USA should be stricter on crime like Singapore

[Elegiac]

Saying to give them money or they commit crime is blackmail, by definition. It's not incentive.

Cool story. That's not what we're discussing.

Go check a dictionary.

I am so glad that complex concepts like poverty and crime can be reduced to simple dictionary definitions.

Oh wait, they can't.

You are the one complaining that I support corporal punishment. That they're pieces of shit that do not respect other peoples property is enough for me. It's up to them to behave, not for me to change their behaviour. They are responsible for their own lives and conduct, if they want to throw away their freedom then they can do so but that's no fault of mine nor the state, it's their own fault, through their own choices.

As said, the onus is on you to provide substantiation for your position. Otherwise it's just empty words.

[Freighter]

As said, the onus is on you to provide substantiation for your position. Otherwise it's just empty words.

I support corporal punishment. That's the substantiation. I don't really know why this is so hard for you to understand.

[Elegiac]

I support corporal punishment. That's the substantiation. I don't really know why this is so hard for you to understand.

That isn't substantiation. You're stating an opinion that has absolutely no backing or substance.

Would you prefer if I just called your opinion shallow.

[Freighter]

That isn't substantiation.

substantiate
verb (used with object), substantiated, substantiating.
to establish by proof or competent evidence:

So me saying that I support corporal punishment is not substantiation because you don't believe me? What a joke.

[Elegiac]

So me saying that I support corporal punishment is not substantiation because you don't believe me? What a joke.

Oh look, dictionary definitions.

Suddenly I understand the preference for semantic arguments, lol.

[Freighter]

Oh look, dictionary definitions.

Suddenly I understand the preference for semantic arguments, lol.

You are asking me to provide proof for my support of corporal punishment. Which is fucking absurd.

[Elegiac]

You are asking me to provide proof for my support of corporal punishment. Which is fucking absurd.

I'm asking you to substantiate your argument that corporal punishment is a valid punishment for nonviolent crimes. Which...you haven't.

[Freighter]

I'm asking you to substantiate your argument that corporal punishment is a valid punishment for nonviolent crimes. Which...you haven't.

If a country wants to cut the hands off people who engage in theft that's a valid punishment in that country. Same goes for corporal punishment in Singapore. Just because you don't like the penalties doesn't make them not valid.

[Elegiac]

If a country wants to cut the hands off people who engage in theft that's a valid punishment in that country. Same goes for corporal punishment in Singapore. Just because you don't like the penalties doesn't make them not valid.

I'd ask you to defend it but you'll probably just post another dictionary definition of the word 'valid'. Lol.

[Freighter]

I'd ask you to defend it but you'll probably just post another dictionary definition of the word 'valid'. Lol.

I already have, it's a deterrent.

[shadowmouse]

it's a deterrent

It is promoted as a deterrent, those who already would not commit a crime may feel it is a deterrent, but when examined critically is there evidence that it is more effective as a deterrent than a fine, rehabilitative training, social disapproval, or confinement? In other words, is it actually a deterrent, or is it one of those "well everyone knows" things? As an additional complication, is it so effective as a deterrent (assuming it is one at all) that the positives outweigh the negatives?

[Flarelaine]

Singapore should not be anyone's model for anything.

Sorry, Singapore.

They rank very high in education (and generally, Human Development) rankings. Somewhat closer to the thread's topic, they rank right up there with Scandinavia on the Corruption Perception Index.

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If you want to reduce crime then you need to reduce poverty.

Which Singapore is also doing. They are #3 in PPP-adjusted GDP per capita rankings compiled by IMF and the World Bank.

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It's not illegal to be naked in your home. It's illegal to expose yourself to public view from your home.

So basically any room that has a window. Which in most abodes is every room. So yes it's illegal to be naked in your own home which is a stupid fucked up law to "protect."

There's this new thing called "curtains".

[Mormolyce]

They rank very high in education (and generally, Human Development) rankings. Somewhat closer to the thread's topic, they rank right up there with Scandinavia on the Corruption Perception Index.

I mean, there are worse places in the world sure, but its ranking for eg, human rights is nothing to brag about.

Over here it's mostly known as the kind of place where you go to get cheap shit that "fell off the back of a truck".

[Flarelaine]

I mean, there are worse places in the world sure, but its ranking for eg, human rights is nothing to brag about.

Over here it's mostly known as the kind of place where you go to get cheap shit that "fell off the back of a truck".

Agreed, they do not share the Western view on human rights. I just pointed out that there are still things they do right. I especially envy their focus on education in times when my own government seems hellbent on wrecking education completely.

[Mormolyce]

Agreed, they do not share the Western view on human rights. I just pointed out that there are still things they do right. I especially envy their focus on education in times when my own government seems hellbent on wrecking education completely.

Okay I'll concede that maybe it can be someone's model for something, just not in this case, its attitude to crime.

[Freighter]

It is promoted as a deterrent, those who already would not commit a crime may feel it is a deterrent, but when examined critically is there evidence that it is more effective as a deterrent than a fine, rehabilitative training, social disapproval, or confinement? In other words, is it actually a deterrent, or is it one of those "well everyone knows" things?

It serves both as physical punishment and psychological in form of humiliation. You're not just sentenced to caning, it's an additional penalty on top of the prison sentence. It is part of the reason for the low crime rate so, yes.

To those who don't care about any penalties? No, no penalty is effective on them but it does serve as a deterrent for people who could have second thoughts about committing a crime when they think about what penalty they might receive when caught.

As an additional complication, is it so effective as a deterrent (assuming it is one at all) that the positives outweigh the negatives?

In my opinion? Yes. People who think the justice system should only be about rehabilitation might think otherwise though. I think the justice system should be about making sure victims get justice, which includes punishing offenders for their wrongdoing to the victim(s) and the punishments also act as a deterrent to future criminals who would think about committing similar crimes. You also should have a rehabilitation program on top of that but you shouldn't let people off without proper punishment for their wrongdoings.

It's certainly not having any negative effects on Singapore at least.

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I mean, there are worse places in the world sure, but its ranking for eg, human rights is nothing to brag about.

Over here it's mostly known as the kind of place where you go to get cheap shit that "fell off the back of a truck".

Human rights are a pretty bullshit concept for several reasons. Used as leverage against those politicians don't like but then they often ignore them when it suits them themselves.

Human rights violations going on in Myanmar, sanctions were imposed but then Obama lifts them in the midst of an ongoing genocide? Doesn't really make me think he values human rights that much.

There's not even agreement among the countries in the world in what should and shouldn't be a human right.

Lack of enforceability is the major reason why they're bullshit though.

[Machismo]

Fixed that for ya....

Both sentences would be true. I have no illusions that both sides are basically the same, how about you? DO you think both comments would be accurate, or are you still in denial?

[Mormolyce]

Human rights are a pretty bullshit concept for several reasons.

Goooooooonna have to stop you right there.

[Freighter]

Goooooooonna have to stop you right there.

As if you could ever make any country adhere to human rights when they don't want to.

[Macaquerie]

Agreed, they do not share the Western view on human rights. I just pointed out that there are still things they do right. I especially envy their focus on education in times when my own government seems hellbent on wrecking education completely.

Well to the extent that Singapore's system works, it works because it's a small country where the government can afford to micromanage every aspect of life, something that wouldn't work even in a moderately sized European country, nevermind the USA. A lot of dictators have cited Singapore to justify their own authoritarian policies, but somehow they never managed to replicate that success at home.