Should the United States be held to a higher moral standard?

[PACOX]

I think all should be held to the same standard but America should look to itself to be a leader/promote higher standards.

[Mormolyce]

Shouldn’t all nations be held to the same standards?
Why should America be held to a higher standard than Canada or European nations. Or any United Nations nation...

Cheers

Well let us know when you catch up to those, and then we can talk about setting higher ones.

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It's not that at all. It's not for me. It's for the country.

I want people to be afraid to look at the US sideways. I want them to be utterly terrified at the prospect of drawing US attention.

If you want that you should probably look into how the last two Republican Presidents made the US a punchline.

This current one seems to be doing his damnedest to undermine any authority or leverage the US has on the global stage.

People are more afraid for you at the moment. You basically need an intervention.

[Allybeboba]

Well let us know when you catch up to those, and then we can talk about setting higher ones.

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If you want that you should probably look into how the last two Republican Presidents made the US a punchline.

This current one seems to be doing his damnedest to undermine any authority or leverage the US has on the global stage.

People are more afraid for you at the moment. You basically need an intervention.

Yes, do let us know when you catch up on those.

Cheers

[Skroe]

Yes, do let us know when you catch up on those.

Cheers

You don't realize what's happened do you?

Two decades ago the US left the UN Human Rights Council over significant concerns about it being mostly a place where Human Rights abusers protected itself. The leader of the West refused to participate.

Back when I was in high school, the US negotiated with the UN significant reform, and as part of it, the US would rejoin. Yielding to the moral, political and military leader of the West, Sweden and other countries in the "Western Europe and others" group at the UN, of which the US is a part, declined to compete for participation for that assembly of the reformed Human rights council. They declined to compete to ensure that the US would enter. We had won the cold war. We had the Moral high ground by in large. And our European allies recognized that, though not perfect, we were good enough on our moral and human rights situation and powerful enough that we would advance their interests and the cause of human rights by being the leading representative for the entire West in that room.

That's a profound honor for our country. Our friends and allies did not have to do that. They elected to do it. Because they believed in us.

And then we did the Iraq War. And then we did Abu Ghirab. And then GITMO because GITMO, and we held terrorists for 15 years without trial.

Today in 2017, a repeat of what our allies did in the early 2000s is unimaginable, because of things we have done and justified that have sapped us of our moral authority. Europe did nothing remotely amoral by comparison, and as a result are now, in 2017, the high ground for moral governance and human rights, not the US. The influx of refugees, that Europe has adsorbed, albeit grudgingly, has only served to advance its moral authority.

Americans are infantile in their obsession with hard power and threats. The US became strong because of Soft power. Because of our ability to influence and subtly shift events and affairs in our favor, oven by wielding moral authority and human rights as a tool. During the Cold War, for example, there was no question, the West was in the Moral right in the free world's conflict with Communism. The US met with the USSR o n political grounds. But the united west existentially rejected any kind of moral equivalency between the the Free World and the Soviet Bloc.

Today, that's been successfully undermined everywhere outside of Europe. America by it's conduct. China by its wealth and success. Russia through propaganda.


America is, right now, not remotely the moral and human rights leader on Earth, for the first time since probably the turn of the 20th century. Being removed from the bloody wars of the first 20 years of 20th century helped buld it. Our victory in World War II and the Marshall plan helped cement it. Our victory in the Cold War sealed it. And we threw it away, because Osama bin Laden gave us a good scare. Right now, the moral and human rights leader is the EU.

But we can be again. There is nothing stopping us from doing so. But that would mean confronting our mistakes, our contradictions, accepting the consequences of them, and making the world see us laboring, over time, to do and be better. And that's not just on military affairs. That includes our own house. It includes criminal justice reform. Health Care. Capital Punishment. The gap between rich and poor. I generally support Capital Punishment, but if Americans don't think there is a serious moral and political cost to being one of the few countries in the world where it is still practiced, in 2018, they need to grow up.

America does far too much patting itself on the back for the achievements, in this case moral, of our grandparents and great grand-parents. Our parents and our national conduct has fallen far, far short. The world moved forward. We did not. And we came up with excuses as to why we're in the right and they're in the wrong. But all they are is excuses as to why America is weak in failing to make hard decisions nowdays.

If a future President (not Trump) wants to grab some low hanging fruit so America can get back to being on the road to being ACTUALLY in the right when it comes to human rights and moral authority, he can start by unilaterally shuttering GITMO in 6 months and taking concrete steps to cut the Federal Prison population by half.

[alexw]

And there's also no need to be insulting to people of different opinions. You want a lighter touch for the US; I don't. I think we should make it clear that the US's power isn't just a decoration, but an imminent threat.


I don't mock you for having a different opinion; it's your right. In fact, I very much enjoy your long posts, especially on space tech.




It's not that at all. It's not for me. It's for the country.

I want people to be afraid to look at the US sideways. I want them to be utterly terrified at the prospect of drawing US attention.

Do you know what people do when they see an angry rapid dog on the loose?

They corral it, then they put it down.

[Allybeboba]

You don't realize what's happened do you?

Two decades ago the US left the UN Human Rights Council over significant concerns about it being mostly a place where Human Rights abusers protected itself. The leader of the West refused to participate.

Back when I was in high school, the US negotiated with the UN significant reform, and as part of it, the US would rejoin. Yielding to the moral, political and military leader of the West, Sweden and other countries in the "Western Europe and others" group at the UN, of which the US is a part, declined to compete for participation for that assembly of the reformed Human rights council. They declined to compete to ensure that the US would enter. We had won the cold war. We had the Moral high ground by in large. And our European allies recognized that, though not perfect, we were good enough on our moral and human rights situation and powerful enough that we would advance their interests and the cause of human rights by being the leading representative for the entire West in that room.

That's a profound honor for our country. Our friends and allies did not have to do that. They elected to do it. Because they believed in us.

And then we did the Iraq War. And then we did Abu Ghirab. And then GITMO because GITMO, and we held terrorists for 15 years without trial.

Today in 2017, a repeat of what our allies did in the early 2000s is unimaginable, because of things we have done and justified that have sapped us of our moral authority. Europe did nothing remotely amoral by comparison, and as a result are now, in 2017, the high ground for moral governance and human rights, not the US. The influx of refugees, that Europe has adsorbed, albeit grudgingly, has only served to advance its moral authority.

Americans are infantile in their obsession with hard power and threats. The US became strong because of Soft power. Because of our ability to influence and subtly shift events and affairs in our favor, oven by wielding moral authority and human rights as a tool. During the Cold War, for example, there was no question, the West was in the Moral right in the free world's conflict with Communism. The US met with the USSR o n political grounds. But the united west existentially rejected any kind of moral equivalency between the the Free World and the Soviet Bloc.

Today, that's been successfully undermined everywhere outside of Europe. America by it's conduct. China by its wealth and success. Russia through propaganda.


America is, right now, not remotely the moral and human rights leader on Earth, for the first time since probably the turn of the 20th century. Being removed from the bloody wars of the first 20 years of 20th century helped buld it. Our victory in World War II and the Marshall plan helped cement it. Our victory in the Cold War sealed it. And we threw it away, because Osama bin Laden gave us a good scare. Right now, the moral and human rights leader is the EU.

But we can be again. There is nothing stopping us from doing so. But that would mean confronting our mistakes, our contradictions, accepting the consequences of them, and making the world see us laboring, over time, to do and be better. And that's not just on military affairs. That includes our own house. It includes criminal justice reform. Health Care. Capital Punishment. The gap between rich and poor. I generally support Capital Punishment, but if Americans don't think there is a serious moral and political cost to being one of the few countries in the world where it is still practiced, in 2018, they need to grow up.

America does far too much patting itself on the back for the achievements, in this case moral, of our grandparents and great grand-parents. Our parents and our national conduct has fallen far, far short. The world moved forward. We did not. And we came up with excuses as to why we're in the right and they're in the wrong. But all they are is excuses as to why America is weak in failing to make hard decisions nowdays.

If a future President (not Trump) wants to grab some low hanging fruit so America can get back to being on the road to being ACTUALLY in the right when it comes to human rights and moral authority, he can start by unilaterally shuttering GITMO in 6 months and taking concrete steps to cut the Federal Prison population by half.

You know as well as I do the the American culture isn’t the EU culture and it never will be. At least not in the near term future. The changes you are talking about will require cultural shifts.

[Skroe]

You know as well as I do the the American culture isn’t the EU culture and it never will be. At least not in the near term future. The changes you are talking about will require cultural shifts.

Cultural shifts? Did you miss the point? this isn't about us "adopting their culture". That's EXACTLY the kind of piss weak excuse making I was discussing.

I'm talking about doing the avoidable things, many of which we've STARTED to be doing, since 9/11, that has decimated our moral authority.

The fact of the matter is, 15 years ago, countries like Sweden, Germany, France and the UK collaborated to step aside so the US could take its seat at the UN human rights council, as leader of the West. They did it because they saw us as, while far from perfect, the rightful leader of the moral and human rights regime on earth, and we SHOULD be there.

Can you say they'd do that today? Can you imagine that. The answer is no. And it's not because of anything they did. It's because of things we did and continue to do, and have started to do since 9/11. We are plainly in the wrong on some of these things and our continuing to be in the wrong - and then excuse make, just as you did - saps our power.

Do you understand? The thing you just defined as "culture" makes us weak. Because it's not culture. It's a failing on our part, that you concocted an excuse to allow. But that pretty much encapsulates 21st century America. It's gone from finding ways to make things happen to finding excuses as to why it's impossible.

[Realitytrembles]

Do you know what people do when they see an angry rapid dog on the loose?

They corral it, then they put it down.

Good luck with that. You know, when the "dog" is surrounded by nothing but mice.


You don't "corral" anything with the amount of nuclear weapons the US has. You just learn to live with it. MAD anyone?

[Edge-]

Good luck with that. You know, when the "dog" is surrounded by nothing but mice.

Again, we have the language of authoritarians here. This continues to be troubling to hear/read.

You don't "corral" anything with the amount of nuclear weapons the US has. You just learn to live with it. MAD anyone?

And this is not how a country should behave at all, "Do what we say or we suicide the world!" isn't how any Democratic country should operate. Ever. That's tyrannical regimes operate.

[Realitytrembles]

Americans are infantile in their obsession with hard power and threats.

Says you. The right way to deal with annoying whiny EU moralists is to ignore them.

The right way to deal with garbage like Kim Jong Un and his ilk is to kill them. And their friends. And their favorite dog. Etc Etc

The US became strong because of Soft power. Because of our ability to influence and subtly shift events and affairs in our favor, oven by wielding moral authority and human rights as a tool.

We are not the arbiter of right and wrong in the world. No one should be. I'm concerned about the human rights of my fellow Americans, and only them. France, Uganda, China, Sri Lanka, and so on can live however they want. If they don't bring it over here, I don't care what they do.

Soft power? /snort

Do you know why people were willing to listen to the moralizing like that? Can you guess?

It's because no nation on Earth has ever had the power to destroy that the US has. The USSR was the closest. And now they're gone. The US is the only game in town. China isn't even close.

[Muzjhath]

Good luck with that. You know, when the "dog" is surrounded by nothing but mice.


You don't "corral" anything with the amount of nuclear weapons the US has. You just learn to live with it. MAD anyone?

Well, then we just let you sit in your corner. Behind your nukes. And stop trading with you. Would it be a heavy blow to start with? Yeah, but the rest of the world would survive. Would be the US who lost on it.

[Realitytrembles]

Again, we have the language of authoritarians here. This continues to be troubling to hear/read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

Reality over idealism, every time.

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Well, then we just let you sit in your corner. Behind your nukes. And stop trading with you. Would it be a heavy blow to start with? Yeah, but the rest of the world would survive. Would be the US who lost on it.

Because everyone would go along with this sort of moralizing nonsense. Every country on Earth.

Yeah, ok.

[Muzjhath]

Because everyone would go along with this sort of moralizing nonsense. Every country on Earth.

Yeah, ok.

I'm not talking about any kind of moralizing. I'm just saying that people wouldn't want to deal with a nation that came in "TRADE WITH US OR WE'LL BLOW YOU TO PIECES!"
I'm saying a policy of isolation based of "LEAVE US ALONE OR BLOW UP!" would explode in your face.
The US power projection grew along with US economic interest. Remove the power projection and the economic power goes with it. MAD isn't a power projection. For trade it'd be a cage you'd put yourself in.

Maybe you'd open one port in Florida for international trade where only the Dutch will be allowed to come as long as they leave all their bibles on the ship and promise not to proselytize to the people while ashore.

[Edge-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

Reality over idealism, every time.

Realpolitik is often confused with the philosophy of political realism.


Literally from the link you provided. That's still a pretty poor argument to justify your support of authoritarian strongman behavior. It's the kind of shit that would be right up the alley of someone like Stalin.

Because everyone would go along with this sort of moralizing nonsense. Every country on Earth.

Yeah, ok.

Everyone doesn't need to. Just enough to cripple the US economy. And do you really think that other countries wouldn't start leveraging the diplomatic and economic tools should the US go full-on tyrant and start threatening to suicide the planet unless every country gives into our demands?

[alexw]

Good luck with that. You know, when the "dog" is surrounded by nothing but mice.


You don't "corral" anything with the amount of nuclear weapons the US has. You just learn to live with it. MAD anyone?

You don't "get" how it works. If a nation acts like a mad dog then the rest of the world will sideline it and there is absolutely nothing that that nation can do about it. What do the expect the US to do? To force other nations to be its ally or friend? If they say no do you expect the US to just start nuking/invading/bombing everywhere?

The US might be the worlds only current superpower, but it only continues to hold that position because enough of the rest of the world acquiesces and believes that it is also in their best interest for that to be the case. If the US acts like a mad dog like you want it to they will all turn away, and unless you think it can invade everywhere else and force them to do its bidding then it will no longer be a superpower. Because otherwise they will ally with each other against the US and gradually lock the US out, and good luck maintaining superpower status when you have that strangling your economy.

[Realitytrembles]

Realpolitik is often confused with the philosophy of political realism.


Literally from the link you provided. That's still a pretty poor argument to justify your support of authoritarian strongman behavior. It's the kind of shit that would be right up the alley of someone like Stalin.



Everyone doesn't need to. Just enough to cripple the US economy. And do you really think that other countries wouldn't start leveraging the diplomatic and economic tools should the US go full-on tyrant and start threatening to suicide the planet unless every country gives into our demands?

The only demand would be that we be left the hell alone. No more military adventurism, no more moralizing about human rights around the world.

Seriously, can you believe the arrogance of this bullsht? https://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/

It's none of our business.

Just leave us alone.

[Mormolyce]

But that pretty much encapsulates 21st century America. It's gone from finding ways to make things happen to finding excuses as to why it's impossible.

I think that's pretty much nailed the fundamental problem.

[Heladys]

America should be judged proportionally to how much it sticks its nose in other countries business, which is a lot.

[Theodarzna]

America should be judged proportionally to how much it sticks its nose in other countries business, which is a lot.

I couldn't agree more.

In the end, it takes a unique position about itself, this extraordinary claim will get a lot of scrutinies.

[Macaquerie]

[QUOTE=Skroe;48513534I'm talking about doing the avoidable things, many of which we've STARTED to be doing, since 9/11, that has decimated our moral authority.[/QUOTE]

It's a more deeply rooted problem than that though. Firstly, America's moral authority was always built on a rather shaky foundation to begin with, since most of our actions on the world stage were motivated by economic interests and any humanitarian advancements were purely side benefits. Sure, we didn't explicitly go around doing evil shit like some of the old colonial empires so were able to claim the high ground back then, but none of that would fly today. Secondly, we've ended up getting ourselves stuck in a lot of no-win situations in our foreign entanglements. Withdrawing from the Middle East and letting the whole area descend into chaos would be yet another hit to our credibility, as the rest of the world would rightly perceive that we made a mess and didn't stick around to clean it up. With North Korea, we've made so many empty threats that they've ignored that we pretty much have no choice but to simply accept them as a nuclear power at this point.