Crusader strike in vanilla ( old version) to fix paladin dps/tanking

[Eliessa]

bring back holy nova ultimate with 1 min cd. cant wait.

[Plutarch78]

Making a ret paladin as powerful as a full dps class is absurd.

You think making ret dps as good as a pure dps creates "balance and fairness". It does not. It does the exact opposite.

Hybrid classes sacrifice raw dps for utility. This is what support class do in Vanilla wow.


If hybrid classes were as powerful as pure bred classes, no one would play a pure bred class.. rogues, mages, and warriors are now the unbalanced gimps.

Is...is that you, Jeff Kaplan???

- - - Updated - - -

Are vanilla purists this dogmatic? Holy shit!

[Xecks]

Is...is that you, Jeff Kaplan???

- - - Updated - - -

Are vanilla purists this dogmatic? Holy shit!

heh. the balance that existed in vanilla should be the balance in classic. sorry if youre butthurt over that.

[Deleted]

Making a ret paladin as powerful as a full dps class is absurd.

You think making ret dps as good as a pure dps creates "balance and fairness". It does not. It does the exact opposite.

Hybrid classes sacrifice raw dps for utility. This is what support class do in Vanilla wow.


If hybrid classes were as powerful as pure bred classes, no one would play a pure bred class.. rogues, mages, and warriors are now the unbalanced gimps.

Dafuq? How does this make any sense what you are saying? Have you ever played Vanilla?
The Problem with Hybrid Classes with the exception of Warrior is that they are effectively not hybrid at all in PvE. Their only viable Specc is Healer and they are forced into a pure healer role in Classic, which goes against the intentions of a Hybrid Class. Nobody is asking them to do more DPS than normal classes, just to do enough to be in combination with their buffs and support a viable option for raids.

And strangely none of you every have any issue with the Warrior who was not only the single only viable tank in Raids but also a viable, strong and fully fledged DPS.
Why is it okay when the Warrior, who is already the best Tank in the game, also has the option to go to Raids as a DPS but classes like Paladins, Shamans, Druids or Priests are so bad that they are only playable as healers, therefore being in praxis no Hybrids anymore once you hit max level?

[Xecks]

Dafuq? How does this make any sense what you are saying? Have you ever played Vanilla?
The Problem with Hybrid Classes with the exception of Warrior is that they are effectively not hybrid at all in PvE. Their only viable Specc is Healer and they are forced into a pure healer role in Classic, which goes against the intentions of a Hybrid Class. Nobody is asking them to do more DPS than normal classes, just to do enough to be in combination with their buffs and support a viable option for raids.

And strangely none of you every have any issue with the Warrior who was not only the single only viable tank in Raids but also a viable, strong and fully fledged DPS.
Why is it okay when the Warrior, who is already the best Tank in the game, also has the option to go to Raids as a DPS but classes like Paladins, Shamans, Druids or Priests are so bad that they are only playable as healers, therefore being in praxis no Hybrids anymore once you hit max level?

druid and pally tanks were just fine tanks in dungeons and even off tanks up to bwl in raids.
their dps was horrible but they had the tanking and healing. they were meant to be support by design .

i am saying this though. if it wasnt part of the balance in vanilla it shouldnt be in classic.

[Plutarch78]

heh. the balance that existed in vanilla should be the balance in classic. sorry if youre butthurt over that.

Lol what balance???

[Xecks]

Lol what balance???

just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean it wasnt "balanced" and intended the way it was.

[Deleted]

druid and pally tanks were just fine tanks in dungeons and even off tanks up to bwl in raids.
their dps was horrible but they had the tanking and healing. they were meant to be support by design .

i am saying this though. if it wasnt part of the balance in vanilla it shouldnt be in classic.

Rarely. Their Tank Speccs were already lackluster and their DPS was jsut as bad.

Effectively they were only good as Healers. So you can't call them real Hybrids, they are healers.

I would be okay with Hybrids being useless als DPS in Raids if you would go for the same standarts for everyone and nerf the DPS Specs of Warriors so that they are not viable in PVE. Because Warrior is strangely the one Hybrid Class that is just fine as a DPS in Raids.

And there is no balancing in Classic. Most of the Specs were useless. I think the Warrior was the only class with 3 viable Specs.

[Xecks]

Rarely. Their Tank Speccs were already lackluster and their DPS was jsut as bad.

Effectively they were only good as Healers. So you can't call them real Hybrids, they are healers.

I would be okay with Hybrids being useless als DPS in Raids if you would go for the same standarts for everyone and nerf the DPS Specs of Warriors so that they are not viable in PVE. Because Warrior is strangely the one Hybrid Class that is just fine as a DPS in Raids.

And there is no balancing in Classic. Most of the Specs were useless. I think the Warrior was the only class with 3 viable Specs.

warrior is an outlier to be sure. but thats how it was designed. you could tank in all 3 specs though.

i saw many druid and pally tanks while leveling up and at endgame . you are forgetting something though. druids and pallies and shaman had beast pvp specs and were true hybrids in pvp.

you could say "but warriors" all you want but they were the exception to the rule .

balance existed . just not the balance you wanted.

[Daymanmb]

Technically, it was implemented in the orignial incarnation of the game and removed in 1.1.0, soo for all you purists

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crusader_Strike

[Xecks]

Technically, it was implemented in the orignial incarnation of the game and removed in 1.1.0, soo for all you purists

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Crusader_Strike

but it was removed before live hit. live wasnt 1.0 it was 1.1

[Daymanmb]

but it was removed before live hit. live wasnt 1.0 it was 1.1

Oh /8more

[vindicatorx]

I didnt beg for anything. Also the only one here whining is you my little friend. YOu literally sound like my 2 year old daughter when i take her pacifier "NUR you cant have that!".

Like you have anything to say about it. People on this forum are simply doing what blizzard encouraged them to. Discuss what they want their vanilla experience to be like.

The fact you are raising a child I suppose is more frightening than anything. Since you brought up childish behavior I suppose I need to explain that when some is generalizing, especially someone who doesn't know who you are, when they say "you" or 'you people' They aren't actually saying you specifically did that. I suppose I should also explain what whining is compared to making a logically true statement. I know these concepts are hard for some people to understand. As far as I am concerned, WoW classic is WoW jumping the shark. They are fresh out of ideas and can't think of anything worth a shit to continue to story at all. Which is why you got 2 simultaneous announcements 1) for the lamest most generic expansion to date 2) the one thing they said they would never do, WoW Classic.

[Deleted]

heres something you might find interesting.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-big-questions

Anything jump out at you that you'd forgotten about old school World of Warcraft?

J. Allen Brack: Yeah, I'd forgotten that whenever you buffed one of your party members with Intellect, you had to actually sit down and drink after that. Then you stood up, buffed another party member with Intellect and then you had to drink again. It's a much slower pace. There's a lot of prep time.

It's an interesting part of human memories, right? I think we like to remember the good parts, but the bad parts sometimes go away over time.

Do you think there'll be a line to walk for the team, then? Somewhere between creating that authentic experience that people have asked for, while also figuring out what doesn't make sense anymore? For example, with the Intellect buff, is it important to you that players do need to drink after casting it?

J. Allen Brack: Yes. That's part of the level 60 experience. Our goal is to recreate that classic 1-60 gameplay. Some things changed as time went on, with different patches. How does that get manifested? That's one of the outstanding questions. But yeah, the goal is to recreate that exact experience, for better or for worse.

also,

https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming...sic-interview/

Digital Trends: During the BlizzCon Opening Ceremony you said you want WoW Classic to reproduce the classic WoW experience, but not the launch experience. How do you achieve that balance?

Allen Brack: The “launch experience” is sort of a joke. The launch experience is not a great experience, so we want the gameplay experience to be great, with those 2004-2005 WoW systems, but have it be very stable, server uptime, not have a lot of server queues, right? All the modern conveniences that we have in modern WoW.

So, content-wise, it will be the same?

Brack: Content-wise it will be identical. Now, “identical” has a lot of nuance, [though], because WoW changed a lot in the two years between launch and Burning Crusade. One of the reasons we are talking about this as early as we are is to get the community’s opinions on which way we should go for certain things.


kinda puts a damper on your ideas huh? the only "discussion" is about what patch we want to go with or what mismash of patches we want to go with.

No, no it doesnt. It doesnt put a damper on anything. I'm not asking them to change anything content wise. I'm also not sure why you linked the first piece to me at all.

But hey, thats a long post for absolutely no reason. Good for you

[Super Kami Dende]

Making a ret paladin as powerful as a full dps class is absurd.

You think making ret dps as good as a pure dps creates "balance and fairness". It does not. It does the exact opposite.

Hybrid classes sacrifice raw dps for utility. This is what support class do in Vanilla wow.


If hybrid classes were as powerful as pure bred classes, no one would play a pure bred class.. rogues, mages, and warriors are now the unbalanced gimps.

The funniest part is, people like you spout this shit without realising in Vanilla people chose classes based on what they liked the Theme of. There were plenty of Rogues/Mages back then, just as there is now even with all classes being fairly close.

Classic will never be like Vanilla purely because too many pseudo-elitists are more worried about what is the best rather than what is fun or cool to play which is what Vanilla was.

[Deleted]

The fact you are raising a child I suppose is more frightening than anything. Since you brought up childish behavior I suppose I need to explain that when some is generalizing, especially someone who doesn't know who you are, when they say "you" or 'you people' They aren't actually saying you specifically did that. I suppose I should also explain what whining is compared to making a logically true statement. I know these concepts are hard for some people to understand. As far as I am concerned, WoW classic is WoW jumping the shark. They are fresh out of ideas and can't think of anything worth a shit to continue to story at all. Which is why you got 2 simultaneous announcements 1) for the lamest most generic expansion to date 2) the one thing they said they would never do, WoW Classic.

Ah the "i dont know you but i'm just going to assume you are a bad parent" arguments. Thats nice

You specificly quote me, and then type " You begged for classic, now you're getting it, and now you are whining". It may be a generalization but its aimed directly at me. If you want to make a generalization in the future after having quoted someone then try phrasing it properly.

Its actually quite fun that you with 10k posts are writing this bs because yesterday in another thread i wrote a generalization thats pretty much based on you and your entitlement exactly on people with 10k+ posts.

Also the last part of your posts, you know the part where your emo opinions comes out as facts? Noone cares about your opinions on that matter

[Aggrophobic]

Well i do think vanilla is better then tbc in every way except for class balance and raiding (sadly thats a big part of the game).
So in general i like both in different ways.
I am just suggesting that we include an ability which were intended for vanilla. (I think the striking system for paladin was planned, but something changed it in the last second). If you played an paladin in warcraft 3 and wow beta you were expecting something different then the release paladin.

No. Go play retail.

[Deleted]

No. Go play retail.

No you do that.

Ahhh what a fine discussion we are having here

[Deleted]

I was thinking about giving paladins the old crusader strike. why?
Well if we are going with the 1.12 talents, all paladins except holy paladins are screwed(reck good for pvp).
Like in early vanilla paladin was a great class, able to tank, dps and heal, but as soon as talents got reworked
and aq gear got into the game paladins got really screwed, while all others got buffs paladins basically got nerfed.
Retri lost its reason to be in raid(blessing of kings) and alot of other changes like nerfing of seal of command and seals in general.
Protection paladins got screwed because they increased mana costs of seals and made prot paladins use spell dmg gear instead of warrior gear
(they removed seal of fury and replaced it with Righteous fury (self buff, but only holy dmg)).

Old Crusader strike would solve both of these issues because then you could spam it to trigger seals and gain mana from SoW JoW, so by seal twisting you would get much better game play. (Old crusader strike worked like the one in scarlet monastery)

If you think this will break pvp, well lets compare to shamans main abilities in 1.12.
They have ghost wolf(can be instant with NS)
Slow, FS and earth bind
Ground and silence for 20 mana(earth shock rank 1)
Stormstrike and WF (wf better than seal of command)
Purge

Paladin has
Aura same as shaman totems, just better
Blessings vs wf and str totem
Stun(very strong, but can be resisted)
Bubble
Seals
Blessing of sacrifce and protection (Almost OP, but can be dispelled)
Blessing of freedom (Free action points potion solves this)

You could argue that retri paladins have more mana sustain with heal, but in later patches any class will get you to 50% in a second, even retri vs retri
healing is often not the best move.
(Paladins are very strong in early content and in end game gear, but sucks in between, and 70% of the content is in between)

Basically as paladin is the easiest class to kite and interupt it should hurt when a paladin comes close to you.

Maybe I just love paladin too much and should just roll a shaman and wait for tbc, but i think the old crusader strike would let us have paladin dps all the way to naxx and paladin tanks in until aq40.

Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0
Old paladin spells: https://web.archive.org/web/20050219....cgi?c=Paladin

So, you clearly don't like classic as it is, and don't even want to play it.

Why the thread then?

[Zaeyla]

No thank you I asked to play WoW:Classic not WoW:Classic Remastered Overhauled with TBC+Later expac changes Deluxe Retail Lite Edition, Almost any change you make to an attempted re-release of an older game will very quickly spiral into other changes most of which is class/spec/talent re-balancing.

If you buff Paladins to be equal to warriors in raid tanking you suddenly will no longer have warriors tanks dominating in raids which was in fact how it was in top tier raiding in the old Classic why should it change suddenly for the new Classic thereby ruining the experience?
Furthermore if you buff Paladins to be capable of raid tanking at the same level as warriors you now create a inbalance in favor of the Alliance since Shamans weren't originally intended to tank even if they did had somethings that allowed it to a very limited extent, in doing so you now will need to either buff shamans to be capable of tanking or having some other way to compensate which spirals into even more changes all of which ruin the authentic classic experience by adding and creating specs/classes that just simply didn't exist in Classic WoW.

If you buff one class/talent tree to be more viable you will likely create a inbalance somewhere else where that spec was already viable or even above average for example Ret Paladins while not being great in terms of raid DPS we're very good in PvP and elsewhere, buffing/nerfing classes will likely lead to far more changes then just the ones suggested and will greatly deteriorate the Vanilla game balance, philosophy and game design.

TLDR: Many Class Specs not being viable in all aspects of gameplay was entirely intended by the developers and compensated by being good in other aspects of gameplay, even the slightest of balance changes will spiral into more balance changes on the other side of the spectrum to counteract the change that was made.