How are DKs still accepted in Horde OR Alliance?

[Tripzzz]

This is kind of blurring the line if it's referencing the hidden Ashbringer skin since that particular chain is not considered canon as far as I know. It's interesting, to be sure, but I wouldn't read to much in to it.

Why wouldn't it be considered canon? The quest directly references previous canon events.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Walking_in_Shadows

[OIS]

If you're striking a deal with the devil, then you are effectively trusting the devil enough to hold his side of the deal. Otherwise what is the point???? Whether the DKs(or the devil) deserve the trust or not is irrelevant. The fact is the pallys trusted the DKs enough to go to Acherus completely outnumbered with their most sacred treasure and expected to return alive.

If you are striking a deal with the devil, it's because you don't have a choice. Who else would the Silver Hand go to, the Cult of the Damned?

All you can do is hope that the ones you're dealing with doesn't screw you over. Tyrosus' gossip text pretty much indicates that. Is this trust? I am really concerned about the relationships you form in your real life

[Tripzzz]

If you are striking a deal with the devil, it's because you don't have a choice. Who else would the Silver Hand go to, the Cult of the Damned?

All you can do is hope that the ones you're dealing with doesn't screw you over. Tyrosus' gossip text pretty much indicates that. Is this trust? I am really concerned about the relationships you form in your real life

How about the priests they saved? You know the priests have access to powerful shadow magic in netherlight temple? The pallys did trust the DKs with the ashbringer. That is fact. Deal with it.

[Tripzzz]

Don't know, it's never revealed. Arguably it seems more the player characters desire to do so and he's assisting. And if that is indeed what it is, look at all that our characters do and how little mention they get in the lore. Which brings up the issue of canonically accurate lore.



I will not discuss this matter any further with you. This is not what trust is.



So because there is established lore of the Ashbringer in the past being corrupted, there can only be one outcome? Or is it likely; like most any other forms of any other Artifacts, it was thrown in for flavor and homage for older lore?

Right now any side forms; outside of the base forms, of artifacts are just that, flavor to keep people happy. Canon is only canon when confirmed by the game or devs.

The players characters get tons of mention in lore. We were the leaders of the entire horde/alliance forces of draenor. We are the leaders of the class halls.


It's almost as if there are various levels of trust....... But go ahead and keep thinking it's just black and white.

The various appearances of the artifacts do not have the same level of dialogue and story as the corrupted ashbringer skin. The quest is canon in game unless stated otherwise.

[AcidicSyn]

Don't know, it's never revealed. Arguably it seems more the player characters desire to do so and he's assisting. And if that is indeed what it is, look at all that our characters do and how little mention they get in the lore. Which brings up the issue of canonically accurate lore.



I will not discuss this matter any further with you. This is not what trust is.



So because there is established lore of the Ashbringer in the past being corrupted, there can only be one outcome? Or is it likely; like most any other forms of any other Artifacts, it was thrown in for flavor and homage for older lore?

Right now any side forms; outside of the base forms, of artifacts are just that, flavor to keep people happy. Canon is only canon when confirmed by the game or devs.

I am choosing to believe that the Woolomancer staff is canon. Deal with THAT! HA!

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Why wouldn't it be considered canon? The quest directly references previous canon events.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Walking_in_Shadows

I have a difficult time trying to believe that the Paladin order would willingly allow the Ashbringer, their most sought and destructive blade against the unholy, to become corrupted once again immediately after you inherit it from Tyrion on his death bed. It makes no sense outside of a fan service "what if" scenario and would likely make it less powerful against demon and the undead since it's no longer infused by the light. It can reference past events but that doesn't automatically imply that it's considered a lore-friendly extension.

It's a fun idea but I don't buy it especially since corrupting it has no impact flavor on, well, anything. Not even Magni acknowledges you for doing it and he's the one who forged it.

[Tripzzz]

I am choosing to believe that the Woolomancer staff is canon. Deal with THAT! HA!

That staff is canon. It belongs to Cote Metcalf. Or are you picking and choosing what is and isn't canon?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Cote_"Shepherd"_Metcalf

[Halwyn]

So you're saying that Blizzard's own statements have dubious canonicity? Who can we trust?

Imagine you're a writer on Blizz's scale - large world, rich lore, etc. You have your heroes, you have your villians, and the whole story you make is a constant "work in progress". And since Blizzard is a company and the popularity of the themes and characters used in an expansion can have an impact on their income, there's some tricks they must do to keep themselves afloat. Keep that whole paragraph in mind.

WotLK: LK Arthas dies. Novel states that Arthas killed both him own humanity and Ner'zhul when he awoke from his slumber. But then you meet that humanity in-game. And then in the final cinematic the "new" Lich King speaks in growely orcish voice, that sounds neither Lich King, Bolvar or Arthas. Also that line about "a part of Arthas' is what holds LK back", hinting NZ is still around, repressed, but that might just be Uther being misinformed or hopeful. One might assume that it's NZ influence, finally unshakled, but there's that. An assumption. After that comes the "NZ is dead" statement that guy constantly refers to.

Why they left those parts in there, if NZ is supposed to be dead? The answer is simple enough: Blizzard leave the opportunity to re-use the Lich King in the future if their buisiness stability is theatened - and NZ is a lot better at being a villian than Bolvar, let's be honest. Kinda what they've done with Illidan in Legion. For now, they leave NZ dead and store him in their pocket. There's also Arthas' statement that NZ is consumed and, but the thing about it: it's Arthas saying that, leaving it's ambigious by itself, if NZ is alive and concealing himself.

Fast forward to the Legion: Bolvar starts to act shady, and with each and every one of his appearances he becomes more and more LK-like. Why? Two plausible reasons:
A) They've decided to pull NZ out of the box again, and to make it not seem like random "Bolvar's evil now lulz". NZ is set free by Arthas' death, still bound to the Helm, like he was all this time, and gradually takes over Bolvar, this time learning from his earlier mistake with Arthas and subjugating him instead of trying to partner with him. Remembering NZ's history, he's highly spiteful towards Legion and it's the reason he has shown interest in fighting them, instead of being dormant all this time the world was about to get f*cked by different threats.
B) Old Gods. With LK actively assistng the war effort against Legion while sowing the seeds of distrust amongst the mortal's ranks (those incidents with Light's Hope and Reds) they're furthering their goals (the world-soul). So, two candidates - Yogg and N'Zoth. The latter could reach LK's mind from Voldrassil, the heavily 'nightmared' zone of Emerald Dream, but the Nightmare is gone and one of the reasons Yogg could influence the unded was saronite, with Arthas' entire stronghold made of it. That leaves Yogg, but he is (supposedly) dead, and the Ulduar where his body is kept is under watch from the titan keepers. So, if his spirit survived the encounter in Ulduar, he shouldn't have that much power to exert over the Lich King.

What I'm trying to say here: the blueposts are fine, and if Bolvar was still dormant in Legion and things were the way of WoD, I'd also preach to the choir of "NZ is dead and gone". But since they're clearly building him into something, starting to act more and more like the actual Lich King would for no apparent reason...
They've left the avenue open, now they use it, especially with the amount of lore reshaping we've got during Legion. It's the good thing about writing an ongoing story: if you leave the things ambigious, then if you change your mind about something you've written, you can fit it right back in.
So, unless they suddenly choose a twist, say... "Yogg's spirit jumped into the Helmet after LK got killed", NZ's influence is the obvious thing happening here.

[Tripzzz]

I have a difficult time trying to believe that the Paladin order would willingly allow the Ashbringer, their most sought and destructive blade against the unholy, to become corrupted once again immediately after you inherit it from Tyrion on his death bed. It makes no sense outside of a fan service "what if" scenario and would likely make it less powerful against demon and the undead since it's no longer infused by the light. It can reference past events but that doesn't automatically imply that it's considered a lore-friendly extension.

It's a fun idea but I don't buy it especially since corrupting it has no impact flavor on, well, anything. Not even Magni acknowledges you for doing it and he's the one who forged it.

They did so on the orders of the highlord. Magni is busy dealing with the world soul and titans. Him not commenting about it isnt proof of anything. Tyrosus maxwell and the four horsemen comment on it. Are the four horsemen and Tyrosus maxwell non canon characters? Thats what you are saying.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And again, no matter how obvious something may be to you, unless retconned in, Ner’zhul is still officially dead and gone.

[AcidicSyn]

That staff is canon. It belongs to Cote Metcalf. Or are you picking and choosing what is and iant canon?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Cote_"Shepherd"_Metcalf

I was making a joke about deciding that the staff the Archmage of the Tirisgarde uses; was the Woolomancer. That canonically, the Archmage decided to chuck Aluneth into a ravine somewhere, and wield Woolomancer instead.

[Tripzzz]

I was making a joke about deciding that the staff the Archmage of the Tirisgarde uses; was the Woolomancer. That canonically, the Archmage decided to chuck Aluneth into a ravine somewhere, and wield Woolomancer instead.

Oh. Lmao. Yeah that is funny.

[Scrysis]

You know that saying, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. . ."

DKs are powerful, terrifying, and keeping an eye on them might give enough forewarning if the LK rises again. And you can counter the deathknights on the other side.

[OIS]

snip

You want it to be true and there's nothing wrong with that. But this is just your interpretation. The Helm of Domination is an evil artifact, why does it need Ner'zhul's spirit to fuck someone up mentally?

Blizzard may want us to speculate, but as far as we know Ner'zhul is dead. He wouldn't be the first one to come back from the dead if he does but right now, he is dead. Under the light of this knowledge, telling someone that he is parroting what Blizzard says because he is stating canonically correct information is a bit absurd. Of course he would parrot what Blizzard says, they made this whole shit up, not us.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

They did so on the orders of the highlord. Magni is busy dealing with the world soul and titans. Him not commenting about it isnt proof of anything. Tyrosus maxwell and the four horsemen comment on it. Are the four horsemen and Tyrosus maxwell non canon characters? Thats wht you are saying.

But why would the Highlord do that? Why would he take a blade which is literally the embodiment of the Light which is the most destructive force against the Unholy and turn it in to darkness? You're essentially nullifying the benefits of the blade against this very specific foe for.... reasons? Furthermore, if it's no longer empowered by the light then why is it still able to turn the unholy in to ash? Wouldn't it not have that effect if it's no longer a weapon of light? There are so many questions which simply can't be answered "because the highlord ordered it".

Also, you're assuming a lot to think that's what I am saying. I nowhere said none of those characters don't exist within lore. What I am saying is that the wrapper which contains the entire corrupted Ashbringer quest and dialogue exchange don't exist within lore. It's a self-contained bubble. There's a huge difference. The long chain itself is an homage to the original tin-foil hat theories which were prevalent in Vanilla in regards to the Ashbringer and the dialogue, while interesting and could easily be canonical, happen in this self-contained bubble which isn't lore-friendly so unless you can show me proof that it is lore then we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

There's just too many questions surrounding it for me to consider it canonical but, as they say, you do you.

[Tripzzz]

But why would the Highlord do that? Why would he take a blade which is literally the embodiment of the Light which is the most destructive force against the Unholy and turn it in to darkness? You're essentially nullifying the benefits of the blade against this very specific foe for.... reasons? Furthermore, if it's no longer empowered by the light then why is it still able to turn the unholy in to ash? Wouldn't it not have that effect if it's no longer a weapon of light? There are so many questions which simply can't be answered "because the highlord ordered it".

Also, you're assuming a lot to think that's what I am saying. I nowhere said none of those characters don't exist within lore. What I am saying is that the wrapper which contains the entire corrupted Ashbringer quest and dialogue exchange don't exist within lore. It's a self-contained bubble. There's a huge difference. The long chain itself is an homage to the original tin-foil hat theories which were prevalent in Vanilla in regards to the Ashbringer and the dialogue, while interesting and could easily be canonical, happen in this self-contained bubble which isn't lore-friendly so unless you can show me proof that it is lore then we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

There's just too many questions surrounding it for me to consider it canonical but, as they say, you do you.

Alot of canon lore doesnt make sense. Doesnt mean it isnt canon. Shadow/void is capable of killing demons aswell. It could be the highlord wanted to wield this power after witnessing the shadow priests of netherlight temple using it to defend the temple against the legion. As for why the demon turn to ash, could be the light comes from the paladin himself and channels through the blade. It could be explained.

The quest being in a bubble that doesnt exist in lore is stated nowhere. The fact that previous canon events are mentioned and built upon in the quest means it is canon.

[Halwyn]

You want it to be true and there's nothing wrong with that. But this is just your interpretation. The Helm of Domination is an evil artifact, why does it need Ner'zhul's spirit to fuck someone up mentally?

Blizzard may want us to speculate, but as far as we know Ner'zhul is dead. He wouldn't be the first one to come back from the dead if he does but right now, he is dead. Under the light of this knowledge, telling someone that he is parroting what Blizzard says because he is stating canonically correct information is a bit absurd. Of course he would parrot what Blizzard says, they made this whole shit up, not us.

I wouldn't mind Helm f*cking someone mentally up. But the Helm's only known purpose, other than granting undead-controlling powers to LK, was meant to be a vessel of NZ's spirit, and if he's gone and it is empty, it'll take some One Ring-esque stuff to pull that trick off on a Paladin of no small stature, and the Helmet is not known for being alive on its own. I can see Bolvar himself being kinda pissed at Red dragons (or dragons in general, if you think of Onyxia) to not condemn an attack on them if he's mentally damaged, but approving an assault on Light's Hope Chapel, just for lulz and being fully aware on how it's gonna end (i.e. "Just go kill some paladins, then rez Mograine after the Light pwnz him. No, you can't just kill him yourself and then rez him, duh."), is something way too one-eighty and eerily resembling of how Arthas did it back in the day. Whether him knowing the end of the assualt is something Bolvar figured out on his own being a former paladin, or NZ's visionary powers at work is up to one's guess, though.

Again, I wouldn't mind this whole deal if we were still in Draenor state of lore, but Legion has turned a lot of things upside-down lore wise, and the fact the Lich King became active again at this point in time is no accident, and I appreciate the buildup that began this expansion for him, instead of randomly "oh, he's back. deal with it.".

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

because FUCK lore ? i mean in Legion alliance and horde became best buddies, going to full length to help each others in situations that won't be blamed for help, no alliance would blame horde to go save Exodar from Legion invasion, yet horde did, or rogues go help the other faction from spying legion agents, yet again they help without problem, and many lore figures of alliance like Broll Mantle or Arator serve under horde champion, and Liadrin and Zentabra under alliance champion
basically everything we did in legion seems to have zero impact on lore, because FUCK U that's why, at least in pandalands when alliance and horde became at war we had 2 expansions of very hostile actions, in cata we were 1 hair away from full war, BFA is just out of developer asses, probably like what they did to Garrosh, the team that was making BFA 'lore' was sleeping and didn't get the memo that we had 2 exp of semi-peace and almost best buddies level in Legion (even in WoD, i don't remember alliance and horde had any aggression outside of Ashran, not in Garrison campaign quests or any quest for that matter)
I feel betrayed by blizz, I liked how legion was going, and I really loved how they built classes, and how dks were like fuck everyone we are the Lich King chosen and attacked paladins, and how paladins and priests were ultimate devote to light etc, then we get an exp of alliance and horde at full war, after we were in state of bff ? Seriously this is the 2nd best time ever between alliance and horde since wc3, even better friendship terms than in vanilla wow, why not a single alliance/horde figure who were best buddies with 'enemy' hero try to even talk about stop the aggression ?
Sorry for rant, but serious answer there is none, the most logical answer - based on experience - that like what they did in MoP, when Alex Afrasiabi said that the reason of Garrosh 'change' was because the team who worked on MoP lore didn't know about Garrosh change in cata (yes, for entire 2 years of working on MoP ppl who are in same department didn't notice what their friends who were literally next to them in SAME room doing, they spent 2 years high on weed or something), so i guess the team who planned BFA spent the entire legion - and maybe even WoD too (don't blame them to skip the worst exp ever) - smoking pot again then decided let's make alliance and horde at war out of our asses, and the sad part that can be actually true

We may have gotten along famously in our order halls between factions, but what was Sylvanas up to? Not chumming it up with any Alliance. What does she say in the cinematic? "We have forgotten what makes us strong." What does she say on live, if you click on her? "We are the Scourge. We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way." What does she say on the PTR? I am not on it, but someone quoted her as saying "All will serve the Horde." So unless they rebel against their Warchief, the Horde champions are going to war. Unless they want to serve the Horde, the Alliance champions are fighting back.

[Tripzzz]

Considering that it's an optional quest I highly doubt it's canon. If that's the case I can present the argument that the Shatter Ashbringer is also canon as it also has story behind it.

The shattered ashbringer being canon makes alot of sense though. The corrupted ashbringer quest was from 7.0. The shattered ashbringer quest is from 7.2. So it became corrupted by will of the highlord first, then was shattered. It makes sense the blade would shatter since the corrupted version was a dark blade being used to channel holy spells. And it also explains why the paladins would keep it in its corrupted form. Those two opposite forces would cause strain on the blade. Making it shatter.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Alot of canon lore doesnt make sense. Doesnt mean it isnt canon. Shadow/void is capable of killing demons aswell. It could be the highlord wanted to wield this power after witnessing the shadow priests of netherlight temple using it to defend the temple against the legion. As for why the demon turn to ash, could be the light comes from the paladin himself and channels through the blade. It could be explained.

The quest being in a bubble that doesnt exist in lore is stated nowhere. The fact that previous canon events are mentioned and built upon in the quest means it is canon.

See, I have a few of points of contention with this.

First, it isn't an argument that x power can kill y monster but that you're literally harnessing the most destructive force against the unholy with the Ashbringer. It's amplified passive power which is super efficient. It's kind of like when you fight the Twin Valkyrs in TotC and you empower yourself with either Light or Dark Essence which allows you to deal extra damage to the opposing alignment. With a Corrupted Ashbringer, the liabilities would far outweigh the benefits since now you're essentially handicapping yourself by losing the inherent ability which makes it so powerful. You can kill a demon with a shovel, eventually.

Second, Paladins had to help Priests defend Netherlight and it wasn't just the destructive power of Shadow which overcame Balnazzar since it was the Priest order hall finale. In fact, I specifically remember that's when the Army of Light showed up with Lothraxion face-tanking Balnazzar while you tickled his belly and Velen did... something (with the light). That's not exactly selling the idea that Shadow Priests inspired the Highlord to corrupt the Ashbringer.

Third, it's called Ashbringer. I'm fairly certain turning the unholy in to ash is caused exclusively by this because of the fact that it's empowered by the light which is why we (pre-Ashbringering) nor anyone else in the Silver Hand have turned enemies to ash by simply cleaving through them. Without the light, it's no longer a hot knife through butter and it would make no sense for this to occur if the blade is extinguished. Why would demons turn to ash from a source of power they're essentially the embodiment of?

Fourth, it is a self-contained bubble which is Blizzard paying homage otherwise how can you explain the fact that we need to go and kill Nefarian and speak to Prince Tortheldrin (which mirrors a fan theory from vanilla to reveal the Ashbringer) in spite of the fact that they've been dead since Cataclysm in BWD and the DMW quest "The Madness Within". It could be argued that he didn't die but then you'd have to convince me why he's alive strictly for an event which is coincidental to one of the original theories of handing him Nefarian's head.

Fifth, just because it's referencing an event which has happened does not make it automatically lore-friendly. You're absolutely right when you say that alot of canon doesn't make sense but were talking a chain which is propped up by paying homage to truly ridiculous, outdated theories. If the dialogue between Tyrosus and Darion is considered canon then we also have to accept that, among other things, Nefarian was still alive in Blackwing Lair during Legion since we need go get his head and the two books to bring to Sister Elda.

Sixth, something in my brain is yelling at me that during an appearance panel they claimed the hidden artifact skins are "what if" scenarios which is why I clung to that term but for the life of me I can't find anything other than reddit comments stating the same so I'll not use that as fact. All I can find is that they're created as a "re-imagined fantasy" and expression of your character without any mention of lore.

The interaction between Tyrosus, Darion and the corruption of Ashbringer just doesn't happen as official canon and I feel as though I've explained why reasonably well with hard facts rather than ambiguous claims. It makes sense that Tyrosus and Darion would be at each other's throat and they took advantage of it without throwing too man monkeys in to a barrel but in the grand scheme of things it's a self-contained event propped up by the misery of those who tried to find Ashbringer in vanilla with an interesting payoff.

What if I could corrupt the Ashbringer?

- - - Updated - - -

The shattered ashbringer being canon makes alot of sense though. The corrupted ashbringer quest was from 7.0. The shattered ashbringer quest is from 7.2. So it became corrupted by will of the highlord first, then was shattered. It makes sense the blade would shatter since the corrupted version was a dark blade being used to channel holy spells. And it also explains why the paladins would keep it in its corrupted form. Those two opposite forces would cause strain on the blade. Making it shatter.

If we or it shattered because it was corrupted then why does it look like the original light-empowered version? You do know it took a ton of holy light to look like that, right?

Fairbanks casts Heal on the crystal, then Tirion, Abbendis and Isillien join in with holy spells, the four casting repeatedly.
The Dark Crystal turns into a Light Crystal.

It's not like it can just go from one to the other without an incredibly strong influence.