Mythic raiding guild that uses dkp? Anyone?

[Ehrenpanzer]

I once witnesses some DKP loot drama.

It was back in WOTLK. We were doing Naxx and were struggling with Kel'Thuzad 25. Eventually we downed and he dropped hunter head token and rifle. This hunter guy in the raid rolled on both and won them because he had the most dkp. Some people got pissed.

So...basically your raid team was retarded is what you are saying.....

[Comfort]

I only skimmed this thread, but while i was progress raiding I used both epgp and loot council in different guilds.

The biggest problem with EPGP even with decay is the fact there are a lot of places to get loot in the game now outside of raiding (WQ/M+/PvP TFs). A person getting lucky on items outside of raiding has no need to bid on off pieces and can take the best trinkets/tier over other players. This system tends to ignore who has what amount of tier pieces and often 4 sets are a big boost for classes.

As for loot councils it sounds to me you haven't found the right kind of guild. Or you just don't understand what goes into deciding on a piece of loot and assume its "friends prio". My guild used to use LC with people rotating from the raid team into spots with the officers being there each reset. we decided based on biggest upgrade and what players/classes would use these items best never trying to focus more on one of those points over the others.

I would honestly look for the highest progression raid team you can find that will accept you that meets your availability and accept what ever loot system they use, they are using the system for a reason and if they are doing well it works.

Also on a side note, as a healer myself I don't know why you are expecting more loot than you need, at 964 as you say and I would probably expect the tier you need after this many weeks of clear you have far more than enough gear for progressing at this point. gear should be funnelled into dps if tanks are not dying to lack of gear and healers are maintaining the raid. It seems to me you are more interested in the loot than the progression of your group. And I think you probably are mistaking their funnelling gear into dps for "friend prio".

[Jargathnan]

Over the past 11 or 12 years, I've raided with teams of varying capacities and mentalities. From hardcore/progression-minded through the gambit to casual. And across those guilds, I've worked with DKP, EPGP, Suicide Kings, loot council, and personal loot. The most successful guilds I've been a part of have all run loot council. The one exception being a guild I joined mid/late TBC, which was DKP, and was among the top guilds on the server. That guild moved to loot council with WotLK.

I think you're going to find that the more competitive you get, the more likely it is for the guild to gravitate to loot council.

I haven't seen, nor heard of, a guild using anything other than loot council or personal loot, in a couple years now. Especially not after Blizzard reworked the personal loot system to be more rewarding, around the time of Hellfire being released.

In my opinion there's no need for a system like DKP or EPGP any more. Suicide Kings was always a terrible system, and should never have existed. If you want to control the flow of gear, run a council. If you don't, go personal loot.

[Marrilaife]

- I imagine these guilds tend to have have people that yell "wtf" at every mistake. I have enough of top players in mythic+ they are so arrogent, when they fail nothing is said, anyone else fails its "wtf are you doing!" combine the clique with this and no thanks, if im unfortunate enough to get in a grp of these guys in m+ i literally just deafen myself on comms so i cant hear them.

I raided in a guild around world rank 700, 1700 and 300. Never in a "top of the top" (like top 100) so I don't have experience from there. But I can say it doesn't matter which of the 3 guilds it was, people reactions to wipefests and mistakes were similar. At start it was all jokes and trying to keep the mood up, but if the guild got stuck on a boss, moods would get worse. It's inevitable. A stable guild can overcome this in the long run, but there will always be swearing and complaining if "that guy" wiped the raid again or shit happened and near kill failed at 1%.

The biggest difference wasn't in atmosphere or in how "hardcore" they are, but in the performance and learning curve. Going from a guild where I'm like "omg I can do this boss with arms behind my back and they still don't grasp it" to a guild where I'm the one having to catch up to the rest of the team is an interesting experience, and one that I think allows to improve as a player, because you feel motivated to do better. Of course everyone has their skill ceiling (I couldn't perform at the level top 100 guilds require) and some people are just more casual and want a guild where people don't care that much about performance rather be relaxed.

But I didn't see much difference in the amount of "wtf" tryhards vs chill people between those guilds, every guild has some amount of elitists who think they are better than everyone in the world, it's just more hilarious when these types don't have the skill to back it up. And even in the most progressed of the 3 guilds I see a fair deal of raid loggers and people who aren't that serious about the game. And each guild had its own deal of parse whores, you know these people who won't do any mechanics because they only care about "top deeps".

What you point out as toxicity in m+ is mostly an issue of these people treating strangers badly, they probably wouldn't dare to behave like that towards their guildies, but anonymity and "I won't see this guy again" brings the worst out of people. I've had a displeasure to meet one of the guild leaders from my server in a m+ pug months ago, and he was toxic as hell, and guess what happened, his guild disbanded in the middle of Tomb while the other guilds go on, in the end he transferred servers, hopped into few guilds and quit WOW. That's often the fate of people who believe they're the bee's knees until their little illusion collapses.

There is no linear correlation between toxicity and being hardcore / top player. Toxicity exists at all levels of skill. It's mostly a factor of being self-conceited which is fairly common among gamers.

[Deleted]

I raided in a guild around world rank 700, 1700 and 300. Never in a "top of the top" (like top 100) so I don't have experience from there. But I can say it doesn't matter which of the 3 guilds it was, people reactions to wipefests and mistakes were similar. At start it was all jokes and trying to keep the mood up, but if the guild got stuck on a boss, moods would get worse. It's inevitable. A stable guild can overcome this in the long run, but there will always be swearing and complaining if "that guy" wiped the raid again or shit happened and near kill failed at 1%.

The biggest difference wasn't in atmosphere or in how "hardcore" they are, but in the performance and learning curve. Going from a guild where I'm like "omg I can do this boss with arms behind my back and they still don't grasp it" to a guild where I'm the one having to catch up to the rest of the team is an interesting experience, and one that I think allows to improve as a player, because you feel motivated to do better. Of course everyone has their skill ceiling (I couldn't perform at the level top 100 guilds require) and some people are just more casual and want a guild where people don't care that much about performance rather be relaxed.

But I didn't see much difference in the amount of "wtf" tryhards vs chill people between those guilds, every guild has some amount of elitists who think they are better than everyone in the world, it's just more hilarious when these types don't have the skill to back it up. And even in the most progressed of the 3 guilds I see a fair deal of raid loggers and people who aren't that serious about the game. And each guild had its own deal of parse whores, you know these people who won't do any mechanics because they only care about "top deeps".

What you point out as toxicity in m+ is mostly an issue of these people treating strangers badly, they probably wouldn't dare to behave like that towards their guildies, but anonymity and "I won't see this guy again" brings the worst out of people. I've had a displeasure to meet one of the guild leaders from my server in a m+ pug months ago, and he was toxic as hell, and guess what happened, his guild disbanded in the middle of Tomb while the other guilds go on, in the end he transferred servers, hopped into few guilds and quit WOW. That's often the fate of people who believe they're the bee's knees until their little illusion collapses.

There is no linear correlation between toxicity and being hardcore / top player. Toxicity exists at all levels of skill. It's mostly a factor of being self-conceited which is fairly common among gamers.

Your gaming experience sounds around the same as mine, except i have played for around 10 years, a little less.

I agree with everything you have said, in my personal experience the epgp guilds i have been in have tended to be alot more chilled as everyone knows what the system is, nobody can cry, if you dont turn up to raid you arent going to have any say, you can make the decision whether the guild is good for you or not before you even join, instead of raiding with a team for 3/4 weeks and coming to the realisation that the council dont know what they are doing and notice the gms alt that he plays half and half has won the most items.

I can remember 3 guilds that i was in that was epgp, and all of them had very little turnover in terms of players, this guild that i just joined i checked the guild log, a steady progression of players joining, virtually none leaving, where as the one i just left, lots leaving and seemingly the same number joining, your guild joining/leaving log will ultimately tell you alot about how nice a guild is to be in i believe.

- - - Updated - - -

I only skimmed this thread, but while i was progress raiding I used both epgp and loot council in different guilds.

The biggest problem with EPGP even with decay is the fact there are a lot of places to get loot in the game now outside of raiding (WQ/M+/PvP TFs). A person getting lucky on items outside of raiding has no need to bid on off pieces and can take the best trinkets/tier over other players. This system tends to ignore who has what amount of tier pieces and often 4 sets are a big boost for classes.

As for loot councils it sounds to me you haven't found the right kind of guild. Or you just don't understand what goes into deciding on a piece of loot and assume its "friends prio". My guild used to use LC with people rotating from the raid team into spots with the officers being there each reset. we decided based on biggest upgrade and what players/classes would use these items best never trying to focus more on one of those points over the others.

I would honestly look for the highest progression raid team you can find that will accept you that meets your availability and accept what ever loot system they use, they are using the system for a reason and if they are doing well it works.

Also on a side note, as a healer myself I don't know why you are expecting more loot than you need, at 964 as you say and I would probably expect the tier you need after this many weeks of clear you have far more than enough gear for progressing at this point. gear should be funnelled into dps if tanks are not dying to lack of gear and healers are maintaining the raid. It seems to me you are more interested in the loot than the progression of your group. And I think you probably are mistaking their funnelling gear into dps for "friend prio".

Geared players contribute to gearing the guild too, i will try and simplify my point.

imagine its only a 2 man raid, based on the drop chance of personal loot, 1 item every 5 bosses
over 4 weeks 16 items are going to be available, 8 generated each

Geared player needs 2 items which are titanforged
Undergeared player gets the remaining 14 items as geared player doesnt need any of them.

The alternative
2 man raid 2 undergeared players, same example 16 items 8 generated by each

undergeared player 1 wins 8 items
undergeared player 2 wins 8 items

The guild is not as strong without the geared player in the raid as undergeared player 2 is playing catch up too taking items off undergeared player 1.

By excluding geared player from your raid because you want all the titanforged aswell aswell as the 14 upgrades your actually hurting your own gearing speed if the geared player decides to leave.

As i have said previously, if you give geared players reason to attend your raid also, your progression will be a lot smoother as your raid will get geared faster from the items they generate that they dont need.

More casual semi-hardcore guilds should seriously consider epgp more, instead of just looking to what method and paragon do and thinking they are doing the same thing, in most cases it doesnt make a difference, you still have a core of 2000 ranked players, and in the cases which i have experienced (corrupt councils) they are actually HURTING the guilds progression by being biased, as they are losing players left right and centre due to how the guild is run.

[Spl4sh3r]

The problem with PL is that you may loose a shit ton of loot because blizzard restringed how many items you can trade. Tier piece you don't need but it's the first one you loot? Too bad, you can't trade it. Higher itlvl piece you don't want because it has bad stats? Wops, too bad again, can't trade it. And the list continues... If they changed how the system worked maybe it would be worth using it in a serious raid enviroment. In the meanwhile Master Looter is far superior.

I understand the tier piece, but that will fix itself after a few runs. As for the higher item level loot, most slots are already covered by legendaries anyway by now. Meaning it isn't much that makes you have lower item level forcing you to keep the pieces. At least not unless you switch mains a lot.

[clevin]

This is mostly a problem caused by M+. OP runs it a lot and so has a higher item level than people in guild who don't. The problem is that if you then give raid loot to the people who don't farm M+ you're rewarding people who aren't doing as much as the others in order to gear up which is kind of a WTF action.

If I was leading a progression minded raid I'd do this:

1) Have 1-2 M+ farm nights in guild. Raider have to show up for some level of these (1 night if we run 2, whatever). IF they can't, they need tp PUG some M+. Baseline - do enough to at least get the chest (yes, that's one. I know).

2) If someone spams M+ all of the time outside of raid and thus pulls ahead, that's on them. They're still in the running for tier on an equal basis, but they'll geared like others in their role and if it's a non-tier piece and it's a minor upgrade for them but a big one for someone else, they'll not get it.

3) People who don't maintain the M+ participation we defined in #1 above are off the raid team.

ALTERNATIVELY

1) Explicitly set the expectation that no one is expected to run any M+ at all and that if someone spams them, the loot will happen per #2 above.

[Santoryu]

I hate loot council. It takes ages to get an item as a new member since there's always a list of people for a certain item. Not to mention the fact how easily corruptible it is. All in all it causes unnecessary drama. In my opinion DKP or EPGP with decay are the best options, simply because they're more objective in their nature. If you raid more than someone else, you'll get more gear, plain and simple.

Let's face it, we raid for the EPIX loot.

A while ago I was in a classic raiding guild which used DKP. You'd get 10 DKP for signing up and showing up, 5 DKP per boss kill. There was also a weekly farm system, whereby members had the chance to gain an extra 25 DKP per week by sending in mats for consumables to the guild bank, which were later made available to purchase by the raiders themselves (yes, it was that awesome). Everyone would have their total DKP decay by approximately 25% every week. Tier items were priced at a starting price of 15 dkp each, while non-tier items were priced at 25 DKP. Of course we geared up our warriors in tier gear first, since we needed capable tanks for Naxxramas, but other than that we went by straight DKP rules and logic and it worked wonderfully.

Whereas in LC, you'd have to wait ages to get an item if you're a new member and that just sucks.

[Zka]

Loot council is 100% the best way to progress through raids.

This. I wouldn't even join a guild that used DKP for anything. If it's casual, just use personal loot. If it's hardcore, loot council to maximize group potential.

[Byleth]

If they know they are going to fail ? You actually keep them the whole trial knowing they will get kicked ? Literally disgusting.

I understand how you took that from my comments, but no, generally we bench them for the rest of the run and tell them after.

There has been a couple of special circumstances in our guild where the raider in question is a partner/friend of a raider... That can get messy.

[Marrilaife]

A while ago I was in a classic raiding guild which used DKP. You'd get 10 DKP for signing up and showing up, 5 DKP per boss kill. There was also a weekly farm system, whereby members had the chance to gain an extra 25 DKP per week by sending in mats for consumables to the guild bank, which were later made available to purchase by the raiders themselves (yes, it was that awesome).

I remember being in a similar guild back in wotlk, tldr everyone was signing for farm night to rack easy per-boss-points and when it came to wipe night no kill suddenly several people would have "something come up, sorry". Later on epgp systems started adding points for per hour progress and so on, because literally no one wanted to come for progress and get only repair bill no loot, and no dkp.

And "donating to the guild bank" to be in good favours with the GM is the most corrupt thing I've seen, and I've seen it in the past. No idea how can anyone be nostalgic about it. The fact raiders could "purchase" it only means GM had more gold in his pocket. Since back then I reckon there weren't even guild repair systems.

Not even mentioning situations where dkp was managed by some officer who secretly manipulated standings in his favour... claiming that dkp was transparent and fair unlike loot council is not exactly 100% accurate.

[Santoryu]

I remember being in a similar guild back in wotlk, tldr everyone was signing for farm night to rack easy per-boss-points and when it came to wipe night no kill suddenly several people would have "something come up, sorry". Later on epgp systems started adding points for per hour progress and so on, because literally no one wanted to come for progress and get only repair bill no loot, and no dkp.

And "donating to the guild bank" to be in good favours with the GM is the most corrupt thing I've seen, and I've seen it in the past. No idea how can anyone be nostalgic about it. The fact raiders could "purchase" it only means GM had more gold in his pocket. Since back then I reckon there weren't even guild repair systems.

Not even mentioning situations where dkp was managed by some officer who secretly manipulated standings in his favour... claiming that dkp was transparent and fair unlike loot council is not exactly 100% accurate.

We didn’t donate to the guild bank in order to get favorable treatment by the GM lol, what made you conclude that? We simply sent mats to the guild bank which were turned to consumables to be used during raids and help the guild progress, which is why it awarded extra dkp if you did it. And the gold gained form selling consumes to raiders (the prices were like 1/3 of the AH prices) was used for....you guessed it! More consumables!! In addition, even those who didn’t donate could buy consumables. Furthermore, if your members didn’t show up for progress nights, you had bigger issues to deal with than your loot system.

Also, the system was managed by a very capable officer core and there was no manipulation of standings whatsoever.

[Sturmbringe]

This. I wouldn't even join a guild that used DKP for anything. If it's casual, just use personal loot. If it's hardcore, loot council to maximize group potential.

Ι would never, ever join a guild with Loot Council. Loot distribution is never fair in a LC Guild, and in my experience females, whores and generally anyone connected to the Officers or GM gets showered with gear "Because we said so" whereas other people get either no gear or get trolled by being purposefully given upgrades of little value.

I don't see why anyone would join a Loot Council guild, except ofc if it is a corrupt guild and they are in league under the table with GM or Officers. It just don't make any sense to do so for anyone who has played WoW for years and knows the inner workings of Guilds.

[Santoryu]

Ι would never, ever join a guild with Loot Council. Loot distribution is never fair in a LC Guild, and in my experience females, whores and generally anyone connected to the Officers or GM gets showered with gear "Because we said so" whereas other people get either no gear or get trolled by being purposefully given upgrades of little value.

I don't see why anyone would join a Loot Council guild, except ofc if it is a corrupt guild and they are in league under the table with GM or Officers. It just don't make any sense to do so for anyone who has played WoW for years and knows the inner workings of Guilds.

Couldn’t agree more.

[Battlebeard]

DKP is by far most fair, IF the raid members are playing equally good. That way, they save up points to buy things.

The problem is that most of the time, raid members are NOT equally good. People can be on kinda different levels. Just because you attend a raid and save DKP, it doesn't mean you deserve the gear. If one guy feels carried but have good attendence, it's not fair to give that person loot regardless of how much DKP.

So, in theory DKP is good, but it simply doesn't become a fair system. Maybe in super top guilds, but for most guilds, nope, some people will be better, and hence, deserve the nice loot and or mounts etc first.

Skill (not necessarily high DPS but tackling mechanics etc) should be rewarded before attendence! DKP only reward the guys who show up, regardless if they are good or bad.

[Marrilaife]

Also, the system was managed by a very capable officer core and there was no manipulation of standings whatsoever.

Good for you, but that says about the guild not about the system. There are many people here who said they're in loot council guilds and the loot distribution is fair. There are people in other guilds who say in their guild loot distribution is unfair, and they only want personal loot. All depends on people.

We didn’t donate to the guild bank in order to get favorable treatment by the GM lol, what made you conclude that?

I didn't say YOU in YOUR guild did, I said I used be once in a guild where donations to the guild bank gave people special treatment and I think this is really wrong, people who lack skill and wipe raid get loot over those who carried them and made kills happen just because someone farmed herbs all night... I knew few people who continuously used fishing bot to get fish. Some of them finally got caught in ban waves in WOD or MOP. Farming outside of raid shouldn't be more important than what you do in raid.

Furthermore, if your members didn’t show up for progress nights, you had bigger issues to deal with than your loot system.

Obviously, I've been in better or worse guilds across 10+ years I'm playing this game and I could say than in some policing people was necessary. If guild had to put rules about penalties for being late or showing unenchanted, that means it has been an issue enough to mention it in the guild rules. But yeah, a few guilds had issue with people who come only for the farm night. Sensible guilds preferred stable members over the on-off ones, stupid guilds made rules that could be abused to the benefit of the cherry pickers. Worst case was the bench system where leader would pick people "who weren't there last time", so skipping progress night because "something came up" gave them better chance to not be benched on next farm raid (when raid size wasn't flex, so it was an issue). Yes, it was lame, and I didn't stay long there, because their loot system was silly too, basically "everyone /roll" and they didn't even care if someone got more loot already, it was minuscule upgrade for him or wrong secondaries - won roll, his loot. And there were few lootwhores that would /roll on anything equippable.

The guild I knew about manipulating DKP was a different guild, I wasn't in it, it was my guild's rival guild at the end of Cata, and we got few recruits from there after they found out officers were tampering with the website that tracked who got how much gear, or who got some mysterious out of nowhere extra effort points.

DKP is by far most fair, IF the raid members are playing equally good. That way, they save up points to buy things.

The problem is that most of the time, raid members are NOT equally good. People can be on kinda different levels. Just because you attend a raid and save DKP, it doesn't mean you deserve the gear. If one guy feels carried but have good attendence, it's not fair to give that person loot regardless of how much DKP.

So, in theory DKP is good, but it simply doesn't become a fair system. Maybe in super top guilds, but for most guilds, nope, some people will be better, and hence, deserve the nice loot and or mounts etc first.

Skill (not necessarily high DPS but tackling mechanics etc) should be rewarded before attendence! DKP only reward the guys who show up, regardless if they are good or bad.

This is also true, most loot councils will award gear to their best dps (damage, raid awareness and attendance combined) over people they consider "warm bodies", and as much as it hurts people's feelings to know they're second rank, in many cases this has a point, why award gear to Joe Oblivious who will die in every second void zone over the guy who carries the raid. The only solution for people who are just less skilled is to join a less progressed guild where they will be more on par with other members instead of "getting carried". At the moment thanks to coins, mission caches and so forth it might be still beneficial to stay in a guild where you're getting "carried" but get less loot from drops, since you will be killing more bosses overall, than to be in a guild that kills much less bosses in the same time frame. However it feels disheartening for the guy to know he's the fifth wheel, so it might be a better solution to just step down to a guild more on their level.

There are some corrupt loot councils, but awarding loot to better performers first has its merit.

[Santoryu]

Good for you, but that says about the guild not about the system. There are many people here who said they're in loot council guilds and the loot distribution is fair. There are people in other guilds who say in their guild loot distribution is unfair, and they only want personal loot. All depends on people.

It think it says about both, since the system works beautifully if used as intended and not abused.

I didn't say YOU in YOUR guild did, I said I used be once in a guild where donations to the guild bank gave people special treatment and I think this is really wrong, people who lack skill and wipe raid get loot over those who carried them and made kills happen just because someone farmed herbs all night... I knew few people who continuously used fishing bot to get fish. Some of them finally got caught in ban waves in WOD or MOP. Farming outside of raid shouldn't be more important than what you do in raid.

Oh, it came off that way to me, sorry. Yeah, I get the problem with bots in this case, but keep in mind that the maximum amount of DKP we could get per week by sending in items was 25, whereas a whole naxx 40 clear would yield 85 DKP. Of course it's not more important, but if it helps people out with consumables, which are needed in naxx 40, it should be rewarded. Keep in mind this was a vanilla guild.

This is also true, most loot councils will award gear to their best dps (damage, raid awareness and attendance combined) over people they consider "warm bodies", and as much as it hurts people's feelings to know they're second rank, in many cases this has a point, why award gear to Joe Oblivious who will die in every second void zone over the guy who carries the raid

Rewarding the best DPS with loot in a raid where most encounters are execution rather than dps checks is incomprehensibly dumb. Also, DPS is dependent on gear to a certain extent. Someone with tier 3 will always outdamage someone wearing tier 1, even if they're both equally skilled in terms of their class mechanics. Rewarding the better geared player simply because of higher dps is irrational. Naturally, people who repeat silly mistakes that wipe the guild receive a DKP penalty. We've had minus dkp awarded to people for not having their weapon coated with an oil. But if attendance is measured as you said, that's fine, but it should outweigh the damage.

Our loot system was mainly DKP, but for warrior tanks (remember, vanilla wow) we made exceptions and prioritized gearing them up first, since properly geared tanks play a deciding role in vanila. One could say we had a bit of a hybrid system, which was mostly DKP, but used loot council elements in certain, vital situations. Furthermore, we had this website for DKP tracking which had a log so nothing could be altered in a clandestine manner. In addition to that, it had this neat feature called "lifetime DKP", which was DKP you had amassed since joining the guild and there was this very short (around 5 pieces of loot in total IIRC) list of items that could be bid on with lifetime DKP.

There are some corrupt loot councils, but awarding loot to better performers first has its merit.

True, but many times this becomes difficult to gauge. What if someone doesn't play in a minmax manner, but nevertheless gets the job done correctly and joins every single one of your raids. On the other hand you have a player who is objectively better than the other player in terms of DPS, for example, but only attends 2 raids a month. The meaning of the word "better" changes here in my opinion and I would call the first player better than the first, even if his dps and overall performance is worse, simply because he helps the guild out more by attending more raids.

[Marrilaife]

Rewarding the best DPS with loot in a raid where most encounters are execution rather than dps checks is incomprehensibly dumb. Also, DPS is dependent on gear to a certain extent. Someone with tier 3 will always outdamage someone wearing tier 1, even if they're both equally skilled in terms of their class mechanics. Rewarding the better geared player simply because of higher dps is irrational. Naturally, people who repeat silly mistakes that wipe the guild receive a DKP penalty. We've had minus dkp awarded to people for not having their weapon coated with an oil. But if attendance is measured as you said, that's fine, but it should outweigh the damage.

You're talking about vanilla situation, where DKP had its merits because loot was very sparse and you couldn't expect to get fully geared if boss dropped 2 loots per 40 people. I'm saying in later expansions, from wotlk to wod, I've still seen guilds using loot systems that made sense in vanilla, but since then you'd never run into a situation your recruits are really undergeared. That was a thing in vanilla and tbc when catch ups were non existent and the guild had to "gear up" a guy to make him raid ready. Nowadays we have things like logs in your gear bracket, so it's less of a point "I do less dps because I have less gear", yes, he does less dps than the guy with 20 ilvls more, but you can see on logs is he parsing green or purple in his bracket. People still want to excuse themselves they do 400k less dps than expected because they "lack a legendary" or something (just seen a thread like that few days ago). Also we aren't talking about trials (they usually get lower loot prio no matter the system), we're talking about long term raiders that the guild leadership can usually tell what they're capable of, you usually know who are the stronger players in the team and who are the weaker ones even if no one ranks them officially.

True, but many times this becomes difficult to gauge. What if someone doesn't play in a minmax manner, but nevertheless gets the job done correctly and joins every single one of your raids. On the other hand you have a player who is objectively better than the other player in terms of DPS, for example, but only attends 2 raids a month. The meaning of the word "better" changes here in my opinion and I would call the first player better than the first, even if his dps and overall performance is worse, simply because he helps the guild out more by attending more raids.

As I said, attendance and raid awareness are a factor. If someone has wobbly attendance, he shouldn't get much loot because you can't count on that guy to be there when you need him the most. Currently casual normal and heroic guilds probably can do personal loot and be fine with it, raid size is flex, so people can "have a life" and show up 2 times a month and be ok. In most mythic guilds if you don't upkeep 80-90% attendance, you'd be on the way out of the team or delegated to be a perma backup. It's an unfortunate side effect on mythic being fixed size and also later bosses in the tier being somewhat comp dependent, so if you need specific classes for x boss you want to be at least 90% sure people you picked are gonna be there through 300 wipes. Also slotting a new / inexperienced / backup guy can set you back a lot, I remember being 200+ pulls into mythic Gul'dan or 150+ pulls into mythic Avatar and then x guy was missing so we had to fill in, and the whole guild had to wait until the replacement learns the fight, because he would underperform due to sheer lack of experience on the boss.

Raid awareness is also a thing, if a guy is top dps on patchwerk style boss, but if there's something complicated to do he suddenly flops or worse, refuses to do it because "it's a dps loss", that's not a good player. We all know "that guy" who never moved to back soaks on Krosus, never dpsed adds on Killrogg / Xul'horac, always waited for the other person with link to run to him on Desolate Host, and so forth. Thing is, it's hard to factor that in a dkp system, because the guy doesn't exactly "wipe the raid" or "come late", he's just a parse whore who doesn't care to cooperate and do tactics.

Smart raid leaders notice not only people who can "top the meter" but also the people who do all the "bitch jobs" and thanks to them these crucial tasks are done and the raid doesn't wipe. I guess you could theoretically be adding small amounts of dkp for doing these like pod job on high command, ccing adds on aggramar, soaking the charge on varimathras and so on. But do modern dkp / epgp systems actually count these things?

[Onikaroshi]

Personal loot works just fine. When we have gear we don't need that much we'll roll on it. I don't see why we need to intentionally revert to a more complicated system with more room for abuse.

Until next expansion when tier is no longer a thing PL will be inferior to all others. The shear fact that it's possible for one class that you have only one of to get multiple untradeable pieces is just fail.

[Santoryu]

You're talking about vanilla situation, where DKP had its merits because loot was very sparse and you couldn't expect to get fully geared if boss dropped 2 loots per 40 people. I'm saying in later expansions, from wotlk to wod, I've still seen guilds using loot systems that made sense in vanilla, but since then you'd never run into a situation your recruits are really undergeared. That was a thing in vanilla and tbc when catch ups were non existent and the guild had to "gear up" a guy to make him raid ready. Nowadays we have things like logs in your gear bracket, so it's less of a point "I do less dps because I have less gear", yes, he does less dps than the guy with 20 ilvls more, but you can see on logs is he parsing green or purple in his bracket. People still want to excuse themselves they do 400k less dps than expected because they "lack a legendary" or something (just seen a thread like that few days ago). Also we aren't talking about trials (they usually get lower loot prio no matter the system), we're talking about long term raiders that the guild leadership can usually tell what they're capable of, you usually know who are the stronger players in the team and who are the weaker ones even if no one ranks them officially.

As I said, attendance and raid awareness are a factor. If someone has wobbly attendance, he shouldn't get much loot because you can't count on that guy to be there when you need him the most. Currently casual normal and heroic guilds probably can do personal loot and be fine with it, raid size is flex, so people can "have a life" and show up 2 times a month and be ok. In most mythic guilds if you don't upkeep 80-90% attendance, you'd be on the way out of the team or delegated to be a perma backup. It's an unfortunate side effect on mythic being fixed size and also later bosses in the tier being somewhat comp dependent, so if you need specific classes for x boss you want to be at least 90% sure people you picked are gonna be there through 300 wipes. Also slotting a new / inexperienced / backup guy can set you back a lot, I remember being 200+ pulls into mythic Gul'dan or 150+ pulls into mythic Avatar and then x guy was missing so we had to fill in, and the whole guild had to wait until the replacement learns the fight, because he would underperform due to sheer lack of experience on the boss.

Raid awareness is also a thing, if a guy is top dps on patchwerk style boss, but if there's something complicated to do he suddenly flops or worse, refuses to do it because "it's a dps loss", that's not a good player. We all know "that guy" who never moved to back soaks on Krosus, never dpsed adds on Killrogg / Xul'horac, always waited for the other person with link to run to him on Desolate Host, and so forth. Thing is, it's hard to factor that in a dkp system, because the guy doesn't exactly "wipe the raid" or "come late", he's just a parse whore who doesn't care to cooperate and do tactics.

Smart raid leaders notice not only people who can "top the meter" but also the people who do all the "bitch jobs" and thanks to them these crucial tasks are done and the raid doesn't wipe. I guess you could theoretically be adding small amounts of dkp for doing these like pod job on high command, ccing adds on aggramar, soaking the charge on varimathras and so on. But do modern dkp / epgp systems actually count these things?

Yeah I keep emphasising it was a vanilla guild. The main issue I have with LC, besides it being subjective, is differentiating between 2 equally good players. How do you decide who gets the item?

They do count those things, at least we did, since you got a minus dkp penalty for screwing up constantly. Baddies never won a lot of loot.