important stuff.
Like "the easy stuff" in Legion is EVERYTHING but Heroic/Mythic raiding and high-end Mythic dungeons. That's more like "everything in Vanilla is harder, save for the fringe top 5-10 % of content".
Also, the TYPE of difficulty is different. Legion is all about "do your rotation and move". Vanilla is more about "manage the fight". Legion is very "self-centered" (you're focused on what YOU do and don't really give a shit about what others do, and nearly every change to the game since WotLK has been about removing other's effect on your performance and concentrating everything in each player's hands), while Vanilla is very "group-centered" (you depend on others for a lot more, and managing a big fight involves depending on what others do, like typically threat).

Legion general gameplay is also nearly entirely focused on "output" ("how much healing do you do", "how much damage do you do", "how much damage can you take") while Vanilla is more about situational awareness/skills and, again, "management". There is little gameplay maximizing your damage ("rotations" are very simplistic) but a lot of gameplay to mitigate shit hitting the fan (crowd control, slowing down foes, managing threat and mana, etc.).

Naxx is the only thing I'm not sure of, because by all accounts it was a fucking nightmare difficulty wise. Really wish I had some solid documentation on that, but with the completion rates as they were it would be hard to find something decent.

I 100% agree with you on the leveling. As for dungeons, M+ does make it difficult, I'd say really high keys would be harder than any Vanilla dungeon, but a Vanilla dungeon is probably harder than middling keys. Hard to say M+ is a spanner. If M+ didn't exist I'd agree on dungeons as well.

Yes, Legion requires different skills and the way the type of skills checked are entirely different. The reason I think Legion is harder is because 1. it checks more skills 2. it checks them more intensely with smaller windows of response and with the current tier, bigger than usual punishments for failure. Classic checks long-term skills like planning, organisation, etc. something that typically have (but not always!) have larger windows of response.

I do disagree about awareness in Legion, a high end player needs to be very aware. I don't think there is really a tunneling risk in Classic.

Edit: I am only talking about raiding btw. The top 5-10% as you put it. I'm basically in agreement about the 'easy' stuff being prolific now compared to Vanilla.

[Bodakane]

You mean like the tens to hundred of thousands people who actually PLAY Vanilla and are going to be awakened to... what they are already playing ?
How does that work ?

Yes, that's a lot of people for this game......

[Akka]

There was no way to tell what stat increased what, you kinda had to ask in general chat.

Yeah, reading tooltip that spell out explicitely exactly what each stat does, is hard...

Agi gave some classes attack power, str gave others attack power, but str didn't give shamans attack power, so you saw them running around with str gear all the time, a lot of the shaman stuff has str on it.

Someone seems to not have played Vanilla.

[God Save The King]

And now we learn people are not entirely constrained into boxes ?
I'm pro-Vanilla and very much in the "purist" side for many reasons, I still can accept some of the changes that are suggested by the non-purist. Good thing we aren't just archetypes.

The fact that the reasoning is nonsensical doesn't depend on you being pro- or anti-Vanilla, it's nonsensical on its own merit. It's just that it's a typical (bad) argument made by anti-Vanilla people. They don't have the exclusivity on nonsense.

Well, we've each made our points. Unfortunately I must head to bed. Have a nice night. Thanks for the discussion, at the least I've gained a deeper appreciation for how some vanilla people feel about the difficulty of the game.

[Rupenbritz]

That argument about vanilla being "harder" because you can only pull one mob at a time is missing a major point - this is about gear, and if you go to Argus with a 750 ilvl you're still going to be in for a bad time. Likewise, you could probably faceroll everything if you had high end raid gear in vanilla (I admit that I can't verify that for vanilla, but you certainly could in TBC, I played a warlock had got into sunwell, as affliction you could pull just as much as you can today, although dual spec wasn't a thing and I was usually destruction unless I was doing pvp.

The difference isn't that it's so "easy" now, it's that they make an effort so that anyone can get to 110 and enter current raid content immediately, as opposed to the issue where if you hit 60 in 2006, you were never ever seeing high end content, the catchup just got worse and worse. I missed the raider bus in vanilla, managed to get on it TBC, and as much fun as I had back then, I think it was necessary for the survival of the game to get more players into current raid content.

Yes and no.
The main problem is retail is casual simply because they implement too many QoL and Catchup changes. I was recently offered to come back to a pretty decent guild, and I asked (because I have no idea how it works) that isnt artifact power something that I'll be far behind on etc? And they were like nah we can get you raid ready within a week and catchup on AP in like two.

I mean sure if you just ding 60 and have the right contacts you could get boosted in MC/BWL and get all the items you'd be good to go also.

But lets look into reality for those 2 scenarios.

Retail:
Boss item drop # compared to raid size is high enough that everyone in the guild already has 3 geared alts with max gear.
People only need Warforged (Thunder whatever?) upgrades. Boosting 1 guy isn't the end of the world gearwise, nobody would care.
I could be BiS in <1month of returning to Retail, I wouldn't really need to contribute.

Vanilla:
Raids are 40man, the boss drops less items then in 25man. Gearing 40 people wouldn't even be close to done. And pitching the idea to them that "oh just for this week we are giving most of the gear to this guy" would be practically impossible. Boosting deadweight wasnt as big a problem in 40mans sure, but gearwise? Not a chance.
The only way to catchup was starting with dungeons, getting pre-raid BiS. Joining a MC prog guild and getting DKP and winning items.
I wouldn't be BiS until ~6 months with a good guild in Classic, and I would need to contribute a lot.

I do understand the point your making but you just cant compare the steps neccesary to become BiS in Vanilla compared to Retail.
It's almost by default "harder".

[Lolsteak]

i cant wait for you to realise how "amazing social community " experience it will be to runing all your guildies through attunements for years when most of them will be quiting game couple of years after starting playing

Implying it takes years to do attunements.

Implying one person will run every single other person in a guild through the attunements.

You really don't know much about Vanilla do you? Or even how these things are handled on current PServers.

[Arainie]

Basically like having a second job, a major annoyance needing reagents for EVERYTHING and coordinating every single pull.

Would give my right arm for this alone. So sick of "pull 3 packs and AoE on M+17".

[Akka]

Naxx is the only thing I'm not sure of, because by all accounts it was a fucking nightmare difficulty wise. Really wish I had some solid documentation on that, but with the completion rates as they were it would be hard to find something decent.

I 100% agree with you on the leveling. As for dungeons, M+ does make it difficult, I'd say really high keys would be harder than any Vanilla dungeon, but a Vanilla dungeon is probably harder than middling keys. Hard to say M+ is a spanner. If M+ didn't exist I'd agree on dungeons as well.

We seem to be on the same page here.

Yes, Legion requires different skills and the way the type of skills checked are entirely different. The reason I think Legion is harder is because 1. it checks more skills 2. it checks them more intensely with smaller windows of response and with the current tier, bigger than usual punishments for failure. Classic checks long-term skills like planning, organisation, etc. something that typically have (but not always!) have larger windows of response.

I do disagree about awareness in Legion, a high end player needs to be very aware. I don't think there is really a tunneling risk in Classic.

Yes, current WoW feels more demanding on the "reflexes/quick-thinking under pressure/environment processing" skillset in raiding. To the point that I feel it's very "spammy" (I remember some nights where I was raiding back-to-back Legion and Vanilla, and boy was the contrast harsh) and, despite the much higher complexity of Legion rotation, somewhat more "mindless" (that's spam for you), because it was more acting on muscle memory than on tactical decisions.

Anyway, the gameplay in current WoW is still very self-oriented (it's mostly about your rotation for a DD, and about when you use your own CD for your own results), there is very little to manage outside output and "move out of the fire" (CC is non-existent, threat has been irrelevant for years, healer mana is more like a soft enrage than any kind of management, and it's the only resource left to manage). The raider needs to be aware of the environment (lots more of fire to get out, that's true) but his own performance is barely affecter by others (no buff, no debuffs, no synergy, all this has been systematically removed by Blizzard expansion after expansion).
Basically, rotation is too central to the gameplay of Legion (outside of said rotation, there is practically nothing to use) and output too much of the ultimate benchmark.

- - - Updated - - -

You really don't know much about Vanilla do you? Or even how these things are handled on current PServers.

With the years spent on these forums, I've noticed a number of posters who will say shit in basically EVERYTHING they post. Regardless of the subject, when they say something, there is about 90 % chance of it being wrong or stupid.

Two names especially make the top of the list : kamuimac and Pull My Finger (with tripconn steadily gaining pace).
You've been warned.

[RapBreon]

We seem to be on the same page here.

Yes, current WoW feels more demanding on the "reflexes/quick-thinking under pressure/environment processing" skillset in raiding. To the point that I feel it's very "spammy" (I remember some nights where I was raiding back-to-back Legion and Vanilla, and boy was the contrast harsh) and, despite the much higher complexity of Legion rotation, somewhat more "mindless" (that's spam for you), because it was more acting on muscle memory than on tactical decisions.

Anyway, the gameplay in current WoW is still very self-oriented (it's mostly about your rotation for a DD, and about when you use your own CD for your own results), there is very little to manage outside output and "move out of the fire" (CC is non-existent, threat has been irrelevant for years, healer mana is more like a soft enrage than any kind of management, and it's the only resource left to manage). The raider needs to be aware of the environment (lots more of fire to get out, that's true) but his own performance is barely affecter by others (no buff, no debuffs, no synergy, all this has been systematically removed by Blizzard expansion after expansion).
Basically, rotation is too central to the gameplay of Legion (outside of said rotation, there is practically nothing to use) and output too much of the ultimate benchmark.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't think any rendition of WoW is 'hard' to me (again subjective). Or really most facets of any MMORPG for that matter.

I do agree throughput is the ultimate benchmark now, but that is also just people becoming more mathematically savvy too. I don't think you've really read my other posts (and I don't expect you too), but I made a post that somewhat mirror's your second paragraph about 'player orientated design'. You can find it here.

[Deleted]

"WoW is not hard, you just need to push the right buttons at the right time." But seriously WoW is not a game where you will ever have "daunting mechanics" in themselves—everything breaks down into simple actions. What makes it difficult is reducing the margin of error with tight tuning of the numbers, and all the things you need to do in order to field a capable raid team.

[Heathy]

I think the healing gameplay has only gotten better over time, in classic no other class could compete with priests on output, druids and palas/shamans could heal ofc but they couldn't hold a candle to a priest, a priest in blues could probably out heal a pala in t1. what this means is that the competition that exists today pushing to be the one with the best output, doesn't work for classic wow, theres no competition between healers because priests are just so much better than the rest (entirely different league). The actual demands on your reaction time are a lot less, healing today is quite a button mashing affair, but in classic there weren't even a fraction of the spells in use per fight. today i'm using something like 20 key binds no macros just separate abilities bound to keys with some ctrl/shift/alt modifiers. back in classic i had 4 abilities bound to keys, dispell, wand, renew, flash heal. if anything i'm curious how long that old game play will remain interesting, it was good when it was the only option, i'm not sure i can see the pace of combat and what being a healer entails, retaining an interested party. basically healing today is 1000x objectively more fun to do than it was in classic. theres a higher skill cap today than there was. theres just very little dynamic to it. it doesn't feel like you had any real spell choice, compared to today, like dps mashing frost bolt 1000 times, healing was pretty much pressing flash heal 1000 times. I could probably enjoy that simplicity for a while but i'm tired of the hyperbole of classic wow, that old healing game play isn't going to be as interesting as what you'll find in the retail game.

[Deleted]

You just proved your own point moot


You had to compare a Mythic raid to just playing Vanilla, just wandering the world, killing Zebras.


What does it say about WoW Live, that we need to rush to the hardest of hard content against the largest Demon in the game just to make the case that the game is mechanically interesting? Shouldnt the game always be interesting, maybe from level 1 to 10, it should be simple, for new players to grasp the UI and general flow of the game.


The game wasent annoying, it just demanded that the player paid attention, whether they were level 13, 38, or 60 and raiding. Its not different than having to pay attention playing Super Mario Bros level 1-1. You cant just sleep through it, you still have to nail very easy jumps, and the difficulty ramps up. Its video game design 101.


And that is gone from Live, the game is as easy at level 4, 58, 85 and 110, unless you opt in for the hardest raids. The difficulty is essentially a flat line throughout and spikes at the very end. Bad game design.

[Akka]

If you want my honest opinion, I don't think any rendition of WoW is 'hard' to me (again subjective). Or really most facets of any MMORPG for that matter.

Yes and no.
I can understand the point that when playing, things don't feel that hard. I tend to have the same perception most of the time.
But then, fact is, only a tiny amount of people manage to do the hardest part. If most can't manage something even when they try, then I tend to say it proves this thing is pretty hard.

I do agree throughput is the ultimate benchmark now, but that is also just people becoming more mathematically savvy too. I don't think you've really read my other posts (and I don't expect you too), but I made a post that somewhat mirror's your second paragraph about 'player orientated design'. You can find it here.

I agree with your point, but it's a slightly different one than I was making. I don't think the difference on how player-focused both game were, is that big. I'd say it's more about the skillset and the context : the skillset in Vanilla was more social-oriented (being able to fit in, play with and lead a group were skills just as important for your overall success rate than gameplay) and the gameplay itself was more team-based.
So who you were was just as important, but it was more comprehensive, less demanding in action-based talents but more demanding in management/social ones.
My point was more that Blizzard changes to gameplay isolated each player/character into a bubble of its own where he isn't impacted as much by whatever others do, and the near-entirety of his output is under his control. Less team-based gameplay, more personal one (up to even gear distribution, with the "personal loot"). It's just another striking example of WoW becoming a MSO (Massively Single-player Online) game.

Where I agree with you is that the game today doesn't really care about your character, as you can make it up to task in a tiny fraction of the time and don't have to invest a lot in it.

[vsb]

Vanilla is a classic RPG and it means that it's mostly a numbers/strategic game you have to grind hard and be prepared this is the difficulty of vanilla
Legion on the other hand is an action game where you should train your spinal cord along with 19 other people until everybody reaches near perfect reaction

Well said. And I love former game style while hating latter.

[Deleted]

Would give my right arm for this alone. So sick of "pull 3 packs and AoE on M+17".

Bet you havent done this yet. Pulling 3 packs on highkeys is not just AoE them down. It is coordination of gear, CC and kiting. So it is basically coordinating every single pull, expect it is not "try not to get aggro and CC what kills us" but "CC it and kill it before it can kill us". But yeah, highkeys are a lot of coordination.

[rootbeerboy]

Yes and no.
The main problem is retail is casual simply because they implement too many QoL and Catchup changes. I was recently offered to come back to a pretty decent guild, and I asked (because I have no idea how it works) that isnt artifact power something that I'll be far behind on etc? And they were like nah we can get you raid ready within a week and catchup on AP in like two.

I mean sure if you just ding 60 and have the right contacts you could get boosted in MC/BWL and get all the items you'd be good to go also.

But lets look into reality for those 2 scenarios.

Retail:
Boss item drop # compared to raid size is high enough that everyone in the guild already has 3 geared alts with max gear.
People only need Warforged (Thunder whatever?) upgrades. Boosting 1 guy isn't the end of the world gearwise, nobody would care.
I could be BiS in <1month of returning to Retail, I wouldn't really need to contribute.

Vanilla:
Raids are 40man, the boss drops less items then in 25man. Gearing 40 people wouldn't even be close to done. And pitching the idea to them that "oh just for this week we are giving most of the gear to this guy" would be practically impossible. Boosting deadweight wasnt as big a problem in 40mans sure, but gearwise? Not a chance.
The only way to catchup was starting with dungeons, getting pre-raid BiS. Joining a MC prog guild and getting DKP and winning items.
I wouldn't be BiS until ~6 months with a good guild in Classic, and I would need to contribute a lot.

I do understand the point your making but you just cant compare the steps neccesary to become BiS in Vanilla compared to Retail.
It's almost by default "harder".

Considering to be BIS in retail you need incredible dungeon luck and or mythic plus weekly chest luck and most likely incredible relinquished vendor luck legendary luck.. and t19 luck depending on your class. it's safe to say you may never actually be best in slot in retail. For some people it happens.. speed will vary. But there's a chance you'll never be. Chances of you being bis in a month is slim to none. Even with the crucible you need triple bis relics to be bis. Which may never happen. Please stop talking out of your ass.

Maybe in a week or two you can be a warm body in a mythic raid.. but that's about it.

Notice you say you got offered to come back to the game.. meaning you don't actually even play retail to begin with.. further proof of you talking out of your ass.

[RapBreon]

Yes and no.
I can understand the point that when playing, things don't feel that hard. I tend to have the same perception most of the time.
But then, fact is, only a tiny amount of people manage to do the hardest part. If most can't manage something even when they try, then I tend to say it proves this thing is pretty hard.

That's why I said 'to me'. Some people find Arena easy, I for struggle with it more than any other PvP (including big name games like Overwatch and LoL) for some reason.

I agree with your point, but it's a slightly different one than I was making. I don't think the difference on how player-focused both game were, is that big. I'd say it's more about the skillset and the context : the skillset in Vanilla was more social-oriented (being able to fit in, play with and lead a group were skills just as important for your overall success rate than gameplay) and the gameplay itself was more team-based.

These are all skills that Vanilla checks harder than current WoW, I agree. Checked primarily by having a reputation due to server community.

[Maudib]

"Vanilla wasn't hard, it was annoying"

You spelled amazing wrong.

[Rupenbritz]

Considering to be BIS in retail you need incredible dungeon luck and or mythic plus weekly chest luck and most likely incredible relinquished vendor luck legendary luck.. and t19 luck depending on your class. it's safe to say you may never actually be best in slot in retail. For some people it happens.. speed will vary. But there's a chance you'll never be. Chances of you being bis in a month is slim to none. Even with the crucible you need triple bis relics to be bis. Which may never happen. Please stop talking out of your ass.

Maybe in a week or two you can be a warm body in a mythic raid.. but that's about it.

Notice you say you got offered to come back to the game.. meaning you don't actually even play retail to begin with.. further proof of you talking out of your ass.

I cleared
BWL/AQ40/Naxx in Vanilla
BT/SW in TBC
ICC 25 HC in Wrath
FL 25 HC / DS 10 HC in Catac
SoO 25 HC in MoP
Highmaul Mythic in WoD before quitting.
A lot of them are realm first progressions, not late patch clearing.

I was almost full BiS WF after 5 clears of SoO, lucky that I was only rogue and no feral indeed. I have raided more then you ever will. But please tell me more about how I am talking through my ass.

[Vladar]

Free epics, trivial LFD and LFR instances and the removal of any need to join a guild or make friends to make efficient groups is what is annoying to me. They made changes to completely destroy the community and thats why they have much fewer subs.