So Alliance lost the Nightborne beacuse Tyrande was a dick?

[Doffen]

No, what I'm saying is night elves have a history and continues addiction, deny it, outcast those who have admitted or outward addictions instead of helping them. That's why nightborne are horde, they relate to the blood Elves, share their same struggles and know they will find a sympathetic ear. As we have seen the night elves are still giant xenophobic cocks.

Lol. Allright.

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They also lost the Forsaken because they were a dick.
And then they lost the Blood Elves again because Night Elves were a dick.
Remember when the Blood Elves tried to re-join them again and Dalaran was being a dick?

The pattern is intense!

Of course, if the pattern wasn't like this the ally vs horde faction balance would be 80/20 in alliance favor.

[Hitei]

I don't mind Horde having Nightborne, my problem will be with them having Thalyssra or the Nightborne as a whole.

It just doesn't make sense for that group to join the Horde. They were assited by both factions equally. Sure, Tyrande was annoyed that her people were dying to protect the highborne who hid from the Legion 10,000 years ago and now can't fight for themselves, but her people were also dying for their cause.

All of the Highborne's other story allies (other meaning not Alliance/Horde) are Night Elves: druid refugees from Val'sharah (Cenarion Circle, led by Malfurion), Valewalker Farodin, part of an ancient Night Elf order who worked alongside Highborne magi, the remains of the Moon Guard, Night Elves who were last under the command of Jarod. All of these are factions unlikely to join the Horde, and very likely to work alongside the Alliance. So it seems rather silly for the Nightborne to abandon all their allies.

Secondly, this move kinda throws the entire campaign where they learned that the path forward into a new age was through a balance of druidic and arcane magic. The obvious next step here would be to approach the Night Elves, who are literally made up of Druids and the remains of the Highborne (ancient arcane magic).

Third, the Nightborne just got rid of Elisande, a tyrannical, power-hungry leader willing to kill or imprison those who went against her will and who made a pact with an evil force to save her people from destruction--why on earth would they join a faction that is led by Sylvanas, a tyrannical, power-hungry leader willing to kill or imprison those who go against her will, who made a pact with an evil force just to increase her and her own people's standing.

The Nightfallen-led Nightborne should stay Nuetral. It just makes no sense for them to switch factions--Even if some random Night Elf assassin tried to kill Thalyssra, am I really supposed to believe that she is going to join the Horde and fight me, the person who personally saved her multiple times, fed her when she was struggling to hold on, gathered her allies and formed her rebellion, trained her grunts and struck down Elisande? I don't buy it.

The obvious solution, and I really, really hope Blizzard goes this route. Is to make the Horde Nightborne the remnants of Elisande's supporters, not the Nightfallen-led forces. It's not like we killed everyone in Suramar. There are hundreds of Nightborne who were supporting Elisande and perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to both the Legion and the actions of the Duskwatch.

These are the Horde Nightborne. The ones who, with Thalyssra's return to power and Elisande's fall, will be outcasts and exiles facing imprisonment, death, etc. The ones who NEED allies, and need to leave Suramar to find another place to call home. That is part of what it means to be Horde, to be the underdog, the outcast, the group with questionable motives, ready to embrace power, not druidic-arcane balance. It would be perfect for a group of exiles to seek asylum with the blood elves and the Horde, and these are the Nightborne who wouldn't mind Sylvanas' approach to leadership, because they are the ones who were fine with Elisande being in power so long as they benefited.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

TBF we don't know the full reasoning right now behind the Nightborne. The common speculation is to blame Tyrande, but for all we know this is more about Liadrin and Silgryn than it is about Tyrande and Thalyssra.

[Magnagarde]

Tyrande was a dick and rightfully so. These night elves were hiding behind a dome for ten millenia, letting their kin suffer and fight a war that is theirs too. Even after these ten millenia, they still largely sided with Gul'dan and still needed saving. Not only did they not help, but they helped the enemy in the end. Everyone should've been a dick towards the nightborne.

I don't understand what the big deal is with people disliking when certain characters are rightfully dicks towards another character. There is Garithos-tier dick characters and then there's characters that have a reason to be dicks.

[Deleted]

No, because of gameplay balance tbh. They couldve swapped the elves just as easily if they wanted to.

[Kathranis]

These are the Horde Nightborne. The ones who, with Thalyssra's return to power and Elisande's fall, will be outcasts and exiles facing imprisonment, death, etc.

Completely disagree. The blood elves basically approached the Nightfallen with open arms and fully supported Thalyssra, courting her to their side almost from the start, while Tyrande was aloof and dismissive. Why, then, would the rebels push their exiles and criminals off to the Horde?

I'm not saying that all Nightborne should join the Horde -- perhaps the Horde faction will be a smaller splinter group led by Silgryn, a sort of trial run -- but the groundwork for the alliance with the Horde has already been laid out in game over the span of several patches. When push comes to shove in BfA, why wouldn't they favor those who are not only the most like-minded, but those who made the strongest ovations?

[ello]

I don't mind Horde having Nightborne, my problem will be with them having Thalyssra or the Nightborne as a whole.

Having those characters join the Horde is like 50% of the appeal. The Alliance is getting the AOTL charactes like Alleria and Turalyon, the Horde should get new characters too.

Secondly, this move kinda throws the entire campaign where they learned that the path forward into a new age was through a balance of druidic and arcane magic. The obvious next step here would be to approach the Night Elves, who are literally made up of Druids and the remains of the Highborne (ancient arcane magic).

They probably did, but Tyrande "I don't trust you crack addicts" Whisperwind said no. That means they are left with one option if they want to be a world power again - The Horde.

The obvious solution, and I really, really hope Blizzard goes this route. Is to make the Horde Nightborne the remnants of Elisande's supporters, not the Nightfallen-led forces. It's not like we killed everyone in Suramar. There are hundreds of Nightborne who were supporting Elisande and perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to both the Legion and the actions of the Duskwatch

They already mentioned Thalyssra would be involved in the intro quests more than once.

[Hitei]

Having those characters join the Horde is like 50% of the appeal. The Alliance is getting the AOTL charactes like Alleria and Turalyon, the Horde should get new characters too.

They probably did, but Tyrande "I don't trust you crack addicts" Whisperwind said no. That means they are left with one option if they want to be a world power again - The Horde.

Having those characters join the Horde makes zero sense. It completely throws the entire campaign out of the window for Alliance players, and they just got rid of Elisande, why are they joining an even worse Elisande?

Tyrande had no problem allowing the Shen'dralar into the Night Elves. There is no reason for her to deny the Nightborne who helped fight against the Legion and have now broken their addiction with druidic magic. So no.

They already mentioned Thalyssra would be involved in the intro quests more than once

That's fine. it's still really dumb. Also, if they just said involved, that tells us nothing. Thalyssra would obviously be involved in the starting experience for exiles as well.

Completely disagree. The blood elves basically approached the Nightfallen with open arms and fully supported Thalyssra, courting her to their side almost from the start, while Tyrande was aloof and dismissive. Why, then, would the rebels push their exiles and criminals off to the Horde?

I'm not saying that all Nightborne should join the Horde -- perhaps the Horde faction will be a smaller splinter group led by Silgryn, a sort of trial run -- but the groundwork for the alliance with the Horde has already been laid out in game over the span of several patches.

I'm not saying the Nightfallen would push their exiles and criminals to the Horde. I'm saying there is no reason for the Nightborne to not stay neutral, and sure as hell no reason for them to favor the Horde over the Alliance--But those Nightborne who have now been disposed will be looking to leave Suramar or be exiled, and they might look at the Horde, a collection of outcasts and survivors made stronger together, and pursue that option.

What groundwork? A single conversation between a secondary Nightborne character and Liadrin? I don't see how that trumps the groundwork laid out by the entire first half of the Suramar campaign.

When push comes to shove in BfA, why wouldn't they favor those who are not only the most like-minded, but those who made the strongest ovations?

When push comes to shove in BfA, why would they favor a faction led by exactly the sort of person they just fought an entire civil war to overthrow? Why would they join a faction where half the population walks around half-dressed in animal pelts and bone spikes when they thought the Night Elves were too savage? Why would they completely discard the lessons they learned with the Arcan'dor, the history behind it, and the new allies they made--because one Blood Elf said "Yeah, joining the Horde worked out eventually even though there were bad times."

It's nonsense. It makes far more sense for the Nightborne joining the Horde to be Dustwatch exiles (the armor even looks like it) than the Nightfallen or Thalyssra.

[ello]

Having those characters join the Horde makes zero sense. It completely throws the entire campaign out of the window for Alliance players,

And the AOTL joining the Alliance throws the Argus campaign out for Horde players.

Tyrande had no problem allowing the Shen'dralar into the Night Elves. There is no reason for her to deny the Nightborne who helped fight against the Legion and have now broken their addiction with druidic magic. So no.

She clearly doesn't trust them. In Insurrection she says "I'll deal with Elisande but no promises after that". And she has good reasons for it considering what they did in WOTA.

That's fine. it's still really dumb. Also, if they just said involved, that tells us nothing. Thalyssra would obviously be involved in the starting experience for exiles as well.

Liadrin specifically says "I've been making headway with Thalyssra" in the Blizzcon demo. Again, those characters are a major part of the appeal.

[Rotted]

So I'm missing something here,

What did she do?

[Rhlor]

the real reason we will see in the quest lines where we recruit them in BFA

[ello]

So I'm missing something here,

What did she do?

Basically, it comes down to these two conversations :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-BSeuT1Mw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pBK4xvZc0g

At least that's what we have so far, may see stronger justifications in 7.3.5.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Lady Liandrin is just the better diplomat, wheres Tyrande is a grumpy old cunt.

[Deleted]

I hope not, that'd be super bad writing for any adult characters...

I still think it is weird to have the entire Nightborne faction join the Horde after all the help they've received from the Alliance as well as the Horde. I mean if the Highborne could be accepted back into nightelven society, why couldn't the Nightborne? I think a pandaren-style split of the faction would have been most logical, with some Nightborne trying to mend their ruined society, some buddying up with the blood elves and some with the night elves/Highborne. But as usual, gameplay stands in the way of lore, for Blizz has stated they didn't like the pandaren experiment, so the Horde got the Nightborne (no use for two near-identical elves on the Alliance). At any rate, I'll be sure to show Thalyssra how I feel about her total disregard for my aid when I come across her in Orgrimmar

[Rhlor]

Completely disagree. The blood elves basically approached the Nightfallen with open arms and fully supported Thalyssra, courting her to their side almost from the start, while Tyrande was aloof and dismissive. Why, then, would the rebels push their exiles and criminals off to the Horde?

I'm not saying that all Nightborne should join the Horde -- perhaps the Horde faction will be a smaller splinter group led by Silgryn, a sort of trial run -- but the groundwork for the alliance with the Horde has already been laid out in game over the span of several patches. When push comes to shove in BfA, why wouldn't they favor those who are not only the most like-minded, but those who made the strongest ovations?

in the demo of the blizzcon lady liadrin and lor'themar are negotiating with thalyssra and baine with mayla

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I hope not, that'd be super bad writing for any adult characters...

I still think it is weird to have the entire Nightborne faction join the Horde after all the help they've received from the Alliance as well as the Horde. I mean if the Highborne could be accepted back into nightelven society, why couldn't the Nightborne? I think a pandaren-style split of the faction would have been most logical, with some Nightborne trying to mend their ruined society, some buddying up with the blood elves and some with the night elves/Highborne. But as usual, gameplay stands in the way of lore, for Blizz has stated they didn't like the pandaren experiment, so the Horde got the Nightborne (no use for two near-identical elves on the Alliance). At any rate, I'll be sure to show Thalyssra how I feel about her total disregard for my aid when I come across her in Orgrimmar

that would have been a good choice but the players of the alliance wanted to play with the blood elf model and they had to give the horde a model of the alliance to compensate

[Nurasu]

Tyrande was just the mouthpiece Blizzard used to express the differences in culture between the Kal'dorei and Shal'dorei.

[Hitei]

And the AOTL joining the Alliance throws the Argus campaign out for Horde players.

It doesn't. There is a very clear difference.
The Army of the Light is made up almost entirely of Eredar who survived and escaped the Legion, it is lead by a human who was once part of the Alliance, immediately returns to answering to Velen as a second leader, and has Alleria "I hate the Horde" Windrunner as one of its higher ups. The neutrality of the AotL is utilitarian, they accept the Horde's help because there is a war to win, but there was never any question of who the faction was actually made up of. When your top three people are all Alliance characters, one of whom is decidedly anti-Horde, the second of whom fought against the Horde in past wars, and the last of whom is an Alliance racial leader whose people were slaughtered at the hands of the Orcish Horde, and were saved by the Night Elves... it's pretty obvious you're probably going to join the Alliance when the dust settles.

The Nightfallen do not have those connections--particularly with the Horde. They are an offshoot of the Highborne (the remaining Highborne and Night Elves in general are Alliance), who have had nothing to do with the Alliance and Horde until this moment. Their allies are a Night Elven druid whose order was made up of the first druids (read: followers of Malfurion, whose wife is an alliance racial leader, and whose teacher was killed by Orcs at on epoint) Night Elven druids who are an active part of the Cenarion Circle (a group of mostly Night Elves who again, are lead by Malfurion), and the remnants of the Moon Guard (a faction who fought as part of the Night Elven resistance alongside Tyrande and Malfurion in the war of the ancients). And then the Horde and Alliance.

Do you see the problem here? The Army of the Light is made up of Alliance forces with strong Alliance connections cooperating briefly with the Horde to fight on Argus.

The Nightborne are a neutral group of Night Elves whose only tenuous faction connections are on the Alliance side, who worked alongside both the Alliance and Horde equally to take back Suramar.

She clearly doesn't trust them. In Insurrection she says "I'll deal with Elisande but no promises after that". And she has good reasons for it considering what they did in WOTA.

No, she clearly doesn't want to keep letting her forces die to protect them. She is saying that she'll help them win this war but after that they are going to actually have to work at bettering themselves.

Liadrin specifically says "I've been making headway with Thalyssra" in the Blizzcon demo. Again, those characters are a major part of the appeal.

And again, it makes no fucking sense for them to be picking one side or the other. It's just bad writing for the sake of balancing out Alliance getting pseudo high elves.

[ello]

The Nightfallen do not have those connections--particularly with the Horde.

Liadrin made those connections in 7.1 and 7.3 and apparently continued to do so while Tyrande wasn't interested.

No, she clearly doesn't want to keep letting her forces die to protect them. She is saying that she'll help them win this war but after that they are going to actually have to work at bettering themselves.

no she said " we'll see what muddah moon says " after suggesting Thalyssra might be the next Azshara.

And again, it makes no fucking sense for them to be picking one side or the other.

sure it does, they want to be a world player again. The alliance wont have them so they turn to the Horde. Also it's not fair to give the Alliance new characters and not do the same for the red team. Especially when the Horde need it more right now.

[Hitei]

Liadrin made those connections in 7.1 and 7.3 and apparently continued to do so while Tyrande wasn't interested.

No. Don't even.

One secondary Nightborne hanging out with one Blood Elf is not even remotely the same thing as a faction's leaders being fundamentally Alliance characters, and answering to an Alliance racial leader.

no she said " we'll see what muddah moon says " after suggesting Thalyssra might be the next Azshara.

There is zero evidence of that claim.

sure it does, they want to be a world player again. The alliance wont have them so they turn to the Horde.

Again, you are just making this up. There's nothing to suggest the Alliance wouldn't take them. They are already allied with the forces working under Malfurion and the remnants of the army who fought alongside Tyrande, Malfurion and Jarod.

Also it's not fair to give the Alliance new characters and not do the same for the red team. Especially when the Horde need it more right now.

Exactly.

It is pure fanservice to balance out what is happening with the Alliance and Void Elves. Ruining characters with poorly thought out hand-waving is not a good solution to "we need characters!" Doing things like bringing in the Zandalari, Mayla and Ebonhorn, or Silgryn and the Duskwatch Exiles are good examples of how to introduce characters to the Horde without pulling a dramatic character shift out of nowhere that is a slap across the face for what half of your player base has been doing for the better part of a year.

[Deleted]

How can you lose something you never had?