The Brexit aftermath thread

[alexw]

If it wasn't so serious and the stakes so high it would be comical. I can't help but think we'd have been better off with David Brent in charge rather David Davis.

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I have a quick question to any leave voters in the thread; given that one of the reasons for voting out of the EU was to take back control and to stop the unelected officials in Brussels ruling over the UK, do you really think that this lot are up to the job?

He should of have gone with "I had them, but I took them home. I left them on my kitchen table and the dog ate them. Sorry. I really hate it when spot eats my eats my homework. Sorry. Really really sorry".

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Outstanding stuff from Davis today :

https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall/s...65253255036928
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/statu...82001203228673
the government hasn't carried out formal studies of the economic and industrial impact of Brexit? but has made 'judgements'. Sums it up really.

I see you have decided to follow the American economic model -

[ranzino]

And as @Slant said earlier, all you'd need is a single terrorist attack on a customs checkpoint for the Troubles to begin anew and the border have to be manned by the military.

angry protesters wont do the trick ? i would expect some riots at the border anyway.

[Dhrizzle]

Only a Brexiteer could see the utter chaos that is our current governments stance on Brexit as a positive.

You're all insane.

Even the staunchest Brexiteers know that our current position is terrible. The only people who could see any sort of positive here would be bitter Europeans who consider the UK ending in the worst possible situation to be a well deserved come-uppance for for upsetting the stability and prosperity of all current EU nations.

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Any other situation than the current incompetent government risks a concessive deal with the EU and a soft non brexit, why would I wish for UK governance that had a clue and risks that?

Sorry to disappoint with my posts but brexiteers are in the very best position currently that they could ask for and remainers could not be in a worse position. Ask yourself that when clearly there are enough brexit supporting back benchers to trigger a conservative leadership election why haven't they done that? Perhaps it would risk a general election and who knows what those surrounding Corbyn want should they get in, certainly it may jeopardise brexit. Theresa May seems happy to be the fall guy and will carry the can for any perceived brexit failures, let her for as long as she can.

All Theresa May has to do is bumble along with her characteristic incompetence and without agreement until we reach the March 2019 finish line and Brexit means Brexit. I'm all for that. Can she do that? More by luck than judgement I suppose but it doesn't matter how we get past March 2019 without a deal, just that we do.

Within the month once out of the EU the tory knives will be out and Theresa May gone. It is then we need competence in government, not now, and the world will see no deal is better than any deal.

You do know that the UK's EU membership could be extended if we haven't reached a deal by the cut-off date, right?

[Noradin]

You do know that the UK's EU membership could be extended if we haven't reached a deal by the cut-off date, right?

It could, but I find it unlikely and I wouldn't be in favour of just giving the UK more time to waste on deciding what they want out of Brexit.
I'd expect compensation for for the other memberstates for the economic losses the continued uncertainty causes.

[ranzino]

....
You do know that the UK's EU membership could be extended if we haven't reached a deal by the cut-off date, right?

UK would have to get their stuff together next week, not in early 2019 to let this happen.
If the obstacles are not solved almost immediately, UK could have its cold hart Brexit in march 2018, no need to drag it out any further.
Hard border and "no deal": such negotiations can be solved within weeks and technically that's all to the matter.

[Slant]

You do know that the UK's EU membership could be extended if we haven't reached a deal by the cut-off date, right?

That would have to be decided by the remaining members by a unanimous vote. Translated: Every country in the EU has a veto against that. You can calculate the odds that someone will veto just out of principle.

[Deleted]

That would have to be decided by the remaining members by a unanimous vote. Translated: Every country in the EU has a veto against that. You can calculate the odds that someone will veto just out of principle.

I would want my government to veto it.
Democracy, the idea that the people know what they want, and deserve it hard and fast.

[Jastall]

Any other situation than the current incompetent government risks a concessive deal with the EU and a soft non brexit, why would I wish for UK governance that had a clue and risks that?

Sorry to disappoint with my posts but brexiteers are in the very best position currently that they could ask for and remainers could not be in a worse position. Ask yourself that when clearly there are enough brexit supporting back benchers to trigger a conservative leadership election why haven't they done that? Perhaps it would risk a general election and who knows what those surrounding Corbyn want should they get in, certainly it may jeopardise brexit. Theresa May seems happy to be the fall guy and will carry the can for any perceived brexit failures, let her for as long as she can.

All Theresa May has to do is bumble along with her characteristic incompetence and without agreement until we reach the March 2019 finish line and Brexit means Brexit. I'm all for that. Can she do that? More by luck than judgement I suppose but it doesn't matter how we get past March 2019 without a deal, just that we do.

Within the month once out of the EU the tory knives will be out and Theresa May gone. It is then we need competence in government, not now, and the world will see no deal is better than any deal.

So basically, you don't give a shit about the good governance of your country, so long as you can claim that your political team won? What do you think this is, some sort of football match with you as the resident hooligan who is just there to smack the other side on the face?

[Noradin]

None of that made any sense to anyone that isn't you.

You are assuming a lot (as in, you assume it made any sense to him).

[Slant]

What democracy? It was a non-binding referendum with a lot of abstention and a slim majority. Why fuck all the people who voted to remain.

It's the people of the UK that decided the type of democracy that they want. A democracy that also decided on this referendum and the binding power it may or may not have. In Germany, such a question wouldn't be put to the vote of the population. Neither would a simple majority be enough in the congregation of both houses that would be necessary to alter the constitution in such a decisive action. But that is only how we choose to have the country run for us.

What @GoblinP said is absolutely correct. They chose this. And as sad as it is for the Remainers, that's how even they want their country run. It's their choice. They are free people, free to choose a different Government.

[dribbles]

And as @Slant said earlier, all you'd need is a single terrorist attack on a customs checkpoint for the Troubles to begin anew and the border have to be manned by the military.

Best the EU hurry up and sort their 5 billion euro army out for THEIR border then. Do you really think that's enough money to fund it properly? How do you think the Irish Republican Army will take to the EU army on their territory manning the checkpoints? Can't see any problems there....

Don't forget that porous as a sieve southern border whilst at it.

I would want my government to veto it.
Democracy, the idea that the people know what they want, and deserve it hard and fast.

I think you might get your hard and fast wish - each day of chaos that goes by an earlier than March 2019 exit becomes likelier. I do feel sorry for the countries that will have to make up the immediate loss of UK money, hope it doesn't bankrupt them, but they have had plenty of past opportunities to reach accommodations. It's only when you lose someone valuable that you take for granted that you miss them = good bye from the UK Eurochums.

So basically, you don't give a shit about the good governance of your country, so long as you can claim that your political team won? What do you think this is, some sort of football match with you as the resident hooligan who is just there to smack the other side on the face?

I support democracy and the will of the people, no more no less. It's the losing, vociferous, bullying, vocal minority remainers who are trying to overturn the referendum that are acting like hooligans and vandalising democracy.

[Deleted]

What democracy? It was a non-binding referendum with a lot of abstention and a slim majority. Why fuck all the people who voted to remain.

Because if we don't we are going to hear from the fringe crazies that the EU is undemocratic for overruling the glorious independence vote - And i'm just completely done with this shit.
The UK needs to leave the EU, if they have to be kicked out then so be it - I don't care if the UK literally disintegrates into England, Scotland, Wales, and we get a united Ireland, I don't care.
sorry to the 34% who voted remain.

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Best the EU hurry up and sort their 5 billion euro army out for THEIR border then. Do you really think that's enough money to fund it properly? How do you think the Irish Republican Army will take to the EU army on their territory manning the checkpoints? Can't see any problems there....

Don't forget that porous as a sieve southern border whilst at it.

You get that in a hard brexit situation, you will be legally compelled to enforce your border, as per WTO rules?
And it would be the responsibility of the Irish government to control the border, not the EU.

I think you might get your hard and fast wish - each day of chaos that goes by an earlier than March 2019 exit becomes likelier.

And this is supposed to scare me? You get that in the absence of any deals, the UK will have trouble feeding itself?
I'm not sure you understand the degree to which the UK economy would grind to a halt.
Note this guy voted Leave.

I do feel sorry for the countries that will have to make up the immediate loss of UK money,

Okay, EU countries account for about 42.8% of their GDP.
If all of them are required to fork money over to the EU to make up the gap, that figure will move slightly towards 43% - It's not much money.

[dribbles]

Because if we don't we are going to hear from the fringe crazies that the EU is undemocratic for overruling the glorious independence vote - And i'm just completely done with this shit.
The UK needs to leave the EU, if they have to be kicked out then so be it - I don't care if the UK literally disintegrates into England, Scotland, Wales, and we get a united Ireland, I don't care.
sorry to the 34% who voted remain.

You get that in a hard brexit situation, you will be legally compelled to enforce your border, as per WTO rules?
And it would be the responsibility of the Irish government to control the border, not the EU.

How does the EU get away with not enforcing their southern border then such that millions of illegals make it to Europe every year? I tell you what, when the EU complies with their international obligations so will we. Fair?

Okay, EU countries account for about 42.8% of their GDP.
If all of them are required to fork money over to the EU to make up the gap, that figure will move slightly towards 43% - It's not much money.

Let's put that in perspective shall we?



Nope not much money at all. Why are the EU making such a fuss over it if it's peanuts then?

[Vankrys]

You do know that the UK's EU membership could be extended if we haven't reached a deal by the cut-off date, right?

it is not a guaranty. After article 50 has been triggered, EU membership will be revoked after a 2 years period UNLESS all 27 members of the union agree to give more time.

Do you really planned on having a full 27 members agreement to give the UK more time when the UK has shown such blatant disregard for the negotiations. If only 1 member refuses to agree for a continuation, that's it the UK is out.

You have to assume EU membership will be revoked in march 2019, you can't count on extra time.

[Deleted]

How does the EU get away with not enforcing their southern border then such that millions of illegals make it to Europe every year?

Because ever since we outlawed slavery, WTO stopped caring about people moving across borders Duh.

Let's put that in perspective shall we?

the UK contribution to the EU is 0.5% of UK GDP or so.
The UK contribution to the EU in EU(27) GDP is about 0.13%.
It's truly insignificant.

[Noradin]

Nope not much money at all. Why are the EU making such a fuss over it if it's peanuts then?

We aren't really making a fuss, we just ask for some of the money the UK owns us.

[Deleted]

it is not a guaranty. After article 50 has been triggered, EU membership will be revoked after a 2 years period UNLESS all 27 members of the union agree to give more time.

Do you really planned on having a full 27 members agreement to give the UK more time when the UK has shown such blatant disregard for the negotiations. If only 1 member refuses to agree for a continuation, that's it the UK is out.

You have to assume EU membership will be revoked in march 2019, you can't count on extra time.

There are new elections to the EU parliament in may 2019 - The odds of the UK getting an extension and thus electing new MEPs is zero.

[Slant]

How does the EU get away with not enforcing their southern border then such that millions of illegals make it to Europe every year? I tell you what, when the EU complies with their international obligations so will we. Fair?

Lie. It's not even a glossing over of facts. It's such an outrageous lie that you literally deserve to be flogged for being so sloppy. At least do the research and just lie a little like every good propagandist. You're not even just rounding up generously. You're missing the target by almost two whole digits.

http://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/mediterranean

Apart from the obvious strawman and the EU member states absolutely enforcing their southern border, albeit not as well as everyone wishes. But shit happens, you get the ones you do, and some slip through. That's the thing with borders, they never actually stop everyone, as North Korea recently found out. So, yes. The EU is complying with their obligations. That is, its member states are. Since the EU doesn't have the organ nor the personnel to do it itself. See, this is why Ireland is so pissed off about the whole Brexit thing. And this is the bit you're missing in your blind attempt to pull arguments out of the darkest crevice of your digestion tract. And this is why Ireland will veto any bullshit.

So, you will get your chaos and mayhem, like you always wanted.

[Dhrizzle]

it is not a guaranty. After article 50 has been triggered, EU membership will be revoked after a 2 years period UNLESS all 27 members of the union agree to give more time.

Do you really planned on having a full 27 members agreement to give the UK more time when the UK has shown such blatant disregard for the negotiations. If only 1 member refuses to agree for a continuation, that's it the UK is out.

You have to assume EU membership will be revoked in march 2019, you can't count on extra time.

Ultimately it would be better for everyone if Britain had some sort of deal with the EU, and a 1 of 2 year interim where the UK still has to pay membership fees but doesn't get any new funds allocated could take some of the sting out of Brexit. Don't forget that for the most part the EU27 don't want to see the UK fall off a cliff, most of their frustrations seem to be with the UK government's gross incompetence and inability to decide what they want.

[Vankrys]

Ultimately it would be better for everyone if Britain had some sort of deal with the EU, and a 1 of 2 year interim where the UK still has to pay membership fees but doesn't get any new funds allocated could take some of the sting out of Brexit. Don't forget that for the most part the EU27 don't want to see the UK fall off a cliff, most of their frustrations seem to be with the UK government's gross incompetence and inability to decide what they want.

At some point, you have to get to an agreement on what is the UK. Is the UK a land? A political entity? Is the UK people living in the land? or is the UK the official elected representatives?


IMO, for all purposes, the UK is, for now, theresa May and her government. And frankly, i get a really bad vibe from that government, which mean i get a really bad vibe from the UK as a whole.



Unrelated but same idea, for all intended purposes the United States is, for now, Trump and the Trump administration. And i get a really bad vibe from the US too.