Where will M+ take us in the future?

[klaps_05]

I hope they just balance dungeons (and bosses) better. It's retarded how +25 ash'golm is about as difficult as any +18 Seat boss.

Either that or make harder/newer dungeons give meaningful loot.

With no more artifact weapons and raids having a limited supply of gear, I can see how M+ will be a lot more grinded when weapons can start droppping too. AP as a motivator was a bit boring, but having a chance to roll high TF weapons on high M+ will make them even more attractive.

[nothingsjim]

Legion has two things that imo are the best thing that happened in WoW ever, the Suramar Quest Chain, and M+ system.

My guess is that, there will be more afflix in the future, or we can choose our own afflix (With limitation, of course). Some combination of Afflix is deemed impossible right now, but what stops players from challenging themselves?

Trash and Boss gaining new abilities at certain Key Level will be a nice addition. Like how Heroic Raid Boss has a few more abilities compare to Normal Raid Boss, and Mythic Raid Boss has even more. For instance, we can have M+ boss gain one new ability at M+4, two new abilities at M+7, three new abilities at M+10. As oppose to a flat HP/Damage increase we get nowadays with Tyrannical/Fortified.

[Hashtronaut]

Just hope they don’t go too wild with affixes (adding too many or making them too complicated).

[Charge me Doctor]

I honestly can't remember the exact ilvl you get from doing a +15 weekly, but it's like 960? Either way, you get gear from M+ a lot easier than you do from raids. Doing a +15 is much, much easier and less effort than killing Mythic Antorus bosses. However, I want to raid for the fun of it.

And since I'm only raiding HC atm, it DOES become a requirement for me to do atm, even though i skip it. I can't optimize my gear without M+. :/

A piece of 960 gear from across of all dungeon loot tables is not going to do much. I've got 3 bracers for my fire mage for last 3 weeks, hooray i guess? Raiding still provides much better optimized loot options, best trinkets and set bonuses, only raiding alts benefit from m+.

Speaking of m+15, it gives your party 3 935 piece of gear iirc, so if you aim to gear up in m+ you still have to be... below 935 average ilvl. Have you been into m+15 with such low ilvl? Because it's atrocious. Surely, i have no problems beat m+15 and we struggle in m+18 on our 950ilvl mains, but we get literally no loot reward for doing that, all of us already past the things that normally drops from m+ unless it's crazy high titanforge, and even then you often have to break your set bonus to equip that, or its already filled with legendary, or it's just a shitty trinket that gives you 2m damage per minute.

Optimizing gear in m+ is an options only for people with a lot of time on their hands, you can literally spend a whole day spamming keys and get zero upgrades for your character.

Yeah, i agree that doing a m+15 on a HC raiding toon is kinda easy but its reward is too random to be valuable, even considering its ilvl

[ydraw]

A piece of 960 gear from across of all dungeon loot tables is not going to do much. I've got 3 bracers for my fire mage for last 3 weeks, hooray i guess? Raiding still provides much better optimized loot options, best trinkets and set bonuses, only raiding alts benefit from m+.
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Only one of those things is true. Set bonuses. And they will no longer exist in the next xpac.

For many classes, both M+ gear and trinkets are better than anything you can get in raids. And they are infinitely farmable.

As someone said above, having weapon drops back in the next xpac will make M+ basically mandatory. Before Artifact weapons, weapon slot was almost the most difficult to upgrade.

Optimizing gear in m+ is an options only for people with a lot of time on their hands, you can literally spend a whole day spamming keys and get zero upgrades for your character.

Likewise you can spend a week raiding and get zero upgrades for your character.

[Aoyi]

I do hope M+ is here to stay. I enjoy the challenges and the changing affixes. It makes something we did at the end of every expansion (running dungeons over and over for X) more enjoyable by changing it up a bit every week. I don't know if they will eventually bake their own raider.io type thing into the game, but either way, I'll still be running them next expansion.

[Ophenia]

The concept is fine, the realization sucks. I hope they keep MM+ but with some tweaks.

Currently, the only thing you'll be looking for is "GO FAST LEL". The only criteria for succeeding is the time you spent in. So, exit controls, exit not-top-tier dps classes, welcome invisibility pots, welcome cheese tactics, goodbye fun.
There should be several types of success. For example, the "3 chest", instead being a "even faster than the 2 chest that is even faster than the 1 chest", could be "1 chest for doing it quickly, 1 chest for 0 death, 1 chest for whatever (maybe something related to the dungeon, like the achievements)".
This way, you could totally bring to your run a guy who will do a bit less DPS but a lot more controls/resilience.

Plus, most of affixes could be fun, but they are instead boring because they are completely counter-productive due to this "go fast" criteria. So, you don't manage around them, you find the best way to cheese it (like the pull-reset strat done in the first Arcavia packs under some affixes).

[Deleted]

No, but Raids and M+ should be separate. 4-sets etc should not work in M+, as you can't get them from M+. And vice versa. Today, you clearly benefit from doing M+ as a raider, and doing raids as a M+ player. It should be separated! Raiders should never benfit from M+ and M+ players should never benefit from Raids.

My arguments have been defeated already before by multiple people, so instead of using logic, common sense or even emotions to back up my claims I will just repeat them. With extra "!" on top to make them more ... funny?
Mate, you make no sense.

[Battlebeard]

My arguments have been defeated already before by multiple people, so instead of using logic, common sense or even emotions to back up my claims I will just repeat them. With extra "!" on top to make them more ... funny?
Mate, you make no sense.

I think it makes at least some sense? To separate M+ and Raids, just like we separate PvP and PvE sounds logical?

Just take a game like Overwatch, where casual and competitive modes are separated, does that seem crazy too? I mean, both modes are PvP, why even bother having 2 modes, right?

Some people like raids, some like M+, some like both. I respect people who do M+, it's just not for me, therefore I want a game where you chose what to play. If you want to only do raids, that should be fine, and if you want to do only M+ that should be fine too. There should be 0 incentive to go to the other unless you want to for the enjoyment. Meaning gear in M+ should not work in raids etc. That's why separate raid and M+ gear would be good. If you want to do both, sure, just do it, it would mean farming double the gear though.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

[Charge me Doctor]

I think it makes at least some sense? To separate M+ and Raids, just like we separate PvP and PvE sounds logical?

Separating PvE and PvE doesn't make any logical sense

[Battlebeard]

Separating PvE and PvE doesn't make any logical sense

I could argue that uniting all PvE as one category doesn't make much sense.

The concept of PvE is huge. Technically leveling is PvE, Questing, Dungeons, Raids, Exploring, Soloing old content, Crafting (partly getting mats etc), Doing most achivements, Proving grounds etc, etc can ALL be categories as PvE. Why not have different rules for different scenarios?

To have separate rules, gear, conditions etc for different things in the HUGE category of PvE is not a bad idea. To simply say WoW is only PvE or PvP is a too big generalization.

The player should be able to do what that person loves doing. Some people NEVER do dungeons and raids, but instead just love questing, and make new alts etc. A minority sure, but it happens. Other people like M+ but don't wanna deal with raids, and some people wanna raid but not bother with M+. Some people focus only achievements and doesn't care to do other content regulary.

It's a lot of logic to have the game more adjusted to what you enjoy doing.

You will say "you don't HAVE to do anything else than Raid" but this is just avoiding the problem. YES, I can only raid, but I can't optimize my character for the raids without doing M+. Raids have a lockout, when I am saved to the raids, I am saved. I have to wait for a week. To optimize myself, I gotta do M+ as well, and I don't like that.

[Deleted]

I could argue that uniting all PvE as one category doesn't make much sense.

The concept of PvE is huge. Technically leveling is PvE, Questing, Dungeons, Raids, Exploring, Soloing old content, Crafting (partly getting mats etc), Doing most achivements, Proving grounds etc, etc can ALL be categories as PvE. Why not have different rules for different scenarios?

To have separate rules, gear, conditions etc for different things in the HUGE category of PvE is not a bad idea. To simply say WoW is only PvE or PvP is a too big generalization.

The player should be able to do what that person loves doing. Some people NEVER do dungeons and raids, but instead just love questing, and make new alts etc. A minority sure, but it happens. Other people like M+ but don't wanna deal with raids, and some people wanna raid but not bother with M+. Some people focus only achievements and doesn't care to do other content regulary.

It's a lot of logic to have the game more adjusted to what you enjoy doing.

You will say "you don't HAVE to do anything else than Raid" but this is just avoiding the problem. YES, I can only raid, but I can't optimize my character for the raids without doing M+. Raids have a lockout, when I am saved to the raids, I am saved. I have to wait for a week. To optimize myself, I gotta do M+ as well, and I don't like that.

So, if you're saved for the week and cannot uprade/optimize your gear through raids, having another option is bad? Please, don't tell me that you HAVE to run M+ in order to progress, if you're not playing in a top guild. If you feel the need to perfect you gear, hence your performance, M+ gives you opportunity for that. Obviously you CAN get upgrades, but after a certain gear level, chain running M+ is mostly ineffective, but gives something to do the folks who have more time than the average. Tbh, it feels like you're asking for this change, just because you don't have time and/or don't want to run M+.

And with tier sets going away, there's gonna be even more freeedom regarding where you'd like to get your precious gear from. I think encouraging one source over the other would just hurt the system.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I despise M+ and I don't do them at all, however I'm happy to ignore them so I don't want them removed as such. I just hope to hell they stop gating quests and stuff behind them trying to force people to do the wretched things.

You can't complete quests in mythic+.

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Just hoping we see better balance between the affixes and dungeons and a better system to choose which dungeon you get.

[HuxNeva]

No, but Raids and M+ should be separate. 4-sets etc should not work in M+, as you can't get them from M+. And vice versa. Today, you clearly benefit from doing M+ as a raider, and doing raids as a M+ player. It should be separated! Raiders should never benfit from M+ and M+ players should never benefit from Raids.

Just like PvP players should never benefit from PvE and PvE players should not benefit from PvP.

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No, I can manage 15 just fine. But people are insanely elitist. I have "only" 950ilvl and I struggle like hell finding a +15 even though it's more than enough to do it, especially cause I have much experience. And I don't like the dungeons, I find dungeons very, very boring.

I work 70 hours a week and have busy weekends, I want to put 99% of my time in the game on the raids. I just hope for a game where this is possible!

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Well, most people would agree to keep PvP and PvE separate, won't they? I remember legendary cloak quest in MoP and people enraged cause they had to win ONE of Kotmugo and Silvershard Mines. PvPers don't like PvE and PvE'ers don't like PvP. Of course some people like both, but lots and lots of people have their thing, one of the two.

So if you can separate PvP and PvE, why not separate things even further? Split PvE even further, M+ and Raids, two sides, 0 incentive for Raiders to do M+ and M+ to do raids. That way, you can focus on what you WANT to play not everything cause you HAVE to do it to optimize your character.

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I have ALWAYS wished for a "Raiding-Moba" so to speak, you chose what class you want to play, 0 gear, 0 levels, just all abilities avaliable and ready to raid. I like WoW but I don't like the mmo parts that much. I hate leveling, gearing etc, but i LOVE raiding. I want to do raids, that's it, so the things you suggest are GOOD things to me. I would LOVE scaled raids.

AP and Legendaries is an awful system, I'm happy to see them removed from raids too.

Coining stuff is also stupid, it adds more RNG and RNG is always a bad thing.

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I honestly can't remember the exact ilvl you get from doing a +15 weekly, but it's like 960? Either way, you get gear from M+ a lot easier than you do from raids. Doing a +15 is much, much easier and less effort than killing Mythic Antorus bosses. However, I want to raid for the fun of it.

And since I'm only raiding HC atm, it DOES become a requirement for me to do atm, even though i skip it. I can't optimize my gear without M+. :/

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Well, the problem is the "compliment" part. That's what I am against. I don't want to do anything else than raids but if I don't do M+, I will not gear as fast. I just want a game where I can do raids and never even be able to improve my gear elsewhere. And for those who like M+, they should be able to do M+ without possibly improving their gear from raids.

And for CM, any gear, ANY gear could do CM gold if the player was good. You only needed to optimize your gear for server bests or for boosting others.

You seem to live with a few misconceptions:
- If you clear N/HC Antorus every week and coin, chances are very high you will get a 960 piece from there. With the coins you can even aim for a specific one. In ToS I used every single coin I had to get the owl for weeks.
- If you raid with a HC guild and they 'require' M+, there's something wrong with the guild. You should thank your guildies that do M+ as that means more loot from raids for you.
- Seems you want your weekly chest, but then get frustrated that groups bypass you for people that like and run M+ much more than you. his is the old misconception. People take from the queue the best on offer, not the minimally sufficient. However, everyone get's their own key. Taht means that after the very first week you had to run a maximum of 2 dungeons to get a 15 out of your own key.
- I love raiding and I live M+. Let me tell you: Getting gear from raids requires very much less effort than getting gear from M+. And all the best gear (tier, trinkets) comes from raids exclusively, or has a seriously higher reward/effort from raids (relics, rings, etc )

'I like WoW but I don't like the mmo parts that much. I hate leveling, gearing etc, but i LOVE raiding.'
Sounds to me like you just don't like WoW. And since high level M+ is basically 5 man raids, your even quite picky in your 'love' of raiding.

[dd614]

M+ is fun, but it's very unbalanced across affixes and classes. Some classes are objectively better than others in high end keys, which is unfortunate. Some effectively can't be used because they don't have enough defensive cooldowns.

[Wondercrab]

M+ is a great feature, but there are a lot of tweaks that could be made to improve the overall experience. The most prominent problems that I see right now are the mandatory speedrunning element and the lack of reward at the end. The timer is a nice addition for those who want to compete on leaderboards, but it shouldn't be a required mechanic for those who just prefer to progress via dungeon content. Nothing else in the game relies on speedrunning, and for a title like WoW that often requires tactics and planning to overcome difficult challenges, it feels like it's at odds with the natural ebb and flow of dungeon gameplay for most groups.

Completing a (potentially very difficult) run and getting nothing beyond a paltry amount of AP is also a huge bummer. This is more of a problem with how undesirable AP is as a PvE currency, but Mythic+ could really benefit from shifting its rewards away from the weekly chest and into individual runs. One run a week feels worthwhile (at least, once the week is over, which is another weird element of the reward structure) but subsequent runs have a high likelihood of giving you next to nothing. If we had a stronger PvE currency like valour points then this might not be an issue, but right now Mythic+ dungeons fall far short of their potential when it comes to rewards. In past expansions dungeons have felt rewarding enough to keep me running them all week, but I barely ever do more than one Mythic+ for my weekly chest.

[HuxNeva]

M+ is a great feature, but there are a lot of tweaks that could be made to improve the overall experience. The most prominent problems that I see right now are the mandatory speedrunning element and the lack of reward at the end. The timer is a nice addition for those who want to compete on leaderboards, but it shouldn't be a required mechanic for those who just prefer to progress via dungeon content. Nothing else in the game relies on speedrunning, and for a title like WoW that often requires tactics and planning to overcome difficult challenges, it feels like it's at odds with the natural ebb and flow of dungeon gameplay for most groups.

Completing a (potentially very difficult) run and getting nothing beyond a paltry amount of AP is also a huge bummer. This is more of a problem with how undesirable AP is as a PvE currency, but Mythic+ could really benefit from shifting its rewards away from the weekly chest and into individual runs. One run a week feels worthwhile (at least, once the week is over, which is another weird element of the reward structure) but subsequent runs have a high likelihood of giving you next to nothing. If we had a stronger PvE currency like valour points then this might not be an issue, but right now Mythic+ dungeons fall far short of their potential when it comes to rewards. In past expansions dungeons have felt rewarding enough to keep me running them all week, but I barely ever do more than one Mythic+ for my weekly chest.

To be fair the timer is not mandatory. You still get credit and rewards even if you fail the most relaxed timer.
As for the rewards: 940 capped may feel a bit meager, but you have to balance his with the fact that this is ungated content. I'd say it is about right.

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M+ is fun, but it's very unbalanced across affixes and classes. Some classes are objectively better than others in high end keys, which is unfortunate. Some effectively can't be used because they don't have enough defensive cooldowns.

And racials. My hope is now that M+ is on the radar, they will hopefully take it into account when balancing things.

[Blackmist]

M+ raids.

Bring down the base difficulty of Mythic, add new mechanics to bosses at certain M+ levels. See how high the top guilds can take it, rather than having the Mythic race only relevant for a week or two each tier.

[Deleted]

M+ raids.

Bring down the base difficulty of Mythic, add new mechanics to bosses at certain M+ levels. See how high the top guilds can take it, rather than having the Mythic race only relevant for a week or two each tier.

It's even harder to balance. As others said, this 5 man version is already unbalanced, some classes are simply incompetent for higher difficulties.

At best I could imagine 5 man raid version for older raids, like timewalking, but with keys that change difficulty. However that would also require revamping of certain fight mechanics that require at least 10 ppl.

[Wondercrab]

To be fair the timer is not mandatory. You still get credit and rewards even if you fail the most relaxed timer.
As for the rewards: 940 capped may feel a bit meager, but you have to balance his with the fact that this is ungated content. I'd say it is about right.

You know what I mean though; the timer is always there and it's always something you want to aim for. Even if you're in a group that isn't too bothered about beating it the pressure is still on to some degree (because why wouldn't you want to at least try?), and that changes the nature of the whole experience. Reward balancing can easily be reworked to make dungeons feel more appealing as well, whether this takes the form of awarding more gear but putting weekly lockouts on Mythic+ dungeons (like we had in WoD), keeping gear drops weaker but awarding a more valuable PvE currency alongside them, or even adding in more crafting, cosmetic, or consumable rewards. There are lots of things you can do to make players feel like they always have something worthwhile to show for their efforts, as the dungeon reward structures in previous expansions have shown.