Rethinking body positivity.

[Spectral]

No. It's not. It's not remotely like that. I get what you're trying to say, in that "The gun didn't kill them, the bullet did", but, just, no.

There are no cases of people smoking being good for them. Smoking is an unhealthy habit no matter how you swing it.

Obesity, on the otherhand, has a number of factors. First off, it isn't just 'lol they ate too much' or 'lol they need to walk around more'. It isn't just something you 'took' or 'did' and it happens. Secondly, there ARE perfectly healthy people who are in the obese range (Which is virtually everyone these days, based off certain metrics, which further conflates the problem).

So, no. Obesity, or 'being overweight' is not the same as smoking. It can complicate things, but it won't necessarily do so.

The people in question aren't just "overweight", they're class 3 obese (defined as BMI >40). One way of thinking about the risk level of being that obese is explained here:

Thus, while an 18-year-old white male who is of normal weight and does not smoke can expect to live to 81, the life expectancy of an 18-year-old white male who smokes and is Class 3 obese is only 60 years—a decrease in life expectancy of 21 years, approximately 10 years of which can be attributed to obesity.

Put another way, being that fat is about as damaging to your life expectancy as smoking.

The "number of factors" reasoning is mostly a red herring. For almost everyone in these categories, the problem really is just a massive caloric surplus. Sure, there are different ways to wind up with a massive surplus and different mental reasons why someone might do that, but it all comes back to the same core input/output situation.

[chazus]

The people in question aren't just "overweight", they're class 3 obese (defined as BMI >40). One way of thinking about the risk level of being that obese is explained here:

I wasn't regarding the people in question really, just in general. But the first issue is that you're using a system that is largely considered outdated and borderline factually incorrect.

Put another way, being that fat is about as damaging to your life expectancy as smoking.

While it's difficult to debate with that, because in part it's true. There are two problems. 1) "Being Fat" is incredibly vague. Like, to the point of non-discussion. 2) Smoking is very much a voluntary choice. You cannot have genetics that make you smoke. You cannot have a social/economical situation that make you smoke. Your parents can't not have enough money in your childhood to make you smoke. Hence the 'bad analogy'. Smoking is effectively 100% Voluntary. 'Being fat' is not necessarily so.

The "number of factors" reasoning is mostly a red herring. For almost everyone in these categories, the problem really is just a massive caloric surplus. Sure, there are different ways to wind up with a massive surplus and different mental reasons why someone might do that, but it all comes back to the same core input/output situation.

Millions of people who suffer from weight problems who eat well, and exercise to fight their bodies, would like to have more than a few words with you. Science also does, too.

[Spectral]

I wasn't regarding the people in question really, just in general. But the first issue is that you're using a system that is largely considered outdated and borderline factually incorrect.

BMI has issues at the margins for individuals - it's perfectly fine for population level data and epidemiology, especially in extreme cases such as BMIs over 40. Nearly no one in that category isn't substantially overfat.

While it's difficult to debate with that, because in part it's true. There are two problems. 1) "Being Fat" is incredibly vague. Like, to the point of non-discussion. 2) Smoking is very much a voluntary choice. You cannot have genetics that make you smoke. You cannot have a social/economical situation that make you smoke. Your parents can't not have enough money in your childhood to make you smoke. Hence the 'bad analogy'. Smoking is effectively 100% Voluntary. 'Being fat' is not necessarily so.

Being fat is a voluntary choice to at least the same extent as smoking. People have addictions and other psychological problems that call into question how "voluntary" their choices really are, but overconsuming food is certainly a choice to the same extent that smoking is. Empathizing with people that are already obese or addicted is certainly worthwhile - once you're in that spot, it's demonstrably extremely hard to stop being that way.

The notion of a "social/economical situation" that would make someone obese remains utterly ridiculous - there's no such thing as having so little money that you can't eat less.

Millions of people who suffer from weight problems who eat well, and exercise to fight their bodies, would like to have more than a few words with you. Science also does, too.

This is just blustery, but kinda content free that doesn't contain anything to actually address. There's no science of people that eat the recommended number of calories, exercise regularly, and stay morbidly obese without some very rare conditions.

Ultimately, these quibbles are off of the central point, which was from this:

That's the problem about obesity. It's not that people die of 'being fat', but there are a hundred other normal complications that are either harder to diagnose, or simply made worse because of it. Being obese doesn't 'cause' those things.

This is basically just wrong - while one can't pinpoint obesity as the direct cause of a given ailment, it's a huge risk factor for a number of health problems. Take, for example, the Framingham Heart Study I linked earlier from the CDC. For someone at age 35, the chances of having cardiac failure while not obese is minuscule, nearly zero, to the point where it's entirely reasonable to say that if a person with a BMI of 50 dies of cardiac failure at age 35, it's as a result of their obesity. Claiming otherwise is based entirely on sleight of hand and obfuscation.

[The One Percent]

It's science not fucking magic, gaining weight and becoming obese doesn't happen over night, and losing weight doesn't either.

No shit? Thanks for making me aware of that. Who would have thought that a constant string of bad decisions and lifestyle choices lead to bad effects and good ones lead to good effects? Nobel prize laureate material right here.

Fact remains if you eat more calories than you burn, you store the energy as fat. I'm not fucking jacked because of genetics, I'm jacked because I get up every morning before the sun comes up and hit the gym and I eat rice and chicken for 95% of my meals. There is no magic to it, just hard work and dedication. However, if you just want to not be obese, you don't even have to put nearly as much work as people like me put into it. But hey, don't let me break your delusions, it's all about genetics even though our ancestors didn't become obese like us because they didn't have the luxury to.

I don't care if you're fat. Eat as much as you like. Sit on your ass vegetating in front of the TV or computer. Just don't expect me to foot your medical bills through taxation. Your failures are your own. The only problem I have with obesity is the burden it puts on the health care system because they simply cannot control themselves.

[Katie N]

While it's difficult to debate with that, because in part it's true. There are two problems. 1) "Being Fat" is incredibly vague. Like, to the point of non-discussion. 2) Smoking is very much a voluntary choice. You cannot have genetics that make you smoke. You cannot have a social/economical situation that make you smoke. Your parents can't not have enough money in your childhood to make you smoke. Hence the 'bad analogy'. Smoking is effectively 100% Voluntary. 'Being fat' is not necessarily so.

There is nothing that makes you fat except eating too much for your activity level outside of medical conditions.

Millions of people who suffer from weight problems who eat well, and exercise to fight their bodies, would like to have more than a few words with you. Science also does, too.

You can't be overweight if you eat according to your activity level. xD

[Rooflesstoofless]

This is complete and utter nonsense and leads to a culture of assholes who really don't know what the fuck they are talking about giving us a cruelty epidemic because of people too stupid to accept that obesity is a complicated issue.

For about 99% of the cases out there it's as simple as calories in versus calories out.

The One Percent is on the money.

[primalmatter]

Eat a salad and go for a run.

Another problem solved by the primalmatter next week world hunger.

[breadisfunny]

When you look at the motivators behind these so-called "truth-tellers", none of them have anything to do with "altruism", or wanting to help people. So, yeah, that's exactly what it is. And, unsurprisingly, and ironically, that's one of the biggest reasons holding any kind of actual positive outcomes when it comes to helping overweight people to lose weight.

The answer isn't always the worst possible thing you can imagine, but it is exactly what it is, and not something else.

Perhaps you need to try harder.

you heard it here folks. don't tell someone who overweight they're fat if they ask you if they have a weight problem. it might hurt their feelings. part of being adult is learning to handle negative situations. it is not our job to baby people because they are unable to face the truth.

[Deleted]

https://www.ravishly.com/2017/04/03/...ody-positivity

Not a thread I thought I'd make.

This weekend I had a rude wakeup call when I found out that a classmate from high school had died in her sleep. I graduated in 2004 and this is the fifth death from my graduating class. One suicide, one car accident, one to brain cancer and two due to complications from obesity. The two obesity-related deaths were in the last year. One died from sleep apnea. The friend and classmate that died this weekend died from a heart attack. Her mother posted on Facebook that it had gotten so painful for her to move that she no longer could walk upstairs. Both classmates were well into the morbidly obese range.

I've always been a firm believer in loving oneself no matter your weight, but recent events are giving me pause. I certainly don't think we need to shame people for being overweight, and while I don't think that weight is a perfect predictor of health (there are plenty of thin people with terrible eating and exercise habits, for example), it is shocking to hear about classmates who are dying in their early 30s due to wholly preventable causes.

Just feeling a bit shocked right now. The obesity epidemic is hitting home.

there was a line between what's body positive and what's just enabling an unhealthy addiction.

[breadisfunny]

There is body positivity and there is plain stupidity...
You should be positive about your body, where you cannot change anything about, like a small penis or breasts, deranged body parts, ugly face etc.

NOBODY is obese from birth and cannot change anything about it. It actually takes great commitment to become obese, since you have to take a huge amount of calories every single day just do maintain that mass.

Obese people that are in denial about their unhealthy lifestyle are a massive problem and everyone who tells someone like that, to accept their body as it is, indirectly contributes to that person's death.

PLEASE don't encourage destructive behavior... You are just as helpful as the idiots who constantly mock fat people...

there are a few medical disorders that actually do cause the body to be obese right at or shortly after birth. so nope your wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Being alive is killing everyone. Why are you telling someone they are going to die from whatever? What is your reason for telling them?

wtf are you going on about?

- - - Updated - - -

Support for stupid people is hard on me, after middle school. Having support for fatties is wrong.

the irony in this statement is so overwhelming it hurts. you make one of the most ignorant statements in this thread and then go and say everyone else is fat and stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at this "body positivity" promotional image.



10 bodies and not a single one of them is healthy.

idk they all look mighty underage to me....hmm very suspicious. well except for maybe 1 and the chubby middle one.

[Steelcryo]

While I'm not going to deny there are genetics and illnesses that can cause obesity (or at the very least make losing weight much harder because they can't exercise or w/e) the majority of obese people do not have these illnesses or genetics. Many just enjoy food and don't enjoy exercise. The fact is shaming people doesn't work, the only people who can make the choice to lose weight are themselves but that doesn't change the fact that being obese is extremely bad for your health. Whether it's caused by a medical condition or laziness, there's no such things as healthy obesity. Anyone who is obese who claims to be healthy is wrong.

And I say all that as a smoker who knows how hard it is to make a change. I'm currently in the process of cutting down with the aim to quit and it's extremely difficult because (and I'll happily admit this) I have very little willpower when it comes to nicotine. The same can be said for food, whilst it isn't as physically addicting as nicotine, the mental addiction and comfort it can bring is immense. The biggest issue with most people is habit.

Everyone says "just quit" or "just eat less and exercise more" but it's not that simple. It requires commitment and dedication to break habits that you have formed and had for such a long time. That being said, I don't think (unless you have a legitimate medical condition) there is any reason why anyone can't lose weight or quit smoking. It just takes willpower and determination. Having support from those around you is one of the biggest benefits you can have to help you but unfortunately many people don't have that and have to do it alone which makes it a lot harder.

Edit: Just clarifying that I did not say fat during this as I do not mean someone "overweight". I am talking about severe obesity. Being a few pounds over what is classed as a healthy weight is much different from being 1-200 pounds overweight.

[breadisfunny]

So far there aren't any campaigns encouraging people to love being obese, that is just misapplied bullshit by you and "False equivalency"

Again there are many reasons people are obese most of it is genetic and has to do with a range of factors you and most people overly positive or negative are typically not qualified to determine for the average asshole.

So if it comes down to one or the other let people live their lives they way they like and be happy, because we both know Spectral you and the people harping on this shit don't give two fucks about the actual lives you are yapping about. And yes spare me you fathers, cousins, pediatricians is obese bullshit. Lots of epidemics and choices people make kills people.

I say stupidity is right at the top because stupidity rarely just affects the person that makes that choice. However I do think the uptenth faux thread about outrage of people's personal size or eating habits as to what the fuck is wrong with them is more than a little obnoxious.

You don't know how to fix it, there is no magic formula you thought of that nobody else has the stones to do or is too PC or whatever the fuck else.

yes let's let them continue to be a strain on the country's healthcare system by continuing to be overweight and have to seek constant healthcare and or die early deaths when they could try and eat healthier or go on diets that would allow for a healthier lifestyle.

[Revi]

Feeling good about yourself is great, as long as it doesn't blind you to improvements you need to make in your life. Need some body-realism too.

It's hard phrasing this without sounding like an asshole, but you shouldn't feel good about being obese. You can be super confident about your personality and your looks, but the fact that you have so much body fat that it's very detrimental to your health and quality of life should bother you. Feeling good about it seems to me like a diabetic saying "I love the way I look on my high-sugar diet, so my blood sugar levels don't matter" It's not about your looks or confidence at all, it's about your health and quality of life.

[breadisfunny]

No shaming uneducated isn't a thing because you are still here spouting this nonsense, about a campaign you don't understand, against those you seem to target for a hate.

Seriously if you don't like how other people live, don't fucking have anything to do with them, you said it yourself you don't give a shit if they die, I on the other hand care that the cruelty and hatred of these people makes their lives a living hell needlessly by uninformed idiots, pretending to do it for moral or noble reasons.

You can accept people being fat, without accepting that there isn't anything that can be done to help, but being an asshole and reminding people they have a problem and your own unsolicited and uneducated opinion isn't helpful.

and here we have it. your basically calling everyone in this thread who is against being okay with being overweight or fat 'stupid'. keep up the personal attacks mall security your really convincing people of your cause and do not at all come off as someone who has severe anger issues.

- - - Updated - - -

But still her being 300lbs while large isn't extremely huge, maybe she had some other issues?

saying 300lbs isn't large is like saying the atlantic ocean is just a really big pond.

[Kithelle]

I don't think I know anyone who was so fat that they died after hitting 30. And I know some pretty fat people.

edit: Not saying that it's not possible. I just am trying to imagine what you'd have to do to be so fat that you die that early.

I'm not the healthiest of people but I'm over 30! But then again I don't hurt and get winded from going up a flight of stairs

But I know I need to get in better shape, but having a low income it's hard to eat healthy...unhealthy is so cheap and easy

[Theodarzna]

I think it should be noted that most body positivity people are often flaming hypocrites.

[Celista]

Sorry to hear about your loss, most of the people that have died that I knew from High School etc have been from Opioids. As for the weight issue, I imagine most people who are overweight/fat/obese etc know it, I myself could stand to lose a few pounds and know it, but I think when you get to a certain point there's other issues at play whether it's mental or what not. But still her being 300lbs while large isn't extremely huge, maybe she had some other issues?

A couple of people have asked this in the thread...all I know is what the moms of both individuals said to me personally and on Facebook, that one death was sleep apnea and the other was heart failure. If they were being dishonest, I do not know. I doubt it.

We had a long, ongoing conversation on Facebook on the subject, if either of them used opioids or any other illegal recreational substance no one from our high school class knew about it.

[Iamanerd]

and here we have it. your basically calling everyone in this thread who is against being okay with being overweight or fat 'stupid'. keep up the personal attacks mall security your really convincing people of your cause and do not at all come off as someone who has severe anger issues.

- - - Updated - - -


saying 300lbs isn't large is like saying the atlantic ocean is just a really big pond.

You missed the point, I corrected it before and that isn't what I said.

[Shadowferal]

A person can be as positive as s/he wants to be about his/her body. As long as that person doesn't expect others hold the same outlook. Or for that matter, to find him/her attractive if s/he's too skinny or overweight.

[Raeph]

I think the body positive movement got one key thing right and one key thing wrong.

Right: There is no generic body type that is more "beautiful" than another and to suggest that there is demeans the bulk of the population that doesn't fit that generic "beautiful" body type.

Wrong: There are unhealthy body types that cross into the range of medically too thin and medically too heavy and encouraging people to ignore the adverse health consequences of either end of the scale is irresponsible.