[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Aurrora]

2> Luke says he trained Leia a bit. Leia's as strong in the Force as Luke is (twins, and all). Literally all you're seeing there is a simple Force Pull; rather than pulling the ship to her, the mass differential means she gets pulled to the ship. Maybe some more Force use to survive vacuum a little longer, but nothing particularly complex.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Leia using the Force, it's just that scene was visually awful. One of the first threads I saw on a Star Wars forum after coming home from the theater on opening night was "Superleia." The whole scene could have been accomplished better by having Leia "catch" the torpedoes with the force as Kylo does with the blaster bolt in TFA, only the have them detonate at a close range that still leaves most of the bridge dead, and Leia concussed/comatose but not vented into space.

Also, to echo Han Solo that's not how the Force works. If relative mass is a factor then "size does not matter not." Yoda would have been crushed under the weight of lifting an X-Wing. Jedi using the force to suspend things off the side of a platform as I believe we've seen a couple times over the course of Rebels and The Clone Wars would be catapulted into the air. Dooku would have been pulled into the rafters in AotC instead of causing the supports to fall on Obi-Wan and Anakin. If such an application of the Force were possible we'd see Jedi flying around instead of using Force assisted jumps.

Hmm... maybe the first film of Johnson's trilogy will be Crouching Jedi, Hidden Sith, Disney definitely wants in on that Chinese market.

[shaunika123]

I think you just want to hate the movie, which is fine of course

I don't hate it though

there were quite a few things I liked about it.

I liked the kylo ren rey stuff, I liked the luke stuff, I liked the visuals (the ending fight with the red salt was gorgeous, and so was the light speed shattering the fleet) the performances are good (especially adam driver)

but the story was an unfocused mess, if they focused 70-80% of the movie on the kylo ren rey dynamics and their character development instead of 75 million subplots, none of which go anywhere, It wouldve been a much much stronger movie. I guess that's why I'm a bit upset. because it had potential.

I hate to go there, but just compare it to the empire strikes back. that movie has basically two plotlines luke learning to become a jedi and then failing because he's too rash, and hansolo/leia trusting a friend and getting betrayed. and those two plotlines converge to the same climax. that's it, that's all it is, and it's a perfect movie. compare that to this and it's all over the fucking place, the three main characters share like what? 5 minutes of total screentime, they dont really develop especially not as a team, poe doesn't even meet rey till the end of the second movie. every single character (even the minor ones) has their own subplot that doesnt really connect to the others and goes nowhere. instead of focusing on the main story. the movie is called "the last Jedi" and that takes up about 20% of the movie.

like, why did we even need rose? why couldnt poe and finn leave together and develop together as characters? they have chemistry, the scenes with them together are good, so why not? why do we need 50 new characters for roles that could be easily put upon characters we already have. You know what did that? the prequels, if you muddle all the characters because you introduce too many and don't focus on any of them, you won't have anyone the audience cares about.

as to the whole "hate" thing people can be so binary about things.

"if you doN't love it you hate it", no I legitimetly criticize it for the myriad of flaws it has, especially since so many of them are so glaring.

there are like 2 movies in the entire history of cinema I can truly admit to hating, and those are the last airbender and dragonball evolution.

I don't hate TLJ, nor do I love it, I think it's an okay film, but I think I have the right to objectively criticise everything that's wrong with it.

[Aurrora]

Except, you know, for the entire chain of command and the fact that she was a war hero?

Pretty sure actual military personnel have come out and said that's not how the chain of command works, something about Commander's Intent. The way Holdo is presented to us in the film we're definitely meant to be taking Poe's side in their argument. Poe wants to know that there is A plan, and all she comes up with is "hope." For all Poe knows his plan is the "hope" she was depending on.

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Well we were talking about the need for a backstory for Snoke, but if you want to move onto this, sure, let's do that...

Go watch Indiana Jones, the first one, and then realize that if Indy did absolutely nothing the outcome would have been the same or maybe better than the conclusion of the film.

But sometimes the point of the movie is more than just plot moving forward and also about developing characters or messages.

Without Indy the Nazis would have been along to collect the Ark after the initial batch get melted trying to mess around with it, and they'd probably eventually figure out a way to weaponize it. With Indy at least it gets taken into US custody and filed away in a warehouse of "Let's just forget about this" stuff.

[eschatological]

Without Indy the Nazis would have been along to collect the Ark after the initial batch get melted trying to mess around with it, and they'd probably eventually figure out a way to weaponize it. With Indy at least it gets taken into US custody and filed away in a warehouse of "Let's just forget about this" stuff.

The "better" outcome would be for it to be abandoned on some random island after disintegrating all the Nazis, and not having it in the possession of the U.S.

[shaunika123]

The "better" outcome would be for it to be abandoned on some random island after disintegrating all the Nazis, and not having it in the possession of the U.S.

yeah because noone would ever find it on an island just out in the open right?

I mean the CIA was onto them indy or not, so presumably other intelligence agencies were too.

[Endus]

Pretty sure actual military personnel have come out and said that's not how the chain of command works, something about Commander's Intent. The way Holdo is presented to us in the film we're definitely meant to be taking Poe's side in their argument. Poe wants to know that there is A plan, and all she comes up with is "hope." For all Poe knows his plan is the "hope" she was depending on.

There's also the concept of "need to know". Poe's not a major officer. And he'd just gotten demoted for a stupid-ass decision he'd made, which throws his judgement into question. They knew the First Order fleet was tracking them, somehow. That might be through treachery, and letting everyone know the plan would have resulted in the collapse of any hope. In fact, that's exactly what happened, due to Poe's interference. She was right to not tell Poe anything, and if Poe had just sat on his hands and waited, the Resistance would quite likely have made it to their base with minimal further losses (the cruiser and whoever was left to pilot it as they escaped, basically).

It was Poe's plan to disable their tracker that brought in a third party agent who betrayed the cloaked transports to the First Order. Poe's mutiny is directly responsible for the deaths of everyone on the transports the First Order destroyed. All because he couldn't trust that his commanders actually had a plan, just because he wasn't party to it.

And of course he wasn't, because he'd already colossally fucked up by that point. And it was a secret plan. Betrayal put it at immense risk, as we directly saw.

[shaunika123]

There's also the concept of "need to know". Poe's not a major officer. And he'd just gotten demoted for a stupid-ass decision he'd made, which throws his judgement into question. They knew the First Order fleet was tracking them, somehow. That might be through treachery, and letting everyone know the plan would have resulted in the collapse of any hope. In fact, that's exactly what happened, due to Poe's interference. She was right to not tell Poe anything, and if Poe had just sat on his hands and waited, the Resistance would quite likely have made it to their base with minimal further losses (the cruiser and whoever was left to pilot it as they escaped, basically).

It was Poe's plan to disable their tracker that brought in a third party agent who betrayed the cloaked transports to the First Order. Poe's mutiny is directly responsible for the deaths of everyone on the transports the First Order destroyed. All because he couldn't trust that his commanders actually had a plan, just because he wasn't party to it.

And of course he wasn't, because he'd already colossally fucked up by that point. And it was a secret plan. Betrayal put it at immense risk, as we directly saw.

yeah, but why couldnt she say "yeah, don't worry we have a definite plan, and we're sure it will work, but i can't tell you because you're an irresponsible asshole so go back to your post" instead of being all vague and cryptic about it.

[Aurrora]

There's also the concept of "need to know". Poe's not a major officer. And he'd just gotten demoted for a stupid-ass decision he'd made, which throws his judgement into question. They knew the First Order fleet was tracking them, somehow. That might be through treachery, and letting everyone know the plan would have resulted in the collapse of any hope. In fact, that's exactly what happened, due to Poe's interference. She was right to not tell Poe anything, and if Poe had just sat on his hands and waited, the Resistance would quite likely have made it to their base with minimal further losses (the cruiser and whoever was left to pilot it as they escaped, basically).

It was Poe's plan to disable their tracker that brought in a third party agent who betrayed the cloaked transports to the First Order. Poe's mutiny is directly responsible for the deaths of everyone on the transports the First Order destroyed. All because he couldn't trust that his commanders actually had a plan, just because he wasn't party to it.

And of course he wasn't, because he'd already colossally fucked up by that point. And it was a secret plan. Betrayal put it at immense risk, as we directly saw.

How does letting everyone know that there's a plan(A plan mind you, not what it is) collapse everyone's hope? People were already deserting, morale was terrible, and the leader of the Resistance is giving platitudes about hope rather than assuring them that she has a course of action. Poe was correct in the actions he took given how Holdo was acting. If they were being secretive because of suspected treachery 1) that should have been a plot thread and 2) the traitor would have informed the First Order when they launched the transports anyways, so being secretive about it wouldn't have helped.

And while we're on the topic of Poe's demotion, I'm not sure we can even say he made the wrong decision in not calling off the attack on the dreadnaught. It isn't clear if the fleet would have been able to jump to lightspeed before it got off a second shot. You can also add that in hindsight had they not destroyed the dreadnaught prior to making the jump it would have been present to destroy them in the pursuit, rather than letting the Resistance flee slowly move out of range of the Supremacy's weapons.

The biggest problem with all of this is that Poe is one of the new trilogy's protagonists, so despite his actions getting the majority of the Resistance forces killed we're unlikely to see him suffer the repercussions that should reasonably come as a result. Leia is still obviously grooming Poe for a leadership position at the end of the film when she acts bewildered as to why the remaining Resistance are waiting for her orders instead of following Dameron when he comes up with the escape plan.

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1. weaponized lightspeed
If the alliance knew this would work, they should have used this tons of times in older movies. And honestly if you have lightspeed available, you probably tested this as a weapon first before it makes it (the tech) into spaceships for propulsion. Also this tactic should have been used by the ships that get destroyed earlier in the movie.

Headcannon: I figure The Supremacy might be the only ship in the sweet spot of sizes for this to be a viable tactic, with regular sized Star Destroyers you have to be too precise, and a craft as large as the Death Star probably wouldn't have taken as much damage. Hyperspace is another dimension so merely pointing your ship towards the enemy isn't enough, you'd need to calculate the jump point as being inside the other ship.

[Donair]

It's like Disney made a competition for the worst script. Seriously I have never seen such boring concepts in Sci-Fi/Fantasy movies.

Easily the worst movie in the franchise, which is a pretty good achievement considering how bad tfa was.

It is clear that Disney are moving the franchise away from its traditional audience and towards a new, younger target group. It's easy for me and people of my era to be bitter and disappointed, as we grew up with Star Wars and it was a big part of our lives and so it hurts when a company takes it in a direction we cannot follow.

I understand Disney's reasoning, that want the franchise to last another generation of movie goers, but I'm sceptical that with the rubbish they are spitting out the rivers of gold will soon dry up.

Can we... can we elaborate some here gentlemen? Something more specific than "worst movie" "worst script" "boring." Have you even seen the prequels?

Worst script is a very very strong statement considering we have lines from other movies in this series like "You under-estimate my POWER!" and "My heart is beating, hoping that kiss doesn't become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me." We can point to the 50 Shades and Twilight series for superior writing to the prequels. It's really no contest here guys.

The writing and acting in TFA and TLJ is MILES beyond any of the amateur cringey shit in the prequels.

Let's just be honest here. If your nonsensical fan theories didn't come true, just come out with that! It's a fair reason to be disappointed with TLJ. And all of us here collectively would support and comfort you.

But if you're just going into a slobbering rage over it and throwing out accusations of "shitty plot holes!" "worst script of all time!" "worst movie of all time!" "RIP Star Wars, FUUUUUU Disney!" we're gonna have a difficult time carrying on an intelligent adult conversation.

[Dormie]

At least the prequels were trying. The new movies are just pandering.

[Shadowferal]

Can we... can we elaborate some here gentlemen? Something more specific than "worst movie" "worst script" "boring." Have you even seen the prequels?

After this craptacular movie, the prequels are beginning to smell a little less...bad.
At least the prequels "felt" at times like it was Star Wars.

I guess the better question is WTF is so great about this crappy movie?

[shaunika123]

Can we... can we elaborate some here gentlemen? Something more specific than "worst movie" "worst script" "boring." Have you even seen the prequels?

Worst script is a very very strong statement considering we have lines from other movies in this series like "You under-estimate my POWER!" and "My heart is beating, hoping that kiss doesn't become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me." We can point to the 50 Shades and Twilight series for superior writing to the prequels. It's really no contest here guys.

The writing and acting in TFA and TLJ is MILES beyond any of the amateur cringey shit in the prequels.

Let's just be honest here. If your nonsensical fan theories didn't come true, just come out with that! It's a fair reason to be disappointed with TLJ. And all of us here collectively would support and comfort you.

But if you're just going into a slobbering rage over it and throwing out accusations of "shitty plot holes!" "worst script of all time!" "worst movie of all time!" "RIP Star Wars, FUUUUUU Disney!" we're gonna have a difficult time carrying on an intelligent adult conversation.

calling it the worst script ever is hyperbole, but he's not far off. and it's not the dialogue part of the script, that's okay.
the problem is the structure, the structure is a huge mess.

the entire movie is basically nothing but subplots, andn one of them go anywhere, or get resolved. which would be fine (since nothing was really resolved at the end of empire either) but the characters dotn get developed either, because they get lost in the sea of 25 million other new characters. finn and poe and rey are the three main characters, and the movie just doesnt focus on them, their chemistry, and their development as a team. at all.

this movie needed two big things, 1. waaay more development of the kylo ren/rey dynamic, going much more deeply into their connection, how they need each other. and 2. finn and poe actually working together, why did we need rose? just have finn and poe go off in a rogue adventure without the rebellion's knowledge, and then try to save the day. and when they fail, it needs to have an impact on their characters, Poe is single handedly responsible for killing like 70% of the rebellion and yet he doesnt show remorse, or regret at all, nor does anyone really call him out on it.

[Fayolynn]

How is letting the galaxy fall and other ginger jedi’s Trying to flee the empire get slaughtered prudent or having hope? And what does that hope do? It didn’t help the 10000’s of people who were killed while yoda was sitting in a swamp or obiwan was farming dirt.

They didn't let the Galaxy fall, they did what they could to stop Sidious from taking over but failed. It was prudent because if they went up against the Empire they were dead. Instead they bided thier time and kept a watch on the Skywalker twins. Those 10000s were dead regardless of what Obi-wan and Yoda did, they would have just added their corpses to the pile and then no one would have been around to train Luke.

[Endus]

yeah, but why couldnt she say "yeah, don't worry we have a definite plan, and we're sure it will work, but i can't tell you because you're an irresponsible asshole so go back to your post" instead of being all vague and cryptic about it.

They basically DID say that.

How does letting everyone know that there's a plan(A plan mind you, not what it is) collapse everyone's hope?

It's not that it "collapses hope", they said there was a plan. They were so vague Poe et al assumed it was "just keep running until fuel runs out and hope something comes along", but they were wrong.

It's that revealing the details would have given enemy agents a chance to leak the details to the First Order, resulting in the plan failing. Which, I'll remind you, is exactly what happened, thanks to Poe and friends. There's a serious possibility there were other agents in the fleet. It was a risk they couldn't take.

Take Poe and the rest of the gang out of the equation for the moment. Barring some headcanon that simply wasn't present in the film, without their actions, the Resistance would've gone to the transports, left under cloak, the First Order would've kept chasing the cruiser, and eventually blown it up, and thought they killed the Resistance, while they settled themselves into their new base in secret. That was the plan all along. It's a plan that the protagonists ruined; half the Resistance got slaughtered when the cloaking was breached, the First Order knows they're alive, they know where the base was, they're still on the run, etc. Had they just sat around and done nothing, everyone would be better off.

The entire point of that arc was that doing something stupid for the sake of doing something is not smart, when you don't have all the information to begin with. They should've trusted their leadership. Who did, in fact, know exactly what they were doing.

[Nefarious Tea]

Headcannon: I figure The Supremacy might be the only ship in the sweet spot of sizes for this to be a viable tactic, with regular sized Star Destroyers you have to be too precise, and a craft as large as the Death Star probably wouldn't have taken as much damage. Hyperspace is another dimension so merely pointing your ship towards the enemy isn't enough, you'd need to calculate the jump point as being inside the other ship.

Head-canon not required: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inter...estroyer/Canon

Gravity well projectors, which generate "fake" masses, prevent ships from jumping to hyperspace. This utterly contravenes the tactic Holdo used, although really they were mostly used to prevent ships from escaping to hyperspace. The only reason Holdo's suicide run even worked is because Hux is so incompetent that he had no idea what she was doing until it was too late.

Illo dicto, any ship getting hit with the kinds of energy generated by a hyperspace collision like that would be utterly obliterated (I did the math like 100 pages ago and suffice to say that if anything, the damage to the FO's fleet was way LESS than it should have been). The Death Star wouldn't be safe either, but it was just so massive it has enough gravity on its own to make such a tactic a non-issue. Precision doesn't matter, anyway; the calculated jump point for a hyperspace jump is the destination. You can just jump into hyperspace willy-nilly. The navicomputer is there so you can do it safely.

[eschatological]

TO be honest, I thought there *was* a spy in the fleet. In fact, before that hyperspace tracking thing came up, I thought Finn was probably chipped in some way as a former Stormtrooper, and he'd have to realize it and that would send him on his arc for the movie, to try and protect the Rebellion. Get a master codebreaker to de-chip him, imo.

That's how I would have done it, at least.

[Aurrora]

Head-canon not required: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inter...estroyer/Canon

Gravity well projectors, which generate "fake" masses, prevent ships from jumping to hyperspace. This utterly contravenes the tactic Holdo used, although really they were mostly used to prevent ships from escaping to hyperspace. The only reason Holdo's suicide run even worked is because Hux is so incompetent that he had no idea what she was doing until it was too late.

Illo dicto, any ship getting hit with the kinds of energy generated by a hyperspace collision like that would be utterly obliterated (I did the math like 100 pages ago and suffice to say that if anything, the damage to the FO's fleet was way LESS than it should have been). The Death Star wouldn't be safe either, but it was just so massive it has enough gravity on its own to make such a tactic a non-issue. Precision doesn't matter, anyway; the calculated jump point for a hyperspace jump is the destination. You can just jump into hyperspace willy-nilly. The navicomputer is there so you can do it safely.

Which would only prevent the tactic if an interdictor were present.
The Death Star shouldn't have enough mass to create its own gravity well, with the new canon planets don't. Han flies the Millennium Falcon through hyperspace into Starkiller base's atmosphere in TFA, and the Loth-wolves in Rebels walk through hyperspace through the planet.

[Jotaux]

For those who are questioning the bombs, theres a very simple explanation that actually works without need for technobabble:

1) Their ships must have some form of artificial gravity (the bomb pilot fell down the stairs/kicked the ladder to make the switch fall)
2) Once the bombs left the artificial gravity field, they would keep moving in that direction because of newtons 1st law (in layman's terms, things dont change which way they're moving unless something else makes them)

As for the rest of the movie, it all felt very thin and undeveloped. Snoke died before we knew anything about him other than that he was "evil" so most of his actual intentions etc were never fully explored, leaving him feeling like nothing more than a plot device, the entire thread with fin and his new friend going to that planet to get the hacker ultimately felt like the director went "well we gotta have them do -something-" and while it touched upon the shittiness of the universe at large, didnt really feel like it added to the story very much, and the movie really felt far smaller than the original/prequel series, as my wife said to me it was more like "star small battle in one tiny bit of space with maybe a trip to another planet once" than "star wars"

That being said, the movie had some great comedy, the scenes with phasma were badass and that one bit with the cruiser jumping to lightspeed was utterly perfect

It can't be just gravity, the balls near the top would be accelerating for a longer period of time than the ones on the bottom and knock into the others. I figure it has to be some sort of rail gun or just something that pushes them out at a constant rate.

[Nefarious Tea]

Which would only prevent the tactic if an interdictor were present. The Death Star shouldn't have enough mass to create its own gravity well, with the new canon planets don't. Han flies the Millennium Falcon through hyperspace into Starkiller base's atmosphere in TFA, and the Loth-wolves in Rebels walk through hyperspace through the planet.

I mean, Snoke's flagship is compensating-for-a-tiny-penis levels of huge, and with 30 years' worth of tech advancement I wouldn't be surprised if it, if not all of the FO star destroyers, were capable of projecting gravity wells. You're probably right with the Rebels thing, that sounds incredibly stupid and worse, contradictory towards what Han says in the original trilogy. At least in TFA, you could explain that away as "Safeties? What safeties?"

[Aurrora]

TO be honest, I thought there *was* a spy in the fleet. In fact, before that hyperspace tracking thing came up, I thought Finn was probably chipped in some way as a former Stormtrooper, and he'd have to realize it and that would send him on his arc for the movie, to try and protect the Rebellion. Get a master codebreaker to de-chip him, imo.

That's how I would have done it, at least.

Certainly would have made a better movie. Rose and Finn get to the hyperspace tracking room on The Supremacy only to find it empty, the First Order hasn't been tracking the Resistance Fleet through hyperspace in a ridiculously specific way that has only one ship doing the tracking at a time. Instead they discover that there must be a mole.

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I mean, Snoke's flagship is compensating-for-a-tiny-penis levels of huge, and with 30 years' worth of tech advancement I wouldn't be surprised if it, if not all of the FO star destroyers, were capable of projecting gravity wells. You're probably right with the Rebels thing, that sounds incredibly stupid and worse, contradictory towards what Han says in the original trilogy. At least in TFA, you could explain that away as "Safeties? What safeties?"

Han only warns about traveling too close to a star or supernova, nothing about things as small as a planet.

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It's that revealing the details would have given enemy agents a chance to leak the details to the First Order, resulting in the plan failing. Which, I'll remind you, is exactly what happened, thanks to Poe and friends. There's a serious possibility there were other agents in the fleet. It was a risk they couldn't take.

Take Poe and the rest of the gang out of the equation for the moment. Barring some headcanon that simply wasn't present in the film, without their actions, the Resistance would've gone to the transports, left under cloak, the First Order would've kept chasing the cruiser, and eventually blown it up, and thought they killed the Resistance, while they settled themselves into their new base in secret. That was the plan all along. It's a plan that the protagonists ruined; half the Resistance got slaughtered when the cloaking was breached, the First Order knows they're alive, they know where the base was, they're still on the run, etc. Had they just sat around and done nothing, everyone would be better off.

Except if there was an enemy agent on the ship they would have found out about the evacuation plan and alerted the First Order about it when they had to get on the transports. So being secretive about it would have accomplished nothing.

You don't even get to make the claim that they considered an enemy agent onboard as a possibility because if they had searched for one they would have found Poe seemingly in contact with The Supremacy(I may be off on my chronology here, I can't recall if Poe talked with Finn when he was on the ship before the mutiny).