Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Travace]

Well I didn't fully and completely research my answer before voting.

I like having mechanical pets and a gun on my hunter but I dont like that all those pets are melee.
I like how warlocks have the imp and doom guard stand back with them and fire spells at a range.

All I'm asking for in a Tinker class is, give me a gun, and let me drop turrets or have turret bots follow me around so that I can stand back and bombard enemies.

[Ielenia]

Well let's take a look shall we?

You don't see a difference there?

You're comparing Unit-to-Class to Unit-to-Profession. Of course there would be differences. I've also noticed you omitted the class abilities that have different names and/or icons and/or functionalities from that list, too.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=19957/bloodmaul-brewmaster

Ok, you do know you're stretching farther than Mr Fantastic ever could for that, right? Let's look at the facts: one, it's been known that ogres like and produce alcoholic drinks for a very long time (since vanilla, I think), and we know that alcoholic drinks give you a haze. So if ogres produce beer, of course they'll have "brewmasters". That name, though, denotes their skill with brewing, not the kind of skill the Pandaren Brewmaster has. And since we know that beer gives you a haze, being force-fed strong beer of course would give you a 'drunken haze'.

TL;DR: to say the ogre brewmasters were "the representative of the WC3 Pandaren Brewmaster" is not just reaching, it's downright dishonest.

I'm simply saying its not a 1:1 translation if the duration, cast time, and CD are different.

So you are picking and choosing. All you had to do was say 'yes'.

Yeah, you're avoiding.

... I think you and I have different definitions of 'avoiding'. For you, it seems 'avoiding' means 'addressing your points but I'll pretend he's not'. I've addressed all your points.

All Tinkerers are engineers, but not all engineers are Tinkerers.

Source? Other than your headcanon and arbitrary rules, of course.

[Gaarashatan]

bbbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddddddddddd

[Teriz]

You're comparing Unit-to-Class to Unit-to-Profession. Of course there would be differences.

Then why are there actual abilities in WoW that are named for the Tinker and Alchemist hero abilities and do what the hero abilities in WC3 actually did? The fact that Cluster Rocket and Healing Spray are abilities in the game and not profession items contradicts your argument.

I've also noticed you omitted the class abilities that have different names and/or icons and/or functionalities from that list, too.

Such as?

Ok, you do know you're stretching farther than Mr Fantastic ever could for that, right? Let's look at the facts: one, it's been known that ogres like and produce alcoholic drinks for a very long time (since vanilla, I think), and we know that alcoholic drinks give you a haze. So if ogres produce beer, of course they'll have "brewmasters". That name, though, denotes their skill with brewing, not the kind of skill the Pandaren Brewmaster has. And since we know that beer gives you a haze, being force-fed strong beer of course would give you a 'drunken haze'.

TL;DR: to say the ogre brewmasters were "the representative of the WC3 Pandaren Brewmaster" is not just reaching, it's downright dishonest.

Yeah, you missed the point here. I said that before MoP the Brewmaster's abilities were completely absent in the class lineup, and only existed in WoW as random NPC abilities. Some said that Brewmaster already existed in the game as part of the cooking profession because you could already craft alcoholic brews.

Sound familiar? It should.

So you are picking and choosing. All you had to do was say 'yes'.

Wouldn't a 1:1 translation mean that all attributes are the same?

.. I think you and I have different definitions of 'avoiding'. For you, it seems 'avoiding' means 'addressing your points but I'll pretend he's not'. I've addressed all your points.

You repeating that I desire 1:1 translation of WC3 abilities when I've said numerous times that I simply want the same translations that all WC3 abilities have undergone is you "avoiding".

[Ielenia]

Then why are there actual abilities in WoW that are named for the Tinker and Alchemist hero abilities and do what the hero abilities in WC3 actually did? The fact that Cluster Rocket and Healing Spray are abilities in the game and not profession items contradicts your argument.

Not really. What Blizzard do for NPCs are irrelevant. What matters is what they do for the players. And the engineering and alchemy profession is the translation of the tinker and alchemist for the players.

Such as?

Army of the Dead, for one.

Yeah, you missed the point here. I said that before MoP the Brewmaster's abilities were completely absent in the class lineup, and only existed in WoW as random NPC abilities.

What Blizzard makes for NPCs is irrelevant in terms of class representation.

Some said that Brewmaster already existed in the game as part of the cooking profession because you could already craft alcoholic brews.

I call BS on that. I've been in this forum since 2009 and the official forums and I have never seen anything like it. Put your money where your mouth is (proverbially speaking) and show some source.

You repeating that I desire 1:1 translation of WC3 abilities when I've said numerous times that I simply want the same translations that all WC3 abilities have undergone is you "avoiding".

Except you're not getting them because a translation into a profession is obviously not the same as a translation to a class.

[Teriz]

Not really. What Blizzard do for NPCs are irrelevant. What matters is what they do for the players.

Is that why Metamorphosis and Drunken Haze made its first appearance in WoW as NPC abilities?

And the engineering and alchemy profession is the translation of the tinker and alchemist for the players.

Hard to believe when none of the abilities appear in either profession.

Army of the Dead, for one.

Already shown to not come from WC3. Try again.

What Blizzard makes for NPCs is irrelevant in terms of class representation.

Is that why Metamorphosis and Drunken Haze made its first appearance in WoW as an NPC abilities?

I call BS on that. I've been in this forum since 2009 and the official forums and I have never seen anything like it. Put your money where your mouth is (proverbially speaking) and show some source.

Yeah I'm not digging through 10 years of posts to find that. The argument you're using here can be used on the Brewmaster, since drinking alcoholic brews exists in a profession.

Except you're not getting them because a translation into a profession is obviously not the same as a translation to a class.

Except they've already been translated that way via NPC abilities....

Just like metamorphosis and drunken haze before them.

[Ielenia]

Is that why Metamorphosis and Drunken Haze made its first appearance in WoW as NPC abilities?

It begs the question: what's the relevance?

Hard to believe when none of the abilities appear in either profession.

Sure, keep telling yourself that. Denial is not a river in Egypt, by the way.

Already shown to not come from WC3. Try again.

No, you denied the link. That is not the same. The skill still clearly comes from WC3.

Is that why Metamorphosis and Drunken Haze made its first appearance in WoW as an NPC abilities?

I repeat my question: what's the relevance that they appeared on NPCs first?

Yeah I'm not digging through 10 years of posts to find that.

Then don't say bullshit you're not willing to back up.

The argument you're using here can be used on the Brewmaster, since drinking alcoholic brews exists in a profession.

If we're talking about a character based solely on beers and alcohol, maybe. But the monk class' core concept is not beer. It's martial arts.

Except they've already been translated that way via NPC abilities....

NPCs are not classes.

[Elestia]

I'm not voting because NEITHER.

[Zyky]

Oh, and sorry, there is no "neither" option in this poll.

Then I'll just flat out say neither and not vote.

[Teriz]

It begs the question: what's the relevance?

That WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes.

Sure, keep telling yourself that. Denial is not a river in Egypt, by the way.

Just going on the evidence bud. For exampke, the WC3 ability Healing Spray is translated into WoW as.....

Healing Spray.

Just like every other WC3 ability translated to WoW.

No, you denied the link. That is not the same. The skill still clearly comes from WC3.

How when it shares almost nothing in common with any WC3 ability?

I repeat my question: what's the relevance that they appeared on NPCs first?

That WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes.

If we're talking about a character based solely on beers and alcohol, maybe. But the monk class' core concept is not beer. It's martial arts

I said Brewmaster, not the Monk.

NPCs are not classes.

I never said they were.

[Deleted]

Dragonsworn.
Tank- Earth Warden(Black flight)
Heal- Lifebinder(Red/Green flight)
RDps- Chronomancer (Blue/Bronze flight)

While that sounds cool, Dragons are a race, not a class. Is there anything in lore about other races taking dragon powers? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Ielenia]

That WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes.

So what if there were WC3 abilities in WoW? What's the relevance?

Just going on denying the evidence bud.

Fixed that for you.

That WC3 hero abilities have entered WoW via NPCs before being placed in classes.

Other than its entire concept of raising several corpses to fight for you. Y'know, the ability's whole concept? Just the more important part...

I said Brewmaster, not the Monk.

Regardless. No one would even think that because that's a reach farther than the moon. It's just a ogre that makes beer, not even close to being the WC3 hero unit. They basically only got the name in similarity.

I never said they were.

And that makes your point of "abilities on NPCs" irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Tinker

Race restrictions: Gnome, Dwarf, Goblin and Undead.
Armour: Mail
Weapons: Guns, 1h hammers, 2h hammers, shields.
Stat: Agility/Intellect
Specs:
Melee Tank: Mechgineer - Uses a mech suite (shapeshift form) to weather attacks and a thrust pack to move fast across the battlefield. They use sawblades, flamethrowers and gun slugs to attack and barriers for extra defence.

Ranged DPS: Sapper - Uses a gun from range while setting up explosive traps, gun turrets and rockets to bombard enemies from afar. Also uses fold able jetpack to reposition self and stealth gadgets to stay hidden.

Ranged Healer: Biochemist- Uses a gun from range while utilising darts, bio beams and chemist bombs to heal allies. Attacks with electrified netting and tazers for CC. Can use a gyro copter cooldown to escape all damage while hovering in the air.

I like your ideas. Very much what i had in mind, plus healing bots for the biochemist. It's something we've seen raid bosses use (that one in Nighthold for example). It would make an amazing raid wide CD.
Ah, i see no point for 2h hammer aswell. I think both the tank and healer variant are good with maces and shield. Mekkatorque pilots the mech and uses a mace and shield. Only the dps variant would have to use guns. But even in that case they could just unify their mace and shield to make a rifle. That would be pretty cool.

- - - Updated - - -

tinkering is just another name for engineering.

Go back to school.

[Typhoria]

While that sounds cool, Dragons are a race, not a class. Is there anything in lore about other races taking dragon powers? Doesn't make much sense to me.

They wouldn't be a race. They would be mortal races that were trained and empowered by the aspects.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonsworn

[Teriz]

So what if there were WC3 abilities in WoW? What's the relevance?

WC3 hero abilities either go into the class lineup or into NPCs if the classes aren't available. They have never gone into the professions. Considering that Cluster Rockets and Healing Spray are currently NPC abilities shows that the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities were not translated to the professions. It also shows that the Tinker is in roughly the same spot the Brewmaster was in before its eventual class introduction.

Other than its entire concept of raising several corpses to fight for you. Y'know, the ability's whole concept? Just the more important part...

Are you trying to argue that Army of the Dead comes from Animate Dead? Animate Dead only raises 6 undead minions. 6 is not "several", and it certainly isn't an "army".

I suppose you don't have anymore?

Regardless. No one would even think that because that's a reach farther than the moon.

You mean like certain people saying that Goblin Bomb Dispenser is the same as Pocket Factory?

It's just a ogre that makes beer, not even close to being the WC3 hero unit. They basically only got the name in similarity.

I was talking about the Drunken Haze ability, not the Ogre.

And that makes your point of "abilities on NPCs" irrelevant.

Already discussed above.

[Deleted]

So... the thing with Tinkers is that the ideas flow really easily. They can fill any of the 3 archtypes and theres loads to pull from in the theme of technology already in the game.
How to fit it in the game is where there are some challenges. The expansion of Gadgetzan and the blingtron war in an Underground expansion could be a fitting setting. Battle would have fit aswell with the war theme, but that boat has presumably sailed.

Necromancer has a problem. What specs would it have? Ranger and melee DPS? The abilities would have to draw heavily from existing ones. Possible? If blizzard really wants to make them, sure. But i think that it's the time for a more non-edgy dark class next, like the monk. After that, if a wrath 2 happens, it could fit.

The bard is the one i think has no hope. There can't be a buff based class added to the game as it would upset the balance and be mandatory in every group. If the buffs are in line with other classes, then there isn't anything really special about them.
The other problem is ETC. In heroes ETC is a warrior, let's be honest. He is heavily themed to a Tauren, and i don't see how it would fit the alliance.
Finally, what specs would they bring? We know tank sort of works based on ETC in heroes, though as mentioned, he is pretty much a warrior, would we have ranged DPS? With what weapons? What would fit? Music damage? I dunno, it doesn't flow. I really don't know how it could work, but feel free to extrapolate/think it up.

[Ielenia]

WC3 hero abilities either go into the class lineup or into NPCs if the classes aren't available. They have never gone into the professions.

Other than the alchemist and tinker abilities. There are also several abilities in the game that have not been translated into the game, either. Again, you keep saying abilities were "only translated into NPC or classes" yet ignoring all the translation of the tinker and alchemist into the two respective professions.

Are you trying to argue that Army of the Dead comes from Animate Dead?

Yes, I do.

Animate Dead only raises 6 undead minions. 6 is not "several", and it certainly isn't an "army".

And there we go, demanding 1:1 translation...

You mean like certain people saying that Goblin Bomb Dispenser is the same as Pocket Factory?

Functionality, concept and theme are the same. A technological construct that creates walking bombs that home in on a target.

I was talking about the Drunken Haze ability, not the Ogre.

Irrelevant. Same thing. It's expected that a NPC who is a "master of ale" to have an ability that incites a drunken haze on their opponents. "Ale" is not the sole domain of the Pandaren Brewmaster.

[Darktbs]

While that sounds cool, Dragons are a race, not a class. Is there anything in lore about other races taking dragon powers? Doesn't make much sense to me.

There was in the RPG, which is no longer cannon, but, it doesn't stop people from wanting a dragon themed class nonetheless.

[Deleted]

They wouldn't be a race. They would be mortal races that were trained and empowered by the aspects.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonsworn

Traditionally, the most well known dragonsworn are druids in service of Ysera; that is not to say that all druids who walked the Emerald Dream were chosen serve the green dragonflight, but many were taken into Ysera’s service in the thousands of years they slept. Most of the typical servants of each flight have an occupation that matches the interests of the flight: Blue dragons favor talented magi, but a trustworthy priest or paladin might also gain their interest. Of course, some people are chosen simply for their dedication — while the bronze dragonflight may not have any particular tie to a warrior, he might impress with his strength and loyalty. All potential dragonsworn show some magical proclivity, though.

This is the only problem i see. seems like Druids, mages and warriors are already "it" in some form.

But it's the best idea i've heard after tinkers, and could potencially fit a time travel expansion to the pre-sundering era, where we would be able to recruit them.
It's a strong option if blizzard wishes it. It has plenty of ideas to draw from in the red, bronze and black dragonflights.

[Apellosine]

I like your ideas. Very much what i had in mind, plus healing bots for the biochemist. It's something we've seen raid bosses use (that one in Nighthold for example). It would make an amazing raid wide CD.
Ah, i see no point for 2h hammer aswell. I think both the tank and healer variant are good with maces and shield. Mekkatorque pilots the mech and uses a mace and shield. Only the dps variant would have to use guns. But even in that case they could just unify their mace and shield to make a rifle. That would be pretty cool.

I would leave the tanking options as being hammers and shields. Having the Healer using a gun is a fun idea visually, shooting healing darts at people like Ana from Overwatch. Having the hard heals (Flash of Light/Shadow Mend style) be quick 1-2 second hots (say 4 ticks) adds a level of difference from other healers that adds a smoother scaling with crit for example.