State of 10 man HC Antorus

[Leih]

Honestly if you're a 10-man guild it's easier to just PUG in ~5 extra randoms with highish ilvl each night. Even if they are randoms it's still probably easier doing it with the extra bodies than it is trying to play a perfect game with your 10 only. It was the same in Tomb. The mechanics don't scale very well when the numbers get that low.

[cparle87]

Normal drops 930 - how is average of 935 too low for Heroic..? Lol

I think he means to clear Antorus that's a bit low. The general timeframe with raiding is that it takes a couple of weeks of gearing up in a new difficulty before you have enough power to clear the entire thing. If you could walk in and clear heroic Antorus wearing heroic Tomb gear I'd have to suggest to the Blizz team that the raid needs to be made harder. Having 935 when most of the raid drops 945 and the final boss drops 955 does mean you're slightly undergeared for a clear.

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agree. Same goes to Coven. We had so much issues doing these bosses with raid size of like 12 people, whenever one dies, its literally a wipe. Then we just went 20 people of full raid team, and just destroyed dem bosses. It feels like the bigger raid size, the more forgive mistakes are

Also the more people the more buffs like innervates you have and the faster you generate battle rez charges.

[Deleted]

Raids are always a little harder when you only do it with 10 people. The assholes coming in here and saying otherwise are just that, assholes.

While it's not as bad as it was in WoD (when you literally wanted to bring certain amounts of people to cheese the numbers as much as possible), larger raid sizes typically make the fights easier as long as the additional people are correctly carrying their weight. Basically, with only 10 people, you're getting the 'true' raid experience, which means you guys either need to function better as a guild or upgrade your gear some more.

Ilgynoth with 10man was really hard as well.

Blizzard just fails at scaling mob health add add amount.

When at the beginning of the expansion we tried 10-13 man HC EN with returning raiders who were as well geared as top guild raiders going into EN it was like 1 dd accounted for roughly 10% damage but if you dropped 2 ddst he mob hp on Ilgynoth and the adds reduced by less than half of the damage we lost.

Then in addition to the mob health, you only had 6-8 damage dealers but still 6 targets spawning at the same time that want to be interrupted etc..

That just does not add up, it was unmanagable to one-shot him and then survive the next phase while blowing up the raid to 30 with below average randoms you suddenly had to wait between waves to spawn and could afk.


I wish Blizzard stopped the FLEX garbage and just made Normal/Heroic into one fixed 10 man raid mode that requires 1 and 1/2 tanks.

[Sarevokcz]

I think he means to clear Antorus that's a bit low. The general timeframe with raiding is that it takes a couple of weeks of gearing up in a new difficulty before you have enough power to clear the entire thing. If you could walk in and clear heroic Antorus wearing heroic Tomb gear I'd have to suggest to the Blizz team that the raid needs to be made harder. Having 935 when most of the raid drops 945 and the final boss drops 955 does mean you're slightly undergeared for a clear.

no it doesnt... the raid shouldnt require 940 gear if the upgrades are often marginal sidegrades at 945. thanks titanforging, wouldnt be an isue without you...
It likely isnt in this case as its more of a skill issue, but 10man size is notoriously bad tuning wise ever since flex was introduced.

[therealstegblob]

Ilgynoth with 10man was really hard as well.

We cleared normal and heroic Emerald Nightmare with a 10-11 man group. It wasn't very hard. Ilgynoth was a problem because of adds, yes, but it felt like a proper raid challenge more than it did badly tuned.

Not that I'm saying that the tuning isn't flawed, because it is. Like I said in my post, when you bring in more DPS or Healers, even if the boss gains more health and does more damage, the extra dps/heals you're bringing outweigh the increases, meaning the boss effectively takes more damage than if you were doing it with less people. The bosses don't scale very well, meaning more people is more dps and more utility.

[Deleted]

Like i already wrote.

When i say ilvl 935+, everybody has like 945+ in the bags. But you know, set bonuses do exist and outweight almost any ilvl increase by a mile. To offset a setbonuses u really need items that are ~40 ilvl higher than the tier pieces, depending on the bonus ofc.

You cant tell me that thats not enough gear for HC.

[potis]

Like i already wrote.

When i say ilvl 935+, everybody has like 945+ in the bags. But you know, set bonuses do exist and outweight almost any ilvl increase by a mile. To offset a setbonuses u really need items that are ~40 ilvl higher than the tier pieces, depending on the bonus ofc.

You cant tell me that thats not enough gear for HC.

Gear is irrelevant at moments at certain bosses, we had the same issues with Mistress at the first few weeks of ToS because we werent enough, mix of summer/slacking etc, doing her with 10-11 people is much harder than doing her with 16 and up.

There is a massive difference in 10 people being disabled , only for the 9 to go to 50-60% cause the damage is low, and it becomes much easier when the 9 people go to 30% instead but there are 7 others to do the rest mechanics.

Its part of the flex imbalance on some bosses, there isnt much you can do other than tryhard it, figure out a way that works for your team, or simply pug 5 extra DPS and cleave it down.

Which if you wanna keep a tight knit little group, you must at least have 2 tanks and 3 healers in that group yourself, pugging DPS is the easy part.

[Deleted]

What are you struggling with? There's literally no challenging healing or DPS check until the add phase, and even then 2 healers should easily be able to keep the raid up throughout the initial part of the phase, before adds are steadily ticked down.

There's one somewhat hard part in the entire fight, and that is the final phase where healing requirement can be rough if people don't do what they're supposed to do, aka. stack up, avoid floor shit, move out with bombs and kill machines.

Can you link logs? Let's see what your 2 healers and/or your DPS are doing that makes you believe Argus is impossible to kill with 2/2/6.

[Probably]

I went into HC Aggramar expecting the amount of adds to spawn in p2 to be lower with a lower group size. I was wrong.

It felt pretty punishing to do him with 11 people, and still get 6 adds to spawn. It was a mess. We had to start coordinating which adds to kill to delay their movements to the boss because we didn't have enough CC, and only 2 ranged. We eventually killed it, and comparing it to my previous kill in a larger group setting it sucked.

Also we walked into Argus with 13 people and it just fell over. Argus is still very very easy. This was an optional off night raid, and most of us are around 945-955 ilvl mythic raiders.

[Osmeric]

The reason Blizzard makes small raids harder is to discourage raid groups from kicking out underperforming players. If scaling were perfectly linear then it would almost always make sense to kick the bottom performer.

This sucks for small guilds, though.

[Phookah]

"My group consists of top 20 world raiders and we had trouble clearing 10 man heroic"

this is exactly the point in which no one believed you

[rda]

The reason Blizzard makes small raids harder is to discourage raid groups from kicking out underperforming players. If scaling were perfectly linear then it would almost always make sense to kick the bottom performer.

This sucks for small guilds, though.

Are they really doing this consciously? Might it not be simpler - that they are plain not testing too much / too thoroughly?

[The Cheat]

ITT certain people still conflating sheet item level with what people actually have equipped. 945 on the sheet is not a full set of 945. 935 on the sheet isn't even a full set of 930, which is what normal difficulty drops. If you're undergeared, expect a harder time.

Note that I'm not necessarily discounting the scaling at 10 players. I'm just kinda tired of the item level argument continually cropping up.

[Osmeric]

Are they really doing this consciously? Might it not be simpler - that they are plain not testing too much / too thoroughly?

If it were accidental I'd expect it to more evenly go both ways, but it seems to more often favor the larger group size.

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ITT certain people still conflating sheet item level with what people actually have equipped. 945 on the sheet is not a full set of 945. 935 on the sheet isn't even a full set of 930, which is what normal difficulty drops. If you're undergeared, expect a harder time.

And the nominal, un-forged ilvl isn't 'really' what a raid drops. Those are consolation drops; content has to be balanced around raids accumulating -forged gear.

[Deleted]

Their tuning favors larger teams and has done so for couple of expacs now, I'd have to believe it's intentional because being that incompetent would be... bad? :-)
But yeah, it really sucks for 10man groups. I used to raid 10man HC because it's really awesome format - but got very tired of the constant feeling of being intentionally messed with (with debuffs, damage scaling etc). It sucked and it was no fun.

[ONCHEhap]

i highlighted the important part for you, because you clearly missed the memo regarding what the difficulty requirements vs gear requirements were this tier, trying to do heroic antorus with such a relatively low ilvl and expecting to clear it? come on mate get a grip please.

What the hell? this raid is entierely clearable in hc with 920+ with ease

[Trend]

Hows that an intentional handicap ? The fucking flex raid is ment to be from 10-30 players. 10 man souldnt be insanely, unreasonabley harder than literally any bigger raid size. I mean i could live with a little harder, thats no problem. But its just like the difference between HC and fucking MYTHIC. Its crazy.

BLAH BLAH QQ BLAH BLAH BLAH QQ QQ

#1. Maybe this is even what you're going for, but just in case you don't realize, you come across like a total asshole. You would probably have more productive conversations if you could tone that down a bit.

#2. In my experience, either end of the 10-30 isn't great, but it depends on the fight. Ever do sisters with a 30-man? Yeah it sucks, too many people in too small of a space. Much much easier with fewer people. Anyway, tuning for every size of a flex raid is far from perfect. You are right about that.

[Daan]

But yeah, it really sucks for 10man groups. I used to raid 10man HC because it's really awesome format - but got very tired of the constant feeling of being intentionally messed with (with debuffs, damage scaling etc). It sucked and it was no fun.

Yes, same here. I especially remember some bosses like Il'gynoth, Helya or Mistress where a very small grp had some issues with the bad scaling.

What the hell? this raid is entierely clearable in hc with 920+ with ease

I would like to see that. Every grp who cleared it on heroic with ease was about 940+.

[Halicia]

Their tuning favors larger teams and has done so for couple of expacs now, I'd have to believe it's intentional because being that incompetent would be... bad? :-)
But yeah, it really sucks for 10man groups. I used to raid 10man HC because it's really awesome format - but got very tired of the constant feeling of being intentionally messed with (with debuffs, damage scaling etc). It sucked and it was no fun.

As a healer, I absolutely loathe when they have a fixed ## of dispels going out at the same time that *must* be dispelled and don't adjust in the 10-20 range.

Of course, thats nothing compared to the fixed ## of soaks required to clear last tier on heroic, "bring the player not the class" .... so long as that class has an immunity CD, otherwise you're not clearing this raid with 10man.

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I would like to see that. Every grp who cleared it on heroic with ease the first day/id was about 940+

Yeah, generally raids are balanced under the assumption that the average group can kill the early bosses with the previous difficulty's gear... but a full clear is balanced towards being geared around the current difficulty.

That being said, I don't raid mythic and have had no trouble breaking 950 with two 1000 ilvl legendaries and the artifact weapon skewing things upward.

[razisgosu]

If you're running 3 healers for 10 man, that's your major problem. 1 healer should consistently be able to cover 5 bodies. If you need to bring 3 healers for a 10 man group, your problem is your healers, or your DPS just standing in shit thus requiring extra healing.

Alternatively, why force yourself to a 10 man raid? Why not recruit and run a 15 man raid comp if you find it so much easier? I started out the expansion with a brand new guild with just a couple friends, now we have 25 people showing up to heroic Antorus and even cleared multiple mythic bosses in ToS.