Was Arthas that much worse a person than Illidan (spoilers)

[YUPPIE]

Illidan spent most of his life roped in villainy under the belief he was doing the right thing, and while his fate might seem nightmarish, it's actually what he'd want and Illidan seems to ultimately ends up as a true hero and savior of Azeroth. Even if in-universe characters don't like to outwardly admit it, he's totally redeemed himself and got the recognition he's always wanted.

Arthas was supposed to be a hero but also ended up a villain. Unlike Illidan, though, he had no redemption arc or anything like that (a memorable quest in Icecrown taunts and savagely crushes the very notion of this), dies the horrible villain he was since becoming the LK, and suffers a fate worse than death for all eternity and no one remembers him for anything but his evil.

It's just weird how Arthas and Illidan's journeys ended up, and I'm wondering if Arthas was such a worse person than Stormrage he deserved what he got.

[Kikazz]

in the end arthas did get redemption, you could see as he was dying and was in his fathers arms, you could see everything that happened really wasnt him, it was the corruption of the crown and Frostmourne that drove him mad and turned him the way he went,

he didnt mean for it all to happen like that, he despised the scourge yet under the influence embraced and empowered it.

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

[YUPPIE]

in the end arthas did get redemption, you could see as he was dying and was in his fathers arms, you could see everything that happened really wasnt him, it was the corruption of the crown and Frostmourne that drove him mad and turned him the way he went,

he didnt mean for it all to happen like that, he despised the scourge yet under the influence embraced and empowered it.

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

I think the very idea Arthas was mind controlled at all was disconfirmed a while ago.

[Jowany]

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

I am expecting "Return of Illidan" as very powerfull servant of Sargeras in one of next exp. Eterniny of Sargeras' influence will poison Illidans mind and he becomes one of most powerful demons. And Legion will return, once.

[Maljinwo]

I am expecting "Return of Illidan" as very powerfull servant of Sargeras in one of next exp. Eterniny of Sargeras' influence will poison Illidans mind and he becomes one of most powerful demons. And Legion will return, once.

It's sad that I believe this could actually happen.
Knowing Blizzard we will fight against Illidan using a resurrected Arthas

[omeomorfismo]

i doubt that directly genociding 2 entire nations could allow a redemption story as illidan

[YUPPIE]

i doubt that directly genociding 2 entire nations could allow a redemption story as illidan

well I mean the idea of Arthas being brainwashed, redeemable, or something like that was thoroughly explored in Wrath until it was deemed that he was 100% evil but, for all his boasting of being a villain, there are some hints like with Jaina and his final words that maybbeee it was not what it seemed but this wasn't explored entirely.

For the time being, he's fucked in the afterlife with no way out as a scared boy.

[Deleted]

I think the very idea Arthas was mind controlled at all was disconfirmed a while ago.

Mind controlled he was not, but his soul was lost and with it all that made him good. Poor boy.

[omeomorfismo]

well I mean the idea of Arthas being brainwashed, redeemable, or something like that was thoroughly explored in Wrath until it was deemed that he was 100% evil but, for all his boasting of being a villain, there are some hints like with Jaina and his final words that maybbeee it was not what it seemed but this wasn't explored entirely.

For the time being, he's fucked in the afterlife with no way out as a scared boy.

but how you can build something with him? trying something like "i dont want to be a bad king as varian and my father, so i tried to give all UNDEAD WELFARE!!!"?
maybe as a forsaken player i can even try to empathize with this, but an alliance one? with their light/life zealotry?

[Venziir]

in the end arthas did get redemption, you could see as he was dying and was in his fathers arms, you could see everything that happened really wasnt him, it was the corruption of the crown and Frostmourne that drove him mad and turned him the way he went,

he didnt mean for it all to happen like that, he despised the scourge yet under the influence embraced and empowered it.

they both had there time, and Illidan got an eternity of suffering as well, being Sergares' Jailer.

1: He was never redeemed
2: He was never mindcontrolled, if anything he was in total control.

[Qualia]

Arthas was supposed to be a hero but also ended up a villain. Unlike Illidan, though, he had no redemption arc or anything like that (a memorable quest in Icecrown taunts and savagely crushes the very notion of this), dies the horrible villain he was since becoming the LK, and suffers a fate worse than death for all eternity and no one remembers him for anything but his evil.

It's just weird how Arthas and Illidan's journeys ended up, and I'm wondering if Arthas was such a worse person than Stormrage he deserved what he got.

Arthas was only supposed to be a hero before WC3 even started. Since WC3 until the moment of his death, the only time his actions might have been driven by a goodwill was, ironically, his Stratholme purge.

[Ielenia]

1: He was never redeemed
2: He was never mindcontrolled, if anything he was in total control.

If you really think his mind, his judgment wasn't being affected, then I got a bridge to sell you. Arthas went from "I'll do anything to avenge my people" to "kill all the living". If you think he wasn't mind controlled, then that transition makes absolutely no sense. On top of that, here's further evidence that he was indeed being mind-controlled: Bolvar Fordragon. He was heroic throughout Wrath, to the end, but now, in Legion, he's a hair width away from becoming Arthas 2.0, as we see his care toward the living taking a plummet, what with having our DK character resurrect dead heroes, fight the red dragonflight, desecrate tombs, etc. For no reason whatsoever, if you believe mind-control didn't happen.

[Eazy]

I am expecting "Return of Illidan" as very powerfull servant of Sargeras in one of next exp. Eterniny of Sargeras' influence will poison Illidans mind and he becomes one of most powerful demons. And Legion will return, once.

I think it will be other way. Maybe Illidan will make Sargeras our friend.

If he became once again a villain I'm going to stop playing this game. And I'm dead seriously right now. I didn't say anything about quitting in all these years, but this would be too much.

If you really think his mind, his judgment wasn't being affected, then I got a bridge to sell you. Arthas went from "I'll do anything to avenge my people" to "kill all the living". If you think he wasn't mind controlled, then that transition makes absolutely no sense. On top of that, here's further evidence that he was indeed being mind-controlled: Bolvar Fordragon. He was heroic throughout Wrath, to the end, but now, in Legion, he's a hair width away from becoming Arthas 2.0, as we see his care toward the living taking a plummet, what with having our DK character resurrect dead heroes, fight the red dragonflight, desecrate tombs, etc. For no reason whatsoever, if you believe mind-control didn't happen.

He wasn't mindcontrolled. Maybe Ner'zhul changed his point of view, maybe he shown him a future or something. But it's clear that it was Arthas decision. In the Christie Golden book it's explained that it was ONLY ARTHAS in wotlk. He could be manipulated by Ner'zhul, but in the end - it was him all along.

Anyway - Bolvar is Bolvar untill Blizzard says otherwise. People change. The crown shown him the knowledge of Arthas and Ner'zhul(explained in the Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden, that the one who wears the crown receives the knowledge of people who wore it before). It's pretty obvious right now...

If you don't understand yet then I guess the quote from Nietzsche would help:

If you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.

[omeomorfismo]

If you really think his mind, his judgment wasn't being affected, then I got a bridge to sell you. Arthas went from "I'll do anything to avenge my people" to "kill all the living". If you think he wasn't mind controlled, then that transition makes absolutely no sense. On top of that, here's further evidence that he was indeed being mind-controlled: Bolvar Fordragon. He was heroic throughout Wrath, to the end, but now, in Legion, he's a hair width away from becoming Arthas 2.0, as we see his care toward the living taking a plummet, what with having our DK character resurrect dead heroes, fight the red dragonflight, desecrate tombs, etc. For no reason whatsoever, if you believe mind-control didn't happen.

people change. he was scared to lose his people, but he cant lose anyone if is undead.
the horse metaphor is pretty clear D:

[Ielenia]

He wasn't mindcontrolled. Maybe Ner'zhul changed his point of view, maybe he shown him a future or something. But it's clear that it was Arthas decision. In the Christie Golden book it's explained that it was ONLY ARTHAS in wotlk. He could be manipulated by Ner'zhul, but in the end - it was him all along.

I'm not saying he was mind-controlled in the 'strings-and-puppeteer' sense, but his mind was clearly affected. He was clearly being influenced by the dark power of the sword and helm. Again, we have Bolvar now wearing the helmet. If the helmet wasn't influencing Arthas, then why is Bolvar's character shift so glaring since the last time we saw him?

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people change. he was scared to lose his people, but he cant lose anyone if is undead.
the horse metaphor is pretty clear D:

Doesn't explain Bolvar.

[Eazy]

I'm not saying he was mind-controlled in the 'strings-and-puppeteer' sense, but his mind was clearly affected. He was clearly being influenced by the dark power of the sword and helm.

Then we both agree.

Again, we have Bolvar now wearing the helmet. If the helmet wasn't influencing Arthas, then why is Bolvar's character shift so glaring since the last time we saw him?

Check out my comment above.

[Qualia]

If you really think his mind, his judgment wasn't being affected, then I got a bridge to sell you. Arthas went from "I'll do anything to avenge my people" to "kill all the living". If you think he wasn't mind controlled, then that transition makes absolutely no sense. On top of that, here's further evidence that he was indeed being mind-controlled: Bolvar Fordragon. He was heroic throughout Wrath, to the end, but now, in Legion, he's a hair width away from becoming Arthas 2.0, as we see his care toward the living taking a plummet, what with having our DK character resurrect dead heroes, fight the red dragonflight, desecrate tombs, etc. For no reason whatsoever, if you believe mind-control didn't happen.

Turning into an Undead makes you hate the living, and Bolvar's experience was more than enough to make anyone bitter and jaded.

And there is a big different between having your mind muddled by turning into undead and being mind controlled. Arthas, even after become Lich King, had always been in full control of himself.

[omeomorfismo]

I'm not saying he was mind-controlled in the 'strings-and-puppeteer' sense, but his mind was clearly affected. He was clearly being influenced by the dark power of the sword and helm. Again, we have Bolvar now wearing the helmet. If the helmet wasn't influencing Arthas, then why is Bolvar's character shift so glaring since the last time we saw him?

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Doesn't explain Bolvar.

being killed by gas and life dragon's flames, tortured, necro-ressed, thousand of voices/scream in his head and fucktons of power dont explain why bolvar changed? seriously?

[Ielenia]

Turning into an Undead makes you hate the living, and Bolvar's experience was more than enough to make anyone bitter and jaded.

And there is a big different between having your mind muddled by turning into undead and being mind controlled. Arthas, even after become Lich King, had always been in full control of himself.

Arthas was already sacrificing his people even before he turned into undead. Muradien apparently died when Arthas pulled the Frostmourne from its resting place, but Arthas has shown no reaction or remorse from that. He destroyed half of Silvermoon and decimated the elves before turning undead. As far as we know, he only turned 'undead' when he removed his own frozen heart.

As for Bolvar, if it was true, he wouldn't sacrifice himself to the helmet if he was bitter and jaded. In fact, we see him in sound mind after we kill the Lich King.

The most logical explanation is that helmet does have an influence and does corrupt the mind of the wearer.

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being killed by gas and life dragon's flames, tortured, necro-ressed, thousand of voices/scream in his head and fucktons of power dont explain why bolvar changed? seriously?

We see him in sound mind after we kill the Lich King. Also, "thousand of voices in his head"?

[Arrashi]

The diffrence betwen illidan and arthas is that illidan always was anti-hero who pushed the border of anti-heroism further and further as story went.
Arthas started as hero (for a very short moment) turned into anti-hero about halfway through human campaign and was full blown villain in the end of it.