[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[WskyDK]

Watched this Sunday with the wife.

What an absolute dogshit film. The pacing was terrible, space mary-poppins actually made me cringe, the (real) codebreaker feels like their part was cut, character advancement was mediocre at best (for two of them, none foe anyone else), Kylo Rem is as whiney and cringey as ever.

I do believe this was the final Main/current-time Star Wars film I'll bother watching.

[Sunseeker]

To me, this movie strips away a lot of the mystique around Star Wars. Prior to this movie, it was cool to see the continuity and the story of the Skywalkers - that Vader was Luke's father, that Kylo was Leia's son, etc. And it was appealing to speculate about Rey's parentage as a way of continuing that sense of a connected story - I had hoped that she was the daughter of Palpatine. Of course, this hope was stoked on by the first movie which teased Rey's parentage.

Just being like, "Whatever, she's born from nothing" is super lame. Same thing with Snoke - he's just like a dude? What? What's the story with his scars and all that crap?

In stripping away all remnants of the previous generation they made me feel less invested because they cut off a lot of interesting storylines tied back to the old saga. It seems like they aren't interested in that and just want to make their own thing, which worries me because that means that it's not Star Wars anymore. It's just kinda "generic disney with lightsabers".

Ya'll do realize that there is a 3rd movie right?

And that Kylo could be, oh, I dunno, lying?

[Logwyn]

I don't see it. I see a girl who's been successful at everything she did and hasn't failed even once. If you don't count trying to convert darth bitch. She had no learning pains with the lightsaber, no loss's in combat to date, can lift a mountain of boulders easier than yoda can lift an X wing. Doesn't need to be told how to run. Has no qualms essentially solo jet-packing into the enemy area.

If you're gonna have a mary/gary sue in your story who's good at everything fine. Do it from the beginning. That's not how star wars began though. Having one thrown in midway through the story is awful. It ruins the story. Even the more famous Gary Sue Neo in the matrix spent basically the whole first movie figuring shit out after getting his ass kicked repeatedly and having no ability whatsoever until the end.

That's my problem with it. Deciding in the 7th and 8th movies that your character is going to be stronger than the literal force jesus that was born from the force. Are you fucking kidding me?

Sounds like someone is just mad that the Hero isn't a deadpool, spawn, or angsty death knight type character. Its time for the White knight to shine again and stop with the grey knight or black knight hero just because he isn't totally evil sthick that is the rage now a days.

- - - Updated - - -

Ya'll do realize that there is a 3rd movie right?

And that Kylo could be, oh, I dunno, lying?

There are a large number of people that can't see that for whatever reason. I'm not sure why either. I think there is a lot of under lining things going on that a second viewing would be needed to see.

I find it odd that things that people point out in this set of movies they just hand wave away for 4, 5, 6 that weren't answered until 1,2,3 showed it.

[eschatological]

So, there's been 70 pages in this thread since the movie premiered on Thursday night. I'm not going to try and read it, but this is what I'll say, and I think it parrots some of the more reasonable critiques: This is a great movie, but, at best, a good Star Wars movie. I'm open to the idea of Rian Johnson re-interpreting what it means to be "a Star Wars movie," but I have a feeling JJ will just go back to the old formula in IX and that'll be it, and we'll have this weird episode where someone tried to make Star Wars into an actual film worthy of award and recognition (and did a reasonable job at it).

As a film, this is an excellent movie about an older generation futilely trying to protect and nurture their figurative children, and inevitably failing them, while the children themselves learns to be their own true selves. A great, wonderful theme that I would never truly expect to be explored at any depth in a Star Wars film. Negating the importance of legend, of "belonging to the story," of having a role to play besides the role you yourself define - that's postmodernism to a tee.

But that has never been Star Wars. Star Wars has been typically a movie about grand archetypes and larger moving arcs. So with that, I'll go into a few critiques as I saw them as to why it's not very Star Wars-y, and why they are pros as a "film" so to speak:

Cons:
1) Rey's parentage being literally nothing - excellent in that it subverts the idea of destiny, jarring in that Star Wars has always been about destiny.
2) Snoke snuffing it by underestimating his apprentice's rise to power - excellent in that it subverts the idea of true knowledge of other, because the future he sees is entirely correct, but not what he anticipates at all. Luke reiterates this theme twice when he says, "Everything you said in that sentence is wrong." It defies what we traditionally know of Star Wars.........yet............both those sentences Luke says come to pass - at the end, he is destroyed, and Rey is off lifting rocks. Luke tries to subvert the narrative, but in the end, the Force snaps back into the Grand Design mode.
3) The subversion of the plucky rebellion always getting away with a hare-brained scheme. LITERALLY AN ENTIRE ARC OF THIS MOVIE TURNS OUT TO BE COMPLETELY FUTILE. Some may see that as hilariously bad - but again, it can be seen as a brilliant riposte against individualistic, anarchic action, and a defense of the common good.
4) The subversion of love. Rose's saving of Finn in essence nearly destroys the entire Rebellion, whereas Finn's thwarted sacrifice would have been entirely in line with Star Wars ideations.
5) Every. single. character. has huge, gaping flaws which prevent them from doing anything meaningful. Again, could be seen as a disaster by the audience, but again, I think it's somewhat brilliant.

Of course, the problem is, they didn't commit to the complete subversion. To me, this movie is only complete if Rey turns to the Dark Side. I'm not all about that Rey-Kylo shipping, she should have joined him with the secret intent of saving him, end up killing him, and then bathing in the newfound power of her being "unbalanced" by the death of Kylo. They instead took the easy way out, which is disappointing. Maybe they're saving it for IX, but that's a big ask at this point. I liked the themes of the movie that the first one was about Han, this one was about Luke, and the third was supposed to be about Leia. Carrie Fischer's death will be a blow to the strong themes they were building. In a way, that "snap back" to the Grand Design speaks to the Force as something un-subvertible. My immediate guess is that IX will be about these characters trying to change the narrative, and failing. Much like the Matrix movies, this is following a pretty clear thesis->antithesis->synthesis model, except the thesis is switched. In the Matrix, the thesis is the liberating power of free will, the antithesis is about the slavery of destiny, the synthesis is about the choice we make in facing the inevitable. Here, we see the archetypal hero-of-destiny story as the thesis, this movie's antithesis talks about the despair of being "unchained from our centre", and the overwhelming burden of being one's own self, and the synthesis will have to address that.

Pros:
1) The nostalgia plays were less gimmicky. I loved seeing the original ANH hologram, and it evoked the same feeling Luke has - "That's a cheap shot."
2) Literally beautiful. Quite possibly the most beautiful Star Wars film to date.
3) Well shot, well directed, well acted. I'd also argue well written, but I suppose that depends on whether you agree that the movie was trying to subvert the universe like I stated above, or not.
4) I like the idea of the Force not being owned by anyone. I like the nod to the kid on the casino planet as being Force-sensitive, recognizing the Force will work how it wants to work.
5) The new powers are okay-to-good. The problem with new powers is that they're not supposed to be new, so to speak, other Jedi should have had access to them prior and we are led to then conclude they never used them, which is silly. The simple hand-wave is that Luke, Leia, Snoke, Rey, and Kylo all have power levels over 9000 that no one before, even Yoda, have achieved.

All in all, this is a great movie I thoroughly enjoyed, but I can understand how people feel it doesn't fit in the Star Wars anthology. Quite frankly, it doesn't. It seeks to redefine it.

[Sunseeker]

There are a large number of people that can't see that for whatever reason. I'm not sure why either. I think there is a lot of under lining things going on that a second viewing would be needed to see.

I find it odd that things that people point out in this set of movies they just hand wave away for 4, 5, 6 that weren't answered until 1,2,3 showed it.

I find it annoying that people seem to both want Disney to create something new and original and then when they do they bitch about how it's not enough like the old stuff.

[PACOX]

I find it annoying that people seem to both want Disney to create something new and original and then when they do they bitch about how it's not enough like the old stuff.

A lot of people are saying they like Rogue One because it was original but I remember that thread being exactly like this one.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except the extremely different point where the blade instead of being 50% of the weight of the sword/blade weighs nothing and can cut through 99% of the shit you run into.

Also let someone WHO HAS ONLY VAGUELY HEARD OF THE FORCE literally mind control someone...

You see in TlJ that she does the same movies she does with her staff but with the saber. She isn’t use to the different and goes to far and cuts the rock she was using in train. She using the saber the same way she had used her staff before though less refined.

And the force is stupid they can make any one do any thing and just say the force did it, stars wars had always been like that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Fighting with different weapons is extremely different. Good with one doesn't mean good with all.

She using the same fighting style with the saber as she does with her staff as you can see in TLJ she’s not a master with the saber but she’s good enouth that she can beat off a wounded kylo who isn’t trying to kill her and as snoke says has been split to his very core by killing ham.

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of people are saying they like Rogue One because it was original but I remember that thread being exactly like this one.

To be fair rouge one was really really bad.

[Nefarious Tea]

To be fair rouge one was really really bad.

It amuses me that you don't see the irony in constantly arguing with people who say TLJ is bad, and then turn around and immediately call Rogue One terrible.

[Fayolynn]

Yeah, the edge lords love to hate on Star Wars. Real fans can find something to enjoy in every movie they released.

Are you allowed to be a real fan while at the same time pointing out bad story telling elements? Like if you enjoyed some parts but not all are you a real fan or fake fan?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It amuses me that you don't see the irony in constantly arguing with people who say TLJ is bad, and then turn around and immediately call Rogue One terrible.

Can you find a single post I’ve made that I said TLJ was a good movie? Sure I like it but that doesn’t make it a good movie as I like a lot of bad movies. All of my post have been about events in the movie not the movie over all. There is no irony to see as me calling rouge one bad has no baring on any of my post about TLW or TFA.

[Deleted]

Well at least it was a better movie than the last one (TFA)...

I kind of like how they de-mysticised the Skywalkers. I always disliked the trope of "you were born for greatness" the series gave off.

I dislike what they have done with Snoke... at least they could have explained his past better. I didn't mind the end he met, but how he was written off without explaination of his character. Albeit he was very powerfull with the darkside (knocking Kylo away like a little b**** at the start of the movie) he went out like a complete bluff who simply overstated his hand.

[PACOX]

Are you allowed to be a real fan while at the same time pointing out bad story telling elements? Like if you enjoyed some parts but not all are you a real fan or fake fan?

I don't know about Vegas but I was commenting on people who dismiss the entire movie.

I personally liked the movie and tell you stuff that I didn't like.

Leia in space.

Yoda being able to light stuff on fire (though I think there is an explanation for it)

I think the entire casino planet plot was poorly thought out from Maz telling them out the code breaker, to the ridiculous case, to DJ being there and being a mole (well I don't really know what he was.

Why even have Ackbar in the movie if they kill him off like that? They could have easily replaced Holdo with Ackbar.

Phasma, either actually do something with her or don't use her at all (she'll probably be back, she survived worse)

The "execution" scene with Finn and Rose was bad. The First Order has been portrayed as just as arrogant as the Empire but more ruthless and quicker to act...why were to stalling the execution? The writers wrote themselves into a corner with that.

Poe got let off easy. Not only did he get a bunch of people killed, he then stages a mutiny...he gets a slap on the wrist...

No reason for Leia to have lived through the movie when they have several times where they could've given her a proper send off. No she is mostly likely going to written off in title crawl of 9.

They should've addressed the aftermath of the Starkiller attack (not sure if it happened in a book), just a log of dialogue would've been enough. Something such as the people have submitted to the First Order, the First Order took the fight out of everyone...something. Anything.

Those remenant of the Resistance looked a little too happy at the end for them to be down to ~20 people crammed into the Falcon.

We the Knights of Ren retconned?

[Sunseeker]

I don't know about Vegas but I was commenting on people who dismiss the entire movie.

Leia in space.

Woulda made a really great sendoff, right there, or even while she was comatose after. Still the stuff with Leia in it after was good.

Yoda being able to light stuff on fire (though I think there is an explanation for it).

It's one of those hand-wavy "the force" thingies. Compared to a lot of the crap that doesn't make sense in the Star Wars universe...a powerful force ghost summoning lightning and making fire spread real fast? Not that far out there.

I think the entire casino planet plot was poorly thought out from Maz telling them out the code breaker, to the ridiculous case, to DJ being there and being a mole (well I don't really know what he was.

Yep...coulda skipped that whole part of the movie. It's kinda a setup for the force-kid at the end I guess? There were better ways to set that up.

Why even have Ackbar in the movie if they kill him off like that? They could have easily replaced Holdo with Ackbar.

Honestly if you just take the movies themselves, Ackbar is a rather minor character. He's famous mostly from memes. If it wasn't for "It's a trap!" I doubt anyone would give a shit about him.

Phasma, either actually do something with her or don't use her at all (she'll probably be back, she survived worse)

Yeah I don't know what the fuck is up with the writing on Phasma. Like, I get that Hux is a BFD and Kylo is a BFD and Snoke is the Master Manipulator but I mean we coulda done....something with Phasma. At this point she's kinda the Boba Fett of the new trilogy, stupidly popular for...really no reason.

The "execution" scene with Finn and Rose was bad. The First Order has been portrayed as just as arrogant as the Empire but more ruthless and quicker to act...why were to stalling the execution? The writers wrote themselves into a corner with that.

I think there was a clear line of reasoning that the First Order has grown considerably more arrogant than they were before. All their "winning" has gone to their head. But this was also a fairly minor point within the movies. "Good guys get captured, almost killed, oh no!"

They should've addressed the aftermath of the Starkiller attack (not sure if it happened in a book), just a log of dialogue would've been enough. Something such as the people have submitted to the First Order, the First Order took the fight out of everyone...something. Anything.

They did, sorta...in the first block of scroll-text.

We the Knights of Ren retconned?

Yeah I was kinda wondering that myself. I mean I don't know if they're just off around the Galaxy doing...something but it'd be nice if they were addressed like...at all. Coulda been used in place of those silly red body guards, or implied that those are the Knights of Ren...or something.

Personally my biggest gripe with the movie was just that they "split the party" and thus, split the focus of the movie, not just once, but FOUR times. (Poe on the resistance ships, Finn & Rose on the casino planet, Rey on Jedi island, Kylo doing...his thing.) It's not that you can't write a movie that way, it's just hard. Which is why few movies and books do it. Even Tolkein, who is arguably the king of "splitting the party" didn't do a real good job of it, yeah LOTR is a great story but christ it jumps around a lot.

[Nefarious Tea]

Yeah I was kinda wondering that myself. I mean I don't know if they're just off around the Galaxy doing...something but it'd be nice if they were addressed like...at all. Coulda been used in place of those silly red body guards, or implied that those are the Knights of Ren...or something.

I can't help but wonder if Kylo killed the rest of them. Taking out the competition, as it were.

[Deleted]

Yes and yes. That's why Leia built the Resistance, because the Republic fell into "we are not going to be the Empire again" anti-militarism plus corruption.

I get it, but I don't like it. It all seems like vague excuses to go back to good guys being rebels and bad guys being oppressive regime rather than allowing the universe to exists and progress in a way that's logical. It just doesn't feel believable to me personally.

[FeedsOnDevTears]

1. The Last Jedi
2. Empires Strikes Back
3. A New Hope
4. Rebels (at its best)
5. Return of the Jedi
7. Rogue One
6. Clone Wars (at its best)
7. The Phantom Menace
8. Clone Wars and Rebels (at their worst)
9. The Holiday Special

20. Attack of the Clones
50. Revenge of the Sith

[PACOX]

I get it, but I don't like it. It all seems like vague excuses to go back to good guys being rebels and bad guys being oppressive regime rather than allowing the universe to exists and progress in a way that's logical. It just doesn't feel believable to me personally.

Its not like the Republic was so good, though.

The reason why Sidious was able to execute his plan because played on insecurities people already had about the Republic. Its heavily favored the core worlds, smaller/further systems had no voice, systems weren't part of the core worlds but could stand on their own two feet were being hindered by the Republic. The Republic was supposed to be Democratic, but not really because it only favored the core worlds. It was inefficient, it was a mess, like any empire that grows too large. During the Clone Wars, the CIS really wasn't the "bad guys" (except for being strung along by the Sith, same can be said for the Republic though), they wanted independence from a government they felt no longer met their needs.

But what does the galaxy do as soon as it gets rid of the Empire? Go right back to the BS system that provided the fuel for the Clone Wars, which led to the creation of the Empire, right back to square one. And Kylo has the idea as Vader, fuck it, burn everything down until people stop fighting.

[Deleted]

Its not like the Republic was so good, though.

The reason why Sidious was able to execute his plan because played on insecurities people already had about the Republic. Its heavily favored the core worlds, smaller/further systems had no voice, systems weren't part of the core worlds but could stand on their own two feet were being hindered by the Republic. The Republic was supposed to be Democratic, but not really because it only favored the core worlds. It was inefficient, it was a mess, like any empire that grows too large. During the Clone Wars, the CIS really wasn't the "bad guys" (except for being strung along by the Sith, same can be said for the Republic though), they wanted independence from a government they felt no longer met their needs.

But what does the galaxy do as soon as it gets rid of the Empire? Go right back to the BS system that provided the fuel for the Clone Wars, which led to the creation of the Empire, right back to square one. And Kylo has the idea as Vader, fuck it, burn everything down until people stop fighting.

This is pretty much why the underlying story of the prequels is far superior to all other SW movies. They dared to explore the flaws of democracy and the flaws of the Jedi. When I was a kid Phantom Menace was about pod racing and sword battles with Maul, as an adult that whole movie is about how Sidious stages an attack on his own planet to increase his own power. The story about Sidious in the background of all prequels is so compelling. Too bad the movies were executed so extremely poorly that they turned to shit.

And I understand that there are arguments to be made for why the setting is how it is in the new trilogy, but it's still obvious that's not WHY the setting is how it is. It's pretty much obvious that when they were coming up with the story they said to themselves "Right, we have to go back to rebels vs oppressive regime. Let's not even think about how or why that happens, all the fans want are rebels so just give it to them"

[Deleted]

I get it, but I don't like it. It all seems like vague excuses to go back to good guys being rebels and bad guys being oppressive regime rather than allowing the universe to exists and progress in a way that's logical. It just doesn't feel believable to me personally.

But the Star Wars Republic was never the "good guys". Yes, there are plently ideological good guys around that formed the Rebel Alliance, but the rest are the exact same ones that cheered the creation of the Empire in RotS. The Populists (the old Separatists) versus Centralists conflict reappeared without the heavy fist of the Empire.

And, of course, it leads to corrupted Senators again. Look to our history and how cyclical corruption is.

- - - Updated - - -

This is pretty much why the underlying story of the prequels is far superior to all other SW movies. They dared to explore the flaws of democracy and the flaws of the Jedi. When I was a kid Phantom Menace was about pod racing and sword battles with Maul, as an adult that whole movie is about how Sidious stages an attack on his own planet to increase his own power. The story about Sidious in the background of all prequels is so compelling. Too bad the movies were executed so extremely poorly that they turned to shit.

That's also my love-hate attitude with the prequels. The grand story behind the three movies was masterly played, of how Palpatine turned the Republic into the Empire. Now the execution of the rest of the plot...

And I understand that there are arguments to be made for why the setting is how it is in the new trilogy, but it's still obvious that's not WHY the setting is how it is. It's pretty much obvious that when they were coming up with the story they said to themselves "Right, we have to go back to rebels vs oppressive regime. Let's not even think about how or why that happens, all the fans want are rebels so just give it to them"

It isn't "rebels vs. oppressive regime" yet. In TFA was a militarist faction against a weak Republic, now in TLJ was a militarist faction against the survivors of the broken Republic. We have yet to see the First Order to establish control over the entire galaxy, right now they only got military dominance.