I hate how this game depends on healers to be played

[Rorke]

Pruning the defensive cds and sustainability of dps classes killed this game for me. Hybrid dps like Balance/Ele/Spriest can't off heal like they used to and feel like you're playing a Warrior. By pruning or nerfing dps survivability has made the healing role way more powerful and dps are now designed to be dependent on healers for the game to function.

Duels and random bg pvp is horrendous as a result of this. Every dps spec just feels exactly the same. Most specs only have one shield wall or a block or something stupid like Karma but that's about it. There's no more days where a good Mage can get a good Evocation off and heal to full or a Ret that can keep his Warrior partner alive with off healing support in 2's. 2's is actually a good example on how bad this problem is because 90% of specs have to play with a healer or else its auto lose. And the other 10% have to work 100 times harder to win over a dps/healer team that just has to pve their way to victory.

Game is just dominated by the healing role and the ability level of the healer. This game revolves around an unpopular role that only a handful of people enjoy. It's no wonder arena participation is so low. There's no games because there's a shortage of healers because most people don't want to heal.

The solution should be to make dps more self sufficient which puts less responsibility on the shoulders of the healer. I'd also like to see healers more dps/cc oriented rather than just passive pillars of immortality.

[Saberstrike]

Healers are a major pain, but they're one of three problems.

1) Time to kill is all over the place. 9/10 cases you get gibbed in a stun by things like ret / fury, and the other 1/10 is a warlock, a healer or a tank that simply never dies. This leads to time-to-heal also being really small, as healers are designed in a way to counter insane dps some classes can do. ...Designed badly, as it's just frustrating to fight them most of the time.

2) Related to the first two -- HP isn't as worthwhile a resource as it should be, because there is very little in ways of middle ground between it being gone in 3 seconds, and it being back to 100 because you're in a line of sight of a healer.

3) Gear power creep. Even with templates, the numbers are largely adjusted for PvE damage / healing, in a way that allows a healer to heal a tank that in turn is designed to withstand attacks of a 25 man mythic raid boss, and the DPS are designed to take that boss down faster than the boss can take down them; To simplify -- DPS is too high, because high-end PvE boss hp & damage is too high, leading to tank HP being too high, leading to healing being too high to keep up with those things. <= All that, for PvP, because of how PvE works in WoW.

So, realistically, healers are OP in PvP because they have to deal with PvE damage. The TRUE way to fix WoW PvP is to design PvE with less rampant power creep on high-end bosses, that in turn requires player power creep to go up as well. Templates can only do so much because they also go up in 'base' stats as patches come out, effectively nullifying the part where they should, in theory, deal with said power creep. Players are more equal than in previous expansions but they are still too powerful in relation to where they should be.

It's also why hybrid healing is low. It's not that hybrid healing has been directly nerfed; it's more that it simply can't keep up with burst damage, healer healing or hilariously bloated hp bars.

...And the less I say about world PvP -- the better.

[Thelxi]

Healing has never been weaker than it has been in Legion. The next step is deleting healers in PvP. If you seriously think healing is still too strong, you either haven't played previous expansions or you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

For some advice, roll a afflock or a spriest or a warrior or a DH or a MM hunter if you want to kill healers in casual PvP. It has never been easier.

[Rorke]

Healing has never been weaker than it has been in Legion. The next step is deleting healers in PvP. If you seriously think healing is still too strong, you either haven't played previous expansions or you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

For some advice, roll a afflock or a spriest or a warrior or a DH or a MM hunter if you want to kill healers in casual PvP. It has never been easier.

You obviously didn't read my OP.

Healers are overpowered because dps are less self sufficient. This forces the game to be far more dependent on healers to be played at a reasonable level.

If healers were able to be solo'd by a lone dps, then 2's wouldn't have to start into heavy dampening and every game would just be dps tunneling healers all game which isn't always the case. The dampening mechanic exists because healers and defensive playstyles are extremely powerful.

The template system has forced every single dps spec into a box where if you play a Mage your class feels worthless without a Rogue babysitting you because the Mage template is balanced around the RMP comp. There's specs like Enhance that are complete garbage outside of arena because again their template is balanced around the idea that they're always playing with a Warrior.

Every dps spec feels stripped down defensively where if you don't have a healer babysitting you, you can't recover or turn the tide on your own or with another dps supporting you. You solely depend on the super healer to bail you out of a bad situation which is lame because it gives more power to the healer in determining the outcome. This makes random fights like in bgs feel entirely scripted where no matter how good you are as a dps, you can't win if the other team has a better healer than your healer.

They've lowered the skill cap of dps where every dps spec only has one role and that is just damage and some cc. It's depressing when I play my Mage and I can't heal at all because "class fantasy" and just have to auto lose against a Resto Shaman that can hit me for 400k lava bursts. They've really hit pure dps the hardest, even hunters just flop over without any healer supporting them.

It's just not fun anymore. The template system and the pruning of defensive play from DPS has ruined this game for me.

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Healers are a major pain, but they're one of three problems.

1) Time to kill is all over the place. 9/10 cases you get gibbed in a stun by things like ret / fury, and the other 1/10 is a warlock, a healer or a tank that simply never dies. This leads to time-to-heal also being really small, as healers are designed in a way to counter insane dps some classes can do. ...Designed badly, as it's just frustrating to fight them most of the time.

2) Related to the first two -- HP isn't as worthwhile a resource as it should be, because there is very little in ways of middle ground between it being gone in 3 seconds, and it being back to 100 because you're in a line of sight of a healer.

3) Gear power creep. Even with templates, the numbers are largely adjusted for PvE damage / healing, in a way that allows a healer to heal a tank that in turn is designed to withstand attacks of a 25 man mythic raid boss, and the DPS are designed to take that boss down faster than the boss can take down them; To simplify -- DPS is too high, because high-end PvE boss hp & damage is too high, leading to tank HP being too high, leading to healing being too high to keep up with those things. <= All that, for PvP, because of how PvE works in WoW.

So, realistically, healers are OP in PvP because they have to deal with PvE damage. The TRUE way to fix WoW PvP is to design PvE with less rampant power creep on high-end bosses, that in turn requires player power creep to go up as well. Templates can only do so much because they also go up in 'base' stats as patches come out, effectively nullifying the part where they should, in theory, deal with said power creep. Players are more equal than in previous expansions but they are still too powerful in relation to where they should be.

PvE has no impact on pvp. Healers are immortal in PvP because the template system statwise has them at that level.

The template system is entirely designed around the idea that everyone is playing 3v3 arena which only a small % of players are doing.

[Teri]

Stun stun stun stun, being 1 healer in a 10 v 10 will get you swarmed if they are any decent.

Now obviously I talk about Random battleground.

If the other team has no healers, they fall over, or if they ignore the healer (usually me), it's dramaticly easier.

[Deleted]

Healing has never been weaker than it has been in Legion. The next step is deleting healers in PvP. If you seriously think healing is still too strong, you either haven't played previous expansions or you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

For some advice, roll a afflock or a spriest or a warrior or a DH or a MM hunter if you want to kill healers in casual PvP. It has never been easier.

Takes 3 warriors to take down my disc priest of mw monk, so you're probably playing against bots.

[Saberstrike]

Stun stun stun stun, being 1 healer in a 10 v 10 will get you swarmed if they are any decent.

idk man. I capped a priest alt like 2 days ago, carried -so- many BGs as holy it's unreal. Literal easy mode after switching from DK. Yes, I freaking said it; When your class is easier to play in a gamewinning, impactful way than a 3-button frost dk (that is also objectively overpowered right now) you know there's a problem.

[Thelxi]

You obviously didn't read my OP.

Healers are overpowered because dps are less self sufficient. This forces the game to be far more dependent on healers to be played at a reasonable level.

If healers were able to be solo'd by a lone dps, then 2's wouldn't have to start into heavy dampening and every game would just be dps tunneling healers all game which isn't always the case. The dampening mechanic exists because healers and defensive playstyles are extremely powerful.

The template system has forced every single dps spec into a box where if you play a Mage your class feels worthless without a Rogue babysitting you because the Mage template is balanced around the RMP comp. There's specs like Enhance that are complete garbage outside of arena because again their template is balanced around the idea that they're always playing with a Warrior.

Every dps spec feels stripped down defensively where if you don't have a healer babysitting you, you can't recover or turn the tide on your own or with another dps supporting you. You solely depend on the super healer to bail you out of a bad situation which is lame because it gives more power to the healer in determining the outcome. This makes random fights like in bgs feel entirely scripted where no matter how good you are as a dps, you can't win if the other team has a better healer than your healer.

They've lowered the skill cap of dps where every dps spec only has one role and that is just damage and some cc. It's depressing when I play my Mage and I can't heal at all because "class fantasy" and just have to auto lose against a Resto Shaman that can hit me for 400k lava bursts. They've really hit pure dps the hardest, even hunters just flop over without any healer supporting them.

It's just not fun anymore. The template system and the pruning of defensive play from DPS has ruined this game for me.

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PvE has no impact on pvp. Healers are immortal in PvP because the template system statwise has them at that level.

The template system is entirely designed around the idea that everyone is playing 3v3 arena which only a small % of players are doing.

First of all I did read your post. Saying dps are less self-sufficient is wrong because dps can self-heal more than any previous expansion, especially taking into consideration the low healing coming out of actual healers. Maybe you mean to say something else, but "less self-sufficient" is little more than a whiny fart in the wind.

Second, healers are possible to solo in Legion. Assuming equal skill you can absolutely exhaust a healer's cooldowns and eventually kill him. That is the whole point. 2 dps can very easily overwhelm a single healer assuming equal (reasonably high) skill. Again, that is the whole point.

Let me really emphasize the truth here and repeat that you are very wrong in thinking that anyone needs a pocket healer to function these days. Get skada or details and actually look at the HPS of healers; you will see that 1 healer does about the same healing as 1 dps does damage, something that was absolutely never the case in any previous expansion where healers always did more/far more healing than a dps did damage.

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And saying that hunters flop over without a pocket healer.. dude. I don't want to tell you to get better but it might have to come to that.

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Takes 3 warriors to take down my disc priest of mw monk, so you're probably playing against bots.

No you are definitely playing against bots (more likely noobs as botting is not as much of an issue anymore). I play both healers (far less in legion) and dps btw.

[Hunterwep]

Yeah or Tanks, it's stupid that we can't raid without Tanks.
/Roll Eyes

[Deleted]

First of all I did read your post. Saying dps are less self-sufficient is wrong because dps can self-heal more than any previous expansion, especially taking into consideration the low healing coming out of actual healers. Maybe you mean to say something else, but "less self-sufficient" is little more than a whiny fart in the wind.

Second, healers are possible to solo in Legion. Assuming equal skill you can absolutely exhaust a healer's cooldowns and eventually kill him. That is the whole point. 2 dps can very easily overwhelm a single healer assuming equal (reasonably high) skill. Again, that is the whole point.

Let me really emphasize the truth here and repeat that you are very wrong in thinking that anyone needs a pocket healer to function these days. Get skada or details and actually look at the HPS of healers; you will see that 1 healer does about the same healing as 1 dps does damage, something that was absolutely never the case in any previous expansion where healers always did more/far more healing than a dps did damage.

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And saying that hunters flop over without a pocket healer.. dude. I don't want to tell you to get better but it might have to come to that.

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No you are definitely playing against bots (more likely noobs as botting is not as much of an issue anymore). I play both healers (far less in legion) and dps btw.

Yeah sure. 2k+ rated in rbgs were bots. I have no issues staying alive, not even against multi glad warriors, then again disc priest and mw monk are kings of survivability/hps (without really popping cds) and no other healer can compare to them in that regard. Sure a resto shaman/druid and holy priest/paladin are easy to kill, but the other two when they are skilled, can easily outplay any dps on them.

Also I play pretty much every class in PvP.

[Schattenlied]

They've lowered the skill cap of dps where every dps spec only has one role and that is just damage and some cc. It's depressing when I play my Mage and I can't heal at all because "class fantasy" and just have to auto lose against a Resto Shaman that can hit me for 400k lava bursts. They've really hit pure dps the hardest, even hunters just flop over without any healer supporting them.

TBH this happens even as the classes that can heal themselves, but rely on a resource to do it, like mana.

A Ret Paladin also never kill a MWmonk or Rdruid/sham alone simply because we can never catch them, ever... The MW monk will never kill us because they do 0 damage, but the RSham and RDruid can.

No hybrid will really ever kill a Disc Priest alone because they have 2 healing schools, interrupt one and they just start using the other, and they widdle you down with the occasional penance/smite faster than Ret/Enh/Ele/Feral/Balance mana regens to heal through it for any period of time longer than 20 seconds, after that you're fighting a losing battle... Elemental COULD kill the priest alone IF they have flame shock up on like 4 people and are just spamming instant Lava Bursts nonstop, but then what are those other 3 people doing letting the Ele shaman just murder the priest?

I don't believe dps should auto win against a healer in a 1v1, that would be stupid... But if it's impossible for a DPS to solo a healer, it should be just as impossible for a healer to solo a DPS, like it was in most past expansions.

My 2c.

[Annedrooo]

It would be hard to give locks more sustain. Aff is practically does all its own healing between drain soul, healthstones and demon skin. Demo and destro both have plenty of sustain albeit less ridiculous.

[Tommi]

I believe the phase in this situation is GIT GUD?

At least, that's what I get told.

[Socialhealer]

Takes 3 warriors to take down my disc priest of mw monk, so you're probably playing against bots.

same for resto druid.

as an ele shaman i find i'm waiting for a cast to windshear and these classes are either immune to interrupt or simply don't cast a fucking thing.

so stuns need to be very common or healers are immortal, sadly this means dps with low survival Cd's just die like a fucking fly without a healer.

[Thelxi]

Yeah sure. 2k+ rated in rbgs were bots. I have no issues staying alive, not even against multi glad warriors, then again disc priest and mw monk are kings of survivability/hps (without really popping cds) and no other healer can compare to them in that regard. Sure a resto shaman/druid and holy priest/paladin are easy to kill, but the other two when they are skilled, can easily outplay any dps on them.

Also I play pretty much every class in PvP.

You picked the wrong person to lie to. Anyone with an ounce of realism and game knowledge knows that it is utterly impossible for a disc priest to survive even just 2 warriors, who apparently are 2k+, for more than a few seconds. Please do us all a favor and describe in detail the scenario in which you a disc priest survive at least two (2k+) warriors tunneling you. Don't stop there either, make a video of it and share it with the world. Let us know exactly how you sustain almost half a million HPS on yourself while getting stunlocked and interrupted by people that clearly know what they are doing.

MW on the other hand does stand a chance at surviving by CCing, running away and taking himself out of the fight in the process of course. Personally MW is the healer I can stomach best in BGs this expansion because even though healing and tankiness is in the gutter, the very nerfed but still decent mobility ameliorates the situation somewhat.

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same for resto druid.

Please join the other guy in describing your survival scenario. It takes 3 warriors to kill your resto druid? (ha!) Please, share exactly how you survive say a DH and afflock training you. The lock has a few unstable afflictions on you, is draining you and the DH is in meta. You are taking ~600k dps.

[Socialhealer]

You picked the wrong person to lie to. Anyone with an ounce of realism and game knowledge knows that it is utterly impossible for a disc priest to survive even just 2 warriors, who apparently are 2k+, for more than a few seconds. Please do us all a favor and describe in detail the scenario in which you a disc priest survive at least two (2k+) warriors tunneling you. Don't stop there either, make a video of it and share it with the world. Let us know exactly how you sustain almost half a million HPS on yourself while getting stunlocked and interrupted by people that clearly know what they are doing.

MW on the other hand does stand a chance at surviving by CCing, running away and taking himself out of the fight in the process of course. Personally MW is the healer I can stomach best in BGs this expansion because even though healing and tankiness is in the gutter, the very nerfed but still decent mobility ameliorates the situation somewhat.

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Please join the other guy in describing your survival scenario. It takes 3 warriors to kill your resto druid? (ha!) Please, share exactly how you survive say a DH and afflock training you. The lock has a few unstable afflictions on you, is draining you and the DH is in meta. You are taking ~600k dps.

lol i survive a affli lock 1v1 as ele by letting him cast 2 UA then interrupt the 3rd and run away, no drain soul = shitty damage, god if only resto druid had more mobility than an affliction lock, but i guess you're solo on the resto druid and the DH has full CD's what exactly are you fighting for here? a tiny violin?

[Stormspellz]

You obviously didn't read my OP.

Healers are overpowered because dps are less self sufficient. This forces the game to be far more dependent on healers to be played at a reasonable level.

If healers were able to be solo'd by a lone dps, then 2's wouldn't have to start into heavy dampening and every game would just be dps tunneling healers all game which isn't always the case. The dampening mechanic exists because healers and defensive playstyles are extremely powerful.

The template system has forced every single dps spec into a box where if you play a Mage your class feels worthless without a Rogue babysitting you because the Mage template is balanced around the RMP comp. There's specs like Enhance that are complete garbage outside of arena because again their template is balanced around the idea that they're always playing with a Warrior.

Every dps spec feels stripped down defensively where if you don't have a healer babysitting you, you can't recover or turn the tide on your own or with another dps supporting you. You solely depend on the super healer to bail you out of a bad situation which is lame because it gives more power to the healer in determining the outcome. This makes random fights like in bgs feel entirely scripted where no matter how good you are as a dps, you can't win if the other team has a better healer than your healer.

They've lowered the skill cap of dps where every dps spec only has one role and that is just damage and some cc. It's depressing when I play my Mage and I can't heal at all because "class fantasy" and just have to auto lose against a Resto Shaman that can hit me for 400k lava bursts. They've really hit pure dps the hardest, even hunters just flop over without any healer supporting them.

It's just not fun anymore. The template system and the pruning of defensive play from DPS has ruined this game for me.

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PvE has no impact on pvp. Healers are immortal in PvP because the template system statwise has them at that level.

The template system is entirely designed around the idea that everyone is playing 3v3 arena which only a small % of players are doing.

most dps particularly melee can solo healers, in fact is never been easier, and dps still have far to much self sustain currently and have far more then bc or even wrath (when speaking as a whole)

Most of your complaints isn't about healers healing its about general pruning of all the classes dumping down the game. Templates are also have nothing to do with skill pruning healers would have those stats either way, now you just don't get to one shot fresh 110 healers (or dps), you actually have to land your cc and interrupts for the kill.

[Deleted]

As long as some classes can do 100 to 0 bursts in a short time healers have to be able to outheal that...which sadly means that you won't get kills if you can do anything less than 100 to 0 bursts.

[Thelxi]

lol i survive a affli lock 1v1 as ele by letting him cast 2 UA then interrupt the 3rd and run away, no drain soul = shitty damage, god if only resto druid had more mobility than an affliction lock, but i guess you're solo on the resto druid and the DH has full CD's what exactly are you fighting for here? a tiny violin?

Wtf are you talking about. There is no way an ele shaman is going to kill an afflock 1v1 because "interrupt the 3rd UA". All an ele shammy can do is run away from the lock before it is too late.

You said that it takes at least 3 warriors to kill your resto druid, I called bullshit and am asking you to describe how you will survive. Running away from the fight is a plausible and realistic scenario, but not quite the same. Also, good luck running away from even just 2 melees as a resto druid.

[Rorke]

First of all I did read your post. Saying dps are less self-sufficient is wrong because dps can self-heal more than any previous expansion, especially taking into consideration the low healing coming out of actual healers. Maybe you mean to say something else, but "less self-sufficient" is little more than a whiny fart in the wind.

Second, healers are possible to solo in Legion. Assuming equal skill you can absolutely exhaust a healer's cooldowns and eventually kill him. That is the whole point. 2 dps can very easily overwhelm a single healer assuming equal (reasonably high) skill. Again, that is the whole point.

Let me really emphasize the truth here and repeat that you are very wrong in thinking that anyone needs a pocket healer to function these days. Get skada or details and actually look at the HPS of healers; you will see that 1 healer does about the same healing as 1 dps does damage, something that was absolutely never the case in any previous expansion where healers always did more/far more healing than a dps did damage.

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And saying that hunters flop over without a pocket healer.. dude. I don't want to tell you to get better but it might have to come to that.

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No you are definitely playing against bots (more likely noobs as botting is not as much of an issue anymore). I play both healers (far less in legion) and dps btw.

Healers have low sustained healing but their cds are 10 times more powerful than any dps cds. That's why the meta is when dps pop cds, healers pop cds and they always effectively counter two dps using cds at the same time.

You're HPS argument doesn't also factor in stuff like Earth Shield and Power Word Shield or the insane CC/Mobility R Sham/MW Monk/R Druids have. It's statistically and mechanically impossible for any skillcapped dps to kill any healer alone. An R Shaman can kite a Warrior enough where the Warrior won't have enough uptime to ever even pressure the R Sham without the dampening mechanic.

Dampening exists because otherwise games would never end. 2's is broken because Healer/dps is insanely more powerful than dps/dps because dps/dps have zero survivability and are fighting against the clock. The few double dps comps that work in 2's like double rogue have to play extremely well and can't afford any mistakes to beat a healer/dps comp which would actually be impossible to do if dampening didn't start in 2's.

I'm not sure whether to take your arguement that dps have more self healing now than last expansion. I mean even DK's as livelords as they are are still weaker defensively than they were in WoD. No more death siphon, no more desecrated ground, no more lichborne. Warriors lost having both DbTS and Enraged Regeneration + Shield Barrier, Rogues lost Double Evasion, Mages lost self healing from Ice Block and Evocation Healing, hybrids like Spriest/Ele/Balance/WWMonk/Ret off healing is complete trash to what it used to be.

In fact there's a reason why a lot of Rets hate Legion Ret because they feel that it plays too much like Warrior instead of being a support dps. And its true because every dps is designed exactly like Warrior now. Blizzard has done everything they could to remove the ability for hybrid dps to take on a support role.

This puts more responsibility on the role of the healer. A skilled capped healer decides an outcome far more than a skill capped dps does. This creates a game where the healer player is far more valuable than a dps player. A skill capped healer can basically carry bad dps team mates while skill capped dps could never carry a bad healer.

That kind of power disparity is why this game isn't fun for me anymore. When you play dps, you just feel like a pawn that has to rely on someone else to carry you.

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most dps particularly melee can solo healers, in fact is never been easier, and dps still have far to much self sustain currently and have far more then bc or even wrath (when speaking as a whole)

Most of your complaints isn't about healers healing its about general pruning of all the classes dumping down the game. Templates are also have nothing to do with skill pruning healers would have those stats either way, now you just don't get to one shot fresh 110 healers (or dps), you actually have to land your cc and interrupts for the kill.

Templates killed off healing for hybrid dps.

Templates put every dps class in a box based on whatever their main arena comp is. Some classes like Warrior can still play in a variety of comps while a classes like Mage/Hunter are limited to one or two.

Templates are bad for the game.

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It would be hard to give locks more sustain. Aff is practically does all its own healing between drain soul, healthstones and demon skin. Demo and destro both have plenty of sustain albeit less ridiculous.

Locks don't need sustain but they need better design than just "let me stand still and hardcast with my passive Soul Leech while my R Shaman buddy keeps Earth Shield on me so melee that tunnel me can't kill me."

Blizzard's class fantasy bullshit this expansion is the reason the awful Lock design exists. They don't want to give Locks port or any form of mobility because that would go against Blizzard idea how what the warlock class fantasy should be.