Star Wars - Where’s the magic gone?

[AtomicSpoon]

I'm sorry your basement Star Wars fan fiction isn't cannon, but you all need to get over it.

If by fan fiction you mean mostly solid content written by sanctioned authors that published physical books and included some very good video games. We aren't talking about tumblr or wordpress stories here.

[Speaknoevil]

The magic is there, you have just because sour, cynical and whatever else- enough to make it look a certain way to you.

[Arrowstormen]

The magic is called youth, and it goes away with age. I think the new movies are plenty "magic". It's a bit weird going from "too much like the A New Hope" to "too different". Some people will clearly never be satisfied, while I know some people really liked Rogue One. I thought it was fine, but easily the worst of the three new movies. Star Wars means something different to different people.

The "SJW is ruining Star Wars" thing is the fucking worst though, but I guess it reaffirms my own opinion when I know a few of the people who hold the opposite belief have the worst reasons.

[Mojo03]

Sorry, nice bait. But you can look it up yourself. If you want. I don't want to look it up for you, you're just a troll who wants things handed to him. Google.com

And to be honest, it's pretty common knowledge, even a lengthy multi-page long discussion about it in the actual star wars thread.

So basically you criticize someone else for talking out their a$$ and then did the exact same thing and acted like "rumors and theories" are truth.

What a joke.

[sarahtasher]

Okay, what part do you struggle to understand in this statement

''In the Star Wars universe, people with the Force (even if they have vaginas, plastic or CGI foreheads, make-up of bright colors/are played by non white actors, are animatronic puppets of green hobbits) will absolutely and positively own soldiers with experience, equipment and overwhelming numbers'' ?

If it's a single Jedi/Sith vs 50 Space SEALs, the outcome is foregone unless the plot specifically call for the Jedi to die (mostly for scenario like ''Hello, I'm Padawan Red Shirt Girl, oh I admire you Anakin, and I even have romantic feeling for you and that's why I'm going to get offed by Grievous/Dooku in two pages ''...to be fair, it's a in universe scheme too)

Crying that Rey is overpowered because of the Force (FTR, a pretty valid point in universe, one of the best chore plot lines of KOTOR 2/The Agent in the Old Republic, but unfortunately butchered in books because it's Brain-Damage-Daala advocating it...) is ridiculous, since Yoda can canonically brutally murder entire detachments of elite troops if they don't have the element of surprise.

And no, FFS, it's not that she lacks training. All lore point out that you don't get better at the Force with 150 Force push-up-powers are largely instinctual and the training is to control yourself.

[Independent voter]

People are really jaded in 2017, when the first movie came out in what 1976? It was all new and exciting. After 40 years it's hard to come up with new and awesome stuff.

Think for a moment, when was the last time you saw or read something new? It's been years since I've seen something new and it was a video game and not a movie.

[Endus]

A forced female character for the sake of having a female character

This is a nonsensical claim. There's nothing about any character in Star Wars where their gender was "forced" to be anything. It's largely irrelevant to the story, for the most part. I have no idea who you even could be referring to, here, since none of the characters in ANY Star Wars film ever did anything that required a penis, unless you count Han impregnating Leia. For every other character in every other circumstance, they could be whatever gender and it wouldn't matter. If the gender of a character makes you question their capacity, that's a problem with you, not the writing.

Poe's stubbornness lost them I think more than half of their fleet right in the beginning. But neither Poe nor Holdo's plan would have succeeded because the First Order was tracking them through light speed, so they couldn't have escaped, anyway. They might have reached Crait, but they would have reached them just the same (and used the same weapon they used on the base destroyed in the beginning of the movie on Crait). The only reason they survived in the end is because Holdo sacrificed herself to destroy the dreadnought at last minute (still making this up, no idea what the ship was called), and Luke played on Kylo's anger and obsession to distract the entirety of their forces while the remaining resistance fighters retreated.

You're forgetting that the cloaking was working perfectly. Until Poe and friends brought in a codebreaker who A> betrayed them, and B> had overheard them talking over open comms about cloaked transports. It's only when Poe's team leaked that intel, via the codebreaker, to the First Order, that the First Order even knew there were transports to look for. Until that point, they thought they were all still on the cruiser; the entire point was the First Order would blow the cruiser, and think they'd killed the Resistance.

The intelligence leak was from Poe's team, and without that, the Resistance escapes to Crait, the First Order doesn't notice, and goes away. It's the half of the transports that got taken out on the flight to Crait, and the loss of Crait as a bastion to rebuild, that is firmly and 100% the fault of Poe and his team. They accomplished nothing save to leak that information to the First Order. That's the point the film is trying to make; that lone wolf bullshit puts not just you but everyone who relies on you at risk.

Ultimately, I think the Poe-Holdo conflict reflects the fact that new world couldn't be won by old ideas, and that's also the growing story of the balance of Dark/Light force with Rey. Holdo came into adulthood serving the Republic as a legislator in the Imperial Senate--her mindset for how war and tactics should work likely came from a world that was obsolete. She tried to run the resistance in Leia's absence without the finesse and give-and-take that Leia did.

Holdo's plan after they discovered they had only one more jump and the Order would track them anyway did not change. She pushed obstinately for Crait and turned away Finn and Poe's new information of the tracker, as well as Poe's proposition to send a small team to take it out. Poe is brash, doesn't plan well, and that's all true, but she ignored good intel and didn't adapt. Her strategy did buy them time, but it also got them stuck.

I need to remind you that Holdo's plan was working in full, until Poe's team leaked critical intelligence to the First Order. She pushed away Poe and Finn's info on the tracker because it didn't matter. She WANTED them to track the cruiser and be sure it didn't get away. She WANTED them to gun it down once the Resistance had fled under cloak, so they'd think they'd killed the Resistance. The tracker wasn't a problem in the first place.

And Poe didn't have any reason to be told any of that. His actions show WHY; he's too brash and can't be trusted with critical intelligence. That's the entire point of the film. You're right that it's talking about "the old ways won't work", but Poe's bullshit lone-wolfing is symbolically tied to Han's, in the original trilogy. THAT is the pattern they're breaking. That trust isn't a bad thing. Poe didn't trust Holdo. And he should have. Her plan would have worked. The ONLY thing that screwed it up, was Poe. He was the source of the leaked intelligence that doomed the plan, all while pursuing a target that didn't need to be pursued.

The second film in a trilogy is almost always a down note. That the flight of the Resistance gets screwed by mistakes by the protagonists is a perfect kind of plot point to include, there. Remember, at the end of ESB, the Rebellion has been chased off their base on Hoth, Han and friends get betrayed at Cloud City, Han gets frozen in carbonite, Luke gets trapped by Vader, gets his hand cut off, and finds out Vader's his dad, barely escaping with his life. It's not going well for the "good guys", just as it isn't in TLJ. And that's fine. It gives them a low point to rise up from in the finale.

I just don't understand this desire to malign Holdo and claim that Poe is awesome and had the right idea. Everything in the film underscores the opposite.

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Where as the new trilogy literally has dialogue like "I'm tired of cocky flyboys! I am a stronk woman and you will listen to me!" "Rich people are evil!"

No, it doesn't.

It has dialogue like "Cocky flyboys who get their squadrons killed with bad decision-making shouldn't question their admirals", with no reference whatsoever to Holdo's gender (and I really don't know why you'd even bring that up; it wasn't remotely a plot point in the film), and "these particular rich people are rich because they're slavers, and slavery is evil", it wasn't a comment on wealth, it was a comment on profiting off the suffering of others.

[I Push Buttons]

No, it doesn't.

It has dialogue like "Cocky flyboys who get their squadrons killed with bad decision-making shouldn't question their admirals", with no reference whatsoever to Holdo's gender (and I really don't know why you'd even bring that up; it wasn't remotely a plot point in the film), and "these particular rich people are rich because they're slavers, and slavery is evil", it wasn't a comment on wealth, it was a comment on profiting off the suffering of others.

So are you saying these women are wrong? That's mighty sexist of you.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...n-bechdel-test

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...isten-to-women

[sarahtasher]

People crying over Rey would have cried way more over Jaina Solo, who have the Force powers of her mommy, the pilot/technical skills of her daddy, who is designated by her uncle as the best Jedi of the new order...

Essentially, she get everything, including a husband that is a future Emperor, while her twin brother get getting captured and tortured by tentacle-friendly aliens.

[Magistrate]

You're forgetting that the cloaking was working perfectly. Until Poe and friends brought in a codebreaker who A> betrayed them, and B> had overheard them talking over open comms about cloaked transports. It's only when Poe's team leaked that intel, via the codebreaker, to the First Order, that the First Order even knew there were transports to look for. Until that point, they thought they were all still on the cruiser; the entire point was the First Order would blow the cruiser, and think they'd killed the Resistance.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. That does pretty much invalidate most of what I said.

The second film in a trilogy is almost always a down note. That the flight of the Resistance gets screwed by mistakes by the protagonists is a perfect kind of plot point to include, there. Remember, at the end of ESB, the Rebellion has been chased off their base on Hoth, Han and friends get betrayed at Cloud City, Han gets frozen in carbonite, Luke gets trapped by Vader, gets his hand cut off, and finds out Vader's his dad, barely escaping with his life. It's not going well for the "good guys", just as it isn't in TLJ. And that's fine. It gives them a low point to rise up from in the finale.

I just don't understand this desire to malign Holdo and claim that Poe is awesome and had the right idea. Everything in the film underscores the opposite.

I didn't want to malign Holdo, just point out that as a good character she had character flaws. One of them, I still believe, was obstinance.

That's the point the film is trying to make; that lone wolf bullshit puts not just you but everyone who relies on you at risk.

In the context of Poe-Holdo, I guess you're right. But I think Rey's story was the opposite. She had defined her entire purpose and self-worth to figuring out who her parents were--admitted that it was the real reason she ever even came to Luke. And then, well, I don't know if I'm looking at this wrong, but it seems like they showed more of the nature of the dark side than I really thought I saw in previous films.

There's that cave scene that's, I don't know, either were there is a lot of "dark force" or the dark side just draws her. The scene seemed to say to me, along with Luke revealing her true reasons for being there and later Kylo's remarks on Rey's actual lineage, that she isn't defined from where or who she came from, and that there is a certain amount of power that comes from just being who you are. And she /does/ act as a sort of lone wolf. And she has a mix of success and failure. Arguably, if she had been more patient, trained, or whatever, maybe she could have handled Snoke, but I don't think it was really all about Snoke, anyway. It was about reaching out to and understanding Kylo, and she now stands on much firmer understanding that she had to gain the hard way.

I think this differs greatly from the similar scene in the cave when Luke was training under Yoda. I seem to remember Yoda saying that the place was suffused with the dark side, but all Luke really did was fight a phantom Vader. In LJ, the implication seems to be defining the dark side as a complimentary, introspective, self-actualizing side of the force. The SW universe has often touted that there must be "balance" in the force, but I don't really remember them ever showing the dark side as something not evil.

Of course, taken to the extreme, that /can/ turn to something awful.

[Shadowferal]

People crying over Rey would have cried way more over Jaina Solo, who have the Force powers of her mommy, the pilot/technical skills of her daddy, who is designated by her uncle as the best Jedi of the new order... Essentially, she get everything, including a husband that is a future Emperor, while her twin brother get getting captured and tortured by tentacle-friendly aliens.

But at least we would have known why Jaina has it all..

Unlike Rey who seems to have it all skillset-wise/Force...for no reason given.
All we get is fanbois excuses.

[Mojo03]

But at least we would have known why Jaina has it all..

Unlike Rey who seems to have it all skillset-wise/Force...for no reason given.
All we get is fanbois excuses.

Not to mention she is invincible and perfect at everything

[sarahtasher]

Not to mention she is invincible and perfect at everything

As opposed to Jaina versus Jacen ?

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That you don't like Rey : okay.

That you don't like Rey and pretend she is a Mary Sue : okay (I would point out again that ''MARY SUE'' cover every single Force user from the OT, the PT, the ST, the comics and the games)

But that you say at the same time that Rey is a Mary Sue ''unlike the EU''...what have you been smoking ? The EU was overfilled with Mary Sues, way lamer than Rey and most of them character assassinated in books of different authors.

Mara Jade, Thrawn and Karrde started as well rounded characters and remained so under Zahn writing. Except Mara Jade, who commit the cardinal sin of being told in a book series that she was as important as Tarkin and Vader and who bones Luke (''my character bones the hero'' is a tell tale sign of bad fanfiction)

I'm refusing to talk about Dark Empire.

Kevin J. Anderson graced us with a collection of fascinating characters, such as Kyp Durron ,the war criminal that is Jedier than Luke and Admiral Daala who sucks more than Imperial movie admirals (it's something). And that was before young Jedi Knights. If you think Luke's jedi school was bad in VIII, you have not seen the teaching methods of the EU one...

The supremely enjoyable and fun X-Wing novels had a fun cast, but HAD to put Corran Horn, whose very first scene is ''I beat the Kobayashi Maru-expy'' and who is of course a fracking force sensitive better than Luke (see a pattern ?)

Then we have Callista (written by a romance writer, and it goes downhill from here), then we have the Mandalorians by Karen Traviss (unreadable drivel, and I actually found that the Crystal Star had at least interesting ideas)

And then we have the entire New Jedi Order, which is make of Jacen the Loser, Anakin the new Luke, Super-Duper-Hyper Mary Sue Jaina, and their whole stable of ''friends'' (which include the niece of Admiral Ackbar and the nephew of Chewbacca and the daughter of that high point of the EU, the planet of sex-crazed force Amazons who tried to make a buck out of Luke)

(I confess for my part that I found Vestera Khai and Tahiri at least interesting)

[Deleted]

Jar jar Abrams and Cryin Johnson killed it. And Disney let them.

[yetgdhfgh]

Star Wars shouldve been left alone but George Lucas just couldnt resist so not only did he fuck up the classic movies with totally unnecessary 'Enhancements' he gave us a terribly boring set of prequels that to me ruined the whole series.

Then when Lucas tried bring the movies back to the cinema and he saw how horribly Phantom Menace bombed when it was re released in 2012 Lucas finally said OK its time to walk away and thus sold it to the Disney who now is putting the final nails into the Star Wars coffin with oversaturation and highly politicized and cynically made tripe.

I admit i have alot of bias for the original films seeing how they was the first movies i ever saw back in the early 80s and i just couldnt get enough of it but now the illusion is gone and iam finished with it but i will still bring out my original VHS box sets and watch them from time to time to remember the magic but anything Disney brings out i aint gonna watch!.

[Growel]

Hey. I’m second gen Star Wars. Episodes 1-3 were my time for Star Wars leading into both Clone Wars series. Once thing I feel Star Wars has lost is the magic feel.

I felt it in Episode 4-6, certainly 1-3, all the clone wars and def incl games like Star Wars the Old Republic (KoTOR & SWTOR) who really did a great job capturing it all. But I must say. I haven’t felt that magic feel in any of the new ones. Not 7, Rogue 1 or 8 altho I really enjoyed Rogue 1 & 8 something feels missing.

One thing I certainly missed was futuristic looking civilisations and worlds and high octane force user action. New films have great story but feel bland and like they are afraid to move on. Did we need 7-9 to be fighting as rebel underdogs again? Had enough of that for SW Rebels and 4-6 did it well enough. It’s also a bit depressing to see nothing changed in the galaxy after Emperors defeat it’s like they just replaced everything like for like and told the same story which while better was like WHY?

Wonder if we have any 3rd gen Star Wars folk where Episode 7,8 and Rogue 1 are your first experiences of Star Wars and you’ve since gone back and watched everything.

PART of the magic is in the novelty. Which wears off. That's how YOUR brain works. It's no one's fault (including not your fault).

For me, Episodes 4,5 and 6 have the MOST magic, but I grew up on them. (I was born in '83, after they were out, but my dad was into them and exposed me to them as a kid.)

By the time Episode 1 was released, I was a teenager and had read dozens of Star Wars novels, on top of seeing the original triology many many times. So Episodes 1, 2, and 3 were far less "magical" for me. (I still enjoyed them, but they don't compare to the originals.)

Your comment about not needing rebel underdogs again? I agree. Again, that's already been done, so the novelty has worn off. I did happen to like Episodes 7 and 8 better than 1, 2, and 3, but they're just better made movies for reasons beyond novelty. (Novelty is important, but not everything.) They did NOT feel "magical" to me. Episode 8 had slightly more magic to me, than 7, because they did some unexpected things (more novelty).

"Good movie" + "novelty" = "Magic feeling" (or something close to that)

[Zequill]

Lol at those talking about over-exposition. No one will ever get tired of good stuff. People get tired of bad stuff. This last star wars was "meh" at best. The visual is great and all, but the story is so downer. So many time it could have raise, it could have gave us a wow moment but nah, it's was down down down, death death death. the movie is way more War then Star. Spoiler from there.

Seriously, 90% if not 95% of the resistance get killed in the movie. There are no backup that have answer their distress signal. The evacuation ship get painfully destroy one by one. After the Order loss one ship, with heavy lost on the resistance side, every other major target get missed. Every time someone is about to destroy a target or succeed in their mission, they miss it at the last second. No major reveal, Rey parents are no body, Snokk get kill before any backstory. The supreme leader die but get replace by Ben.

Those who made those movie have little grasp on the concept of fun...

[dd614]

Lol at those talking about over-exposition. No one will ever get tired of good stuff. People get tired of bad stuff. This last star wars was "meh" at best. The visual is great and all, but the story is so downer. So many time it could have raise, it could have gave us a wow moment but nah, it's was down down down, death death death. the movie is way more War then Star. Spoiler from there.

Seriously, 90% if not 95% of the resistance get killed in the movie. There are no backup that have answer their distress signal. The evacuation ship get painfully destroy one by one. After the Order loss one ship, with heavy lost on the resistance side, every other major target get missed. Every time someone is about to destroy a target or succeed in their mission, they miss it at the last second. No major reveal, Rey parents are no body, Snokk get kill before any backstory. The supreme leader die but get replace by Ben.

Those who made those movie have little grasp on the concept of fun...

Don't fret. Mary Sue Rey will save the day.

[tyrlaan]

With all these regressives screaming "SJW BS", I'm starting to care less and less about shutting down their nonsense and more and more like I will just be happy that they can't handle watching SW movies anymore and I won't have to see their yammering when the next one comes out.

[Deleted]

"Allegorical Nazis are bad, m'kay" is hardly political commentary. If you need to be hand held to the conclusion that Nazis are bad, you are probably a pretty bad person.

Not to mention that everyone, even Disney, has embraced those "Nazis"... Or have you missed decades of people dressing up as Stormtroopers and Vader being the most popular character of the franchise... Disney World literally has shows where kids go up on stage and join the dark side (aka join the allegorical Nazis).

The Empire wasn't made to mirror Nazis as a political statement... It mirrored Nazis because the Empire is evil and Nazis are a model of evil incarnate.



Apart from the "fear causing you to grant unlimited powers to the government to protect you has severe consequences" of the prequels... Not really.

And that in and of itself is hardly political commentary, more like contemporary commentary of 2001-2004. If it was a Democrat in power after 9/11 stuff like the PATRIOT Act would have probably still happened and the same kind of commentary would have happened. So its not like it was "political" in that it portrayed any particular side in a positive or negative light, merely underscored the threat of signing away your rights for protection.

Where as the new trilogy literally has dialogue like "I'm tired of cocky flyboys! I am a stronk woman and you will listen to me!" "Rich people are evil!" Legit no beating around the bush, no subtext... Its not even political commentary really, its political ham-fisting.

Then you have all the interviews and press releases where they talk ad nauseum about the politics they wish to convey with the films.

It's always been an anti-war, anti-authoritarian, liberal narrative of the oppressed fighting for their freedom to be who they want to be.
You're just looking too much into it because you actually WANT to be offended by women. Between 15 years ago and 35 years, YOU as a person have changed. Assuming you're 30. Now you're sitting here, a cynical, bitter person who's worst problem in life is people getting an equal chance at something because it offends you everything's not about you. And yet, it's somehow everyone ELSE that's bad and not you?

Star Wars has never been subtle. It's always been hamfisted. There's never been nuance in Star Wars. It's a space opera for fuck sake. A space opera that over the decades has been streamlined into commercialized garbage to sell more merchandize.
And your biggest problem with it is that you think women take up too much space? I would laugh but I honestly can't get up the energy for it.