Why Arms has so many buttons?

[Deleted]

yeah prune more abilities so classes become more braindead.

[wholol]

Calling stance dancing hard, because making macros is difficult.

FoB/Trauma is certainly an easy rotation, it's quite possibly one of the least engaging specs in the game. Go play FR for awhile, and you'll have a very different opinion though.

How did you reach the conclusion that I meant stance dancing was hard? I'm puzzled by your deduction skills.

Stance dancing was never hard, still was more interactive and enjoyable than the current version of warrior.

[Archimtiros]

How did you reach the conclusion that I meant stance dancing was hard? I'm puzzled by your deduction skills.

Stance dancing was never hard, still was more interactive and enjoyable than the current version of warrior.

Because you framed the statement that way:

"arms is quite possibly one of the easiest rotations in the game, it's a far cry compared to how warrior functioned before.

I feel sorry for the warrior mains who never lived through the stance dancing era"

My deductive reasoning skills are fine. If you didn't mean to imply that "The stance dancing era, in which Arms functioned before it became one of the easiest rotations in the game, was therefore more difficult than now", then you should have phrased your statement better. If they really were intended to be two completely disjointed statements, then they were constructed quite poorly.

Regardless, there was nothing interactive or particularly enjoyable about stance dancing anyway. Pre-MoP, changing stances was no more involved than creating a series of macros to do so automatically, with no thought, strategy, or special gameplay necessary.

Mists at least had some room for optimization, in changing stances to mitigate big hits, or generate extra rage, but that quickly became one of the most selfish playstyles in the game, with players making ridiculous optimizations, such as canceling Fortitude, PW:S, and purposefully standing in damage to get more rage. While you could call that optimization fun, perhaps even engaging, it was obviously negative and therefore removed for very good reason. That said, Defensive Stance still exists for Arms, so if you really found that to be "interactive and enjoyable", there not a whole lot changed from then to now.

[wholol]

Because you framed the statement that way:

"arms is quite possibly one of the easiest rotations in the game, it's a far cry compared to how warrior functioned before.

I feel sorry for the warrior mains who never lived through the stance dancing era"

My deductive reasoning skills are fine. If you didn't mean to imply that "The stance dancing era, in which Arms functioned before it became one of the easiest rotations in the game, was therefore more difficult than now", then you should have phrased your statement better. If they really were intended to be two completely disjointed statements, then they were constructed quite poorly.

Regardless, there was nothing interactive or particularly enjoyable about stance dancing anyway. Pre-MoP, changing stances was no more involved than creating a series of macros to do so automatically, with no thought, strategy, or special gameplay necessary.

Mists at least had some room for optimization, in changing stances to mitigate big hits, or generate extra rage, but that quickly became one of the most selfish playstyles in the game, with players making ridiculous optimizations, such as canceling Fortitude, PW:S, and purposefully standing in damage to get more rage. While you could call that optimization fun, perhaps even engaging, it was obviously negative and therefore removed for very good reason. That said, Defensive Stance still exists for Arms, so if you really found that to be "interactive and enjoyable", there not a whole lot changed from then to now.

Don't write a book about it tbh, Stances existed before and now they don't ( current defensive stance isn't a stance really, it's just passive DR ), stances restricted which abilities you could use and reset rage when stance swapped ( not fully if talented ) , thus naturally it required more thought process than the live version.

Now was it hard ? not really, but at least having to swap stances to use certain abilities was more enjoyable to me than the current iteration and that's what I meant by interactive.

Either way I don't main a warrior , you're all peasants who swing metal around, I much prefer magicks

[Tasandriel]

The answer: Modifiers

Try playing a druid and handle keybindings, if you can do that you can play any class.
Use shift / control / alt + keybinds. Get a mouse that has multiple extra buttons etc.

[Gardoc]

Are you kidding me? Do you take any of your active Talents and PvP Talents? Just log in and check how many buttons you can have as Arms, compared to Furry, Affliction or Vengeance. MW Monk and Holy Priest are two exceptions: they both have even more buttons than Arms.
Obviously you guys just take passive talents, but that's your problem.

Arms: dmg only abilities:
1.Slam
2.Victory rush
3.Mortal strike
4.Execute
5.Colosus Smash
6.Cleave
7.Hamstring
8.Whirlwind
9.Battle cry
10.Bladestorm
11.Charge
12.Heroic Throw
13.Overpower
14.Rend
15.Warbreaker
+ at least two active pvp talents
+ non damaging abilities ( 5 or 6 of them, maybe 7)

Fury:
1.Execute
2.Bloodthirst
3.Furious Slash
4.Rampage
5.Enrage
6.Raging Blow
7.Whirlwind
8.Battle cry
9.Charge
10.Odyn's Fury
11.Heroic throw
All passive talents, because of poor choice of active ones.
Maybe one active pvp talent

Who's trolling now?
I didn't say i want less abilities, i just wanna now how do you bind all of these ...

Still less than I want. I miss heroic strike, revenge, retaliation, shield block, enraged regenaration, shattering throw and many more. Git gud casul.

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Not to burst your rage bubble, but Wrath didn't have any more rotational buttons than we do now. In fact, most specs had less. What you had extra were a whole bunch of superfluous buttons relating to utility, other specs, or simply seldomly used.

The glasses people look through to claim that Wrath was somehow the heyday of nuanced design are extremely rose-tinted.

Rose-tinted goggles are not an argument, I play on WOTLK PVP server everyday. You should realize that classes are not only about rotations. In WOTLK you have to use almost every spell if you want to be good at PVP. And people liked that. Now we have our awesome classes with pruned spellbooks and awesome rotations and PVP is almost dead.

[Deleted]

Im bad so Ive been using this the past 9 years. Ez mode.

[Archimtiros]

Don't write a book about it tbh, Stances existed before and now they don't ( current defensive stance isn't a stance really, it's just passive DR ), stances restricted which abilities you could use and reset rage when stance swapped ( not fully if talented ) , thus naturally it required more thought process than the live version.

No, it didn't, because you made a macro to change stances for you, completely removing thought process from the equation. Since you clearly don't know much about Warrior, let me be more clear: every single ability was a macro with a stance change written in. There's no chance you were ever in the wrong stance, and no chance you ever had to think about which you wanted to be in, it was all handled automatically.

There's your book, keep reading and maybe you'll learn a thing or two before the next time you decide to be ignorant.

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Rose-tinted goggles are not an argument, I play on WOTLK PVP server everyday. You should realize that classes are not only about rotations. In WOTLK you have to use almost every spell if you want to be good at PVP. And people liked that. Now we have our awesome classes with pruned spellbooks and awesome rotations and PVP is almost dead.

I don't agree that PvP is "almost dead", and I use almost every spell when I PvP currently, so what's your problem?

The major difference, aside from various abilities being added/removed over the years, is that more abilities have been consolidated since Wrath (ex: Charge and Intercept).

[Jastall]

Don't write a book about it tbh, Stances existed before and now they don't ( current defensive stance isn't a stance really, it's just passive DR ), stances restricted which abilities you could use and reset rage when stance swapped ( not fully if talented ) , thus naturally it required more thought process than the live version.

Now was it hard ? not really, but at least having to swap stances to use certain abilities was more enjoyable to me than the current iteration and that's what I meant by interactive.

Either way I don't main a warrior , you're all peasants who swing metal around, I much prefer magicks

Nothing was gained from the current two charges of well, Charge being split into Intercept and Charge, it was just an extra hassle between me and what I wanted to do, and was changed for a good reason. I don't remember if it was also in Wrath that Pummel required Zerker stance which was also dumb as that was just a net disadvantage. ''Interactive'' is an empty buzzword as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing interactive in taking 30 seconds to make a stance change macro.

Also I like the cheeky ''I don't care lol'' defense. Nobody forced you to post in the Warrior forum.

[wholol]

Nothing was gained from the current two charges of well, Charge being split into Intercept and Charge, it was just an extra hassle between me and what I wanted to do, and was changed for a good reason. I don't remember if it was also in Wrath that Pummel required Zerker stance which was also dumb as that was just a net disadvantage. ''Interactive'' is an empty buzzword as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing interactive in taking 30 seconds to make a stance change macro.

Also I like the cheeky ''I don't care lol'' defense. Nobody forced you to post in the Warrior forum.

I don't know why everyone's so aggro about what I said ( ironically), it's true stance dance macro's did the work but it was still something , call it flavor or maybe just me with my nostalgic glasses on, who knows, it just feels like the more classes get pruned the less flavor stays in the game.

@Archimtiros

Calm down friend, you seem to have a lot of pent up resentment and anger , you don't have to bash people who have differing opinions.

[Archimtiros]

I don't know why everyone's so aggro about what I said ( ironically), it's true stance dance macro's did the work but it was still something , call it flavor or maybe just me with my nostalgic glasses on, who knows, it just feels like the more classes get pruned the less flavor stays in the game.

Which is not the same as your original argument in that it made things harder, or had some sort of a skill requirement.

Calm down friend, you seem to have a lot of pent up resentment and anger , you don't have to bash people who have differing opinions.

It's not an opinion, it's a factual error. You make a poorly constructed statement, which I pointed out, and then followed it up with another poorly made argument. Don't blame others for your lack of understanding, or try to make the conversation about them. 0/10

[Seramore]

Calm down friend, you seem to have a lot of pent up resentment and anger , you don't have to bash people who have differing opinions.

How is what you're saying an opinion when the thought process behind stance dancing was literally removed by like Archi said, macroing it into every ability?

#showtooltip overpower
/cast [stance:1] overpower; Battle Stance
/startattack

#showtooltip Slam
/cast [stance:3] Slam; Berserker Stance
/startattack

#showtooltip Colossus Smash
/cast [stance:3] Colossus Smash; Berserker Stance
/startattack

#showtooltip Rend
/cast [stance:1] Rend; Battle Stance
/startattack

#showtooltip Mortal Strike
/cast [stance:3] Mortal strike; Berserker Stance
/startattack

Whole lot of thinking with those macros.

[Segus1992]

In Wrath I had somewhere around 50 keybinds.

Great arrogance and pretentiousness aside, in terms of actual PvE rotations, the game hasn't seen many more complex periods than current, and it definitely wouldn't be because of # of keybinds.

I hate the removal of flavour skills as much as the next guy but let's not fellate our nostalgia too much, mkay?

[Jastall]

I don't know why everyone's so aggro about what I said ( ironically), it's true stance dance macro's did the work but it was still something , call it flavor or maybe just me with my nostalgic glasses on, who knows, it just feels like the more classes get pruned the less flavor stays in the game.

@Archimtiros

Calm down friend, you seem to have a lot of pent up resentment and anger , you don't have to bash people who have differing opinions.

You said it made things harder, and Arch did a pretty comprehensive breakdown as to how things didn't much change on that front. I don't see it as everyone aggroing, but if you come in a thread and make such a statement, be ready to back it up because obviously, the warrior forum is going to have some knowledgeable and opinionated people about warrior things.

Honestly, nothing personal, but I wish that kind of thing happened more often. I don't think Blizzard was always right when they pruned by any means (Poor Rogues and Hunters can attest to this more than anyone) but this notion that this game's rotations were ever hard is a myth as far as I'm concerned. Maybe PvP was harder, but IDGAF about it. Rotations in PvE have never been hard, and in terms of engagement Legion has some of the favorite playstyles I've seen such as pre-Antorus Fury, Unholy DK or Resto shamans.

[Paulosio]

I don't main a warrior myself but I do have every single class at 110 and arms is quite possibly one of the easiest rotations in the game, it's a far cry compared to how warrior functioned before.

I feel sorry for the warrior mains who never lived through the stance dancing era.

I think I remember that... It involved me spending a lot of time making macros that automatically put me into the correct stance so that I could use certain abilities when needed. All the gameplay was automated away. Don't imagine there were many manual stance dancers.

[Deleted]

Great arrogance and pretentiousness aside, in terms of actual PvE rotations, the game hasn't seen many more complex periods than current, and it definitely wouldn't be because of # of keybinds.

I hate the removal of flavour skills as much as the next guy but let's not fellate our nostalgia too much, mkay?

I don't really understand the snark comment. It's the truth, and in the discussion it's been made abundantly clear that we were not talking of rotational abilities.
What's your point exactly?

EDIT:
On the whole Wrath then, Legion now argument: the state of the class has little to do with the class alone but the whole metagame. The healthiness of PvP can't be measured on the fact that Rogues can't be brought out of stealth with Demo Shout anymore.

[Gardoc]

No, it didn't, because you made a macro to change stances for you, completely removing thought process from the equation. Since you clearly don't know much about Warrior, let me be more clear: every single ability was a macro with a stance change written in. There's no chance you were ever in the wrong stance, and no chance you ever had to think about which you wanted to be in, it was all handled automatically.

There's your book, keep reading and maybe you'll learn a thing or two before the next time you decide to be ignorant.

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I don't agree that PvP is "almost dead", and I use almost every spell when I PvP currently, so what's your problem?

The major difference, aside from various abilities being added/removed over the years, is that more abilities have been consolidated since Wrath (ex: Charge and Intercept).

You don't have to agree, the numbers speak for themselves. My problem is that they pruned classes so much that there's almost no difference between good and bad player spell-wise. You use all the spells because you only have your builder spender rotation, kick, offensive and defensive CD and some sort of CC. These are the basics. This is what you learn after doing few BGs. I want more than that.

[Seramore]

You don't have to agree, the numbers speak for themselves. My problem is that they pruned classes so much that there's almost no difference between good and bad player spell-wise. You use all the spells because you only have your builder spender rotation, kick, offensive and defensive CD and some sort of CC. These are the basics. This is what you learn after doing few BGs. I want more than that.

I can't fall for the whole pruning thing. It does feel bad to lose some abilities that were really nice to use (I'm looking at you, Intervene), but when was the last time the number of DPS abilities you used really differentiated between a great player and an average player? The expansions as of late has proven that point with how and when people use abilities, not what abilities are used.

PvP is obviously a different story, but even then what I said still mostly holds merit.

[Gardoc]

I can't fall for the whole pruning thing. It does feel bad to lose some abilities that were really nice to use (I'm looking at you, Intervene), but when was the last time the number of DPS abilities you used really differentiated between a great player and an average player? The expansions as of late has proven that point with how and when people use abilities, not what abilities are used.

PvP is obviously a different story, but even then what I said still mostly holds merit.

I should have been more specific. Yes, I'm talking only about PVP. During WOTLK even DPS abilities differentiated between a good player and an average player. Warrior had to manage his rage, you couldn't just dump it with heroic strikes, because other important spells required rage. Or mages and their rank 1 frostbolt for slow or using arcane blast as frost because you got locked in frost. Or even wanding your opponent to death because you are silenced. And the list goes on. I hate when people say that most of the spells were useless. No, you just sucked.

[Deleted]

Now let's not speak out of our asses.

No mage worth a damn ever tried to hardcast an Arcane Blast of all things in my face when locked in Frost.

Wanding me to death? Now that's more likely.
Arcane Missiles to catch a healer that's losing to drink? Just as well.
Or the amp magic mindgame in a spellsteal duel.

But come on. Arcane blast?