Battle for Lordaeron Lore [spoilers]

[Syegfryed]

he probably stopped caring about such things thousands of years ago (cause he got that timey wimey business to smash the legion)[/quote i don't think so, his dialogues are way different than that, and he sided with the allianc ein the war, sure he not stooped caring about.

i don't think he stop cared, he allied with he aliance clearly show he not stop, he probably is a bigot light praising and would be horrified if he see what happened with the kingdom he fight for, he will be scarlet crusade 2.0

technically, Turalyon has as much claim to Lordaeron as Sylvanas... I'd wager LESS since she effectively took over a conquered city that was vacated by it's residents.

now you are just forcing, he have way more claim than her most because he is a citizen of lordaeron and a high member of the alliance

[Magnagarde]

No where does it say that "They," all of the council, is against her or her goals, nor does it say that suddenly all the Forsaken are turning against her/ were afraid of her etc. Obviously with the argument you are trying to push, you'll glance over it, or ignore it entirely.

I said they do not want immortality. You said it wasn't true. I proved you it is true and that many, among the "not all", harbor reservations towards the goals she had set.

You've been proven to not have actually read it at all and are now moving goalposts. If you haven't read something or perhaps can't remember things, then you could at least look it up prior to commenting or at least not continue making the same claims.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I said they do not want immortality. You said it wasn't true. I proved you it is true and that many, among the "not all", harbor reservations.

You've been proven to not have actually read it at all and are now moving goalposts.

You used "They" trying to once again, push your own version of the story. You're wording was an attempt to make it sound as if every council member was against her.

Although I must admit, you trying to move the goalposts by now accusing others of doing it is something I didn't think I would see, even from you.

So aside from re-stating exactly what I had said originally,what did you think you did?


You accusing others of not reading though? Fucking hilarious.

[mickybrighteyes]

now you are just forcing, he have way more claim than her most because he was a citizen of lordaeron and a high member of the alliance

What... the city was lost to the Scourge... then the Nathrezim got it... and she took it from the Nathrezim with the aide of Garithos. The city's been sacked and taken over more than once since the Alliance of Lordaeron's fall. I'd say someone conquering a kingdom and instating their own leadership in an area does get more claim than some noble from a fallen nation who was part of a house NOT from the bloodline of a king.

I think our real world idea of possession can be used just as effectively here. She's currently sitting as the ruler and has forces to hold it. Makes for a better claim than "My family lived there once and I wasn't a peasant".... That's sort of what "but he's from a noble family of lordaeron" is.

[Syegfryed]

..I actually don't know how the house of nobles works in this regard and whether or not he has a legit claim to the throne. There are other living nobles iirc so I'm not sure how it works. What happens if the Forsaken raise someone with an even greater claim to the throne? idk.

.

by logic, the person with the high rank in the noble and military area of lordaeron, can claim the leadership, all legit. If there is no king, the most high rank noble would rise as king, regent or ruler. Just like it happened with Garithos, he was the guy with most rank and took the leadership

This could be valid to both forsaken and living, With the princess saying she don't care anymore, the leadership should be to the nest high rank noble.

of course, all hypothetical, but at least i can see Turalyon in this way, and would not say he is all wrong.

[Magnagarde]

You used "They" trying to once again, push your own version of the story. You're wording was an attempt to make it sound as if every council member was against her.

Although I must admit, you trying to move the goalposts by now accusing others of doing it is something I didn't think I would see, even from you.

So aside from re-stating exactly what I had said originally,what did you think you did?


You accusing others of not reading though? Fucking hilarious.

How does saying "they" and then quoting a paragraph which says "many", clearly relating the two with eachother, mean all? What you think as to what I intended to say is different from what I actually said. They clearly addresses those who disagree.

[ello]

The ones she didn't kill, yes. There were living who liberated Lordaeron, who were then killed off by her so there's nobody that can contend with her.

Killing off the living and retaining the zealous ones and the ones that fear her can hardly be called a justifiable claim.

Nothing you'be said changes the fact that the majority of Lordaeronians are now Forsaken and named Sylvanas their leader. And Garithos is dead, I don't know why you keep bringing him up.

by logic, the person with the high rank in the noble and military area of lordaeron, can claim the leadership, all legit. If there is no king, the most high rank noble would rise as king, regent or ruler. Just like it happened with Garithos, he was the guy with most rank and took the leadership

This could be valid to both forsaken and living, With the princess saying she don't care anymore, the leadership should be to the nest high rank noble.

of course, all hypothetical, but at least i can see Turalyon in this way, and would not say he is all wrong.

Yeah, but it's all irrelevant at the end of the day, no? There is no multilateral body to verify such a claim.

[Syegfryed]

I'd say someone conquering a kingdom and instating their own leadership in an area does get more claim than some noble from a fallen nation who was part of a house NOT from the bloodline of a king.

she has the right of conqueror, i have no problem with that, but then say the forsakens are the "rightfull owners" because they conquered too, not because it belong to then in life, cause with this argument would make Turalyon legit to claim the land as well.

[Magnagarde]

Nothing you'be said changes the fact that the majority of Lordaeronians are now Forsaken and named Sylvanas their leader. And Garithos is dead, I don't know why you keep bringing him up.

Because the way she created a majority that supports her invalidates her claim. It is a claim based on killing of those who had a claim, but were murdered because they wouldn't want her.

[ThePallyRanger]

Well, yeah, there's that. Though I'd argue this isn't the result of the Blight like some people claim, because the scenario stages indicate that the Blight is deployed before the Alliance breaches the walls and that later on the Horde retreats deeper into the city (so it's likely the Blight is launched over the wall to thin the ranks of the Alliance), but Alliance trashing the place to prevent the Horde from getting a fortified position right after the Alliance is forced to retreat.

But I'd say the lack of momentum still applies. They have no bases in the region, they arrived by sea so their resources are limited, the land is a plagued wasteland that offers no viable resources for a living army to forage, capturing other Horde outpost means more fighting (with a potential of getting caught in a clench by the Horde army from Undercity). Rushing to an empty fortress in order to consolidate your forces and prepare for reinforcements (especially since by controlling Stromgarde land reinforcements via Thandol Span actually become feasible; hell, securing Thandol Span route in itself is extremely beneficial for the Alliance) is the most logical option.

Getting there across all of Lordaeron is slightly less logical, but then again so is the idea of Alliance managing to successfully siege Undercity with an army they transported by sea without any stronghold in the region. Sea landing right in the seat of power of your enemy is fucking idiotic. There's a reason why allies landed in Normandy and not Schleswig-Holstein. Hell, the idea that Alliance fleet managed to even reach the shore unopposed when in the past they lost pretty much all naval fights against both Forsaken and Horde in general is already stupid as hell.

As for WPL, the part controlled by the Crusade is the one further away from Tirisfal. The Alliance would still have to at least pass Andorhal on their way there. And what does Crusader part of the WPL even give them? Trying to make base there would be huge infringement on not only the Crusade's neutrality, but their rights in general.

Yep. You make good points. Though when I mentioned the Argent Crusade, I was just nitpicking your comment. You said WPL was under Forsaken control, which is mostly true, but not completely. :-P I didn't mean the Argent Crusade would get involved or anything. All good though.

[Jastall]

What does it matter to you what others enjoy? You do understand Blizzard writes the story, not Alliance players right?

It's a bit of both, really. Blizzard writes these stupid faction war plots at least in part because some people can't get enough of the red vs blue posturing.

Myself I really don't see why the Horde and Alliance have to either be BFFs singing Kumbaya together, or kill each other until nobody's left out of pure hatred and resentment. I liked the dynamic we had in Vanilla/BC, where there was a cold war between the factions that heat up in specific locations without dragging the entire faction into a wasteful all-out war. But in BfA everyone's out for blood because of magic rocks and muh faction pride, and we just know that halfway through the Real Threattm will show itself and the factions will still cooperate anyway just like in Cata and Mists and the war won't actually be resolved because Blizzard is never going to destroy, or significantly and permanently weaken a faction.

I'm also annoyed when some say the faction conflict if the ''pillar'' of WoW. It was almost completely absent in WC3, Vanilla, BC, Wrath, WoD and Legion save, again, for local conflicts. More than half of Warcraft's iterations had almost nothing to do with Horde vs Alliance, yet suddenly it's some sort of theme that must come up again and again?

There are several works of fiction that make believable, interesting faction conflicts, with believable motivations and characters I care about. Blizzard trying to make me care about the boy-king and miss zombie 2018 fighting over magic rocks and dragging everyone else along with them? That's one hell of an uphill battle.

[Magnagarde]

she has the right of conqueror, i have no problem with that, but then say the forsakens are the "rightfull owners" because they conquered too, not because it belong to then in life, cause with this argument would make Turalyon legit to claim the land as well.

Exactly.

10char

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, but it's all irrelevant at the end of the day, no? There is no multilateral body to verify such a claim.

sure, only if blizzard say something about the nobles houses in lordaeron and what of then died and what of then survived, im pretty sure it should be someone in the high rank of nobles among the forsaken, but with no names it will be impossible to afirme.

But even so, i think there is no one more high than turalyon in ranks, with all he have done

Also, if the fanfic of anduin marring Callia happens? this would make Anduin the rightfull owner of lordaeron? unifying the kingdoms ?

geez more deep we look more weird become.

[ello]

Because the way she created a majority that supports her invalidates her claim. It is a claim based on killing of those who had a claim, but were murdered because they wouldn't want her.

"all land is troll land.."

[Magnagarde]

It's a bit of both, really. Blizzard writes these stupid faction war plots at least in part because some people can't get enough of the red vs blue posturing.

Myself I really don't see why the Horde and Alliance have to either be BFFs singing Kumbaya together, or kill each other until nobody's left out of pure hatred and resentment. I liked the dynamic we had in Vanilla/BC, where there was a cold war between the factions that heat up in specific locations without dragging the entire faction into a wasteful all-out war. But in BfA everyone's out for blood because of magic rocks and muh faction pride, and we just know that halfway through the Real Threattm will show itself and the factions will still cooperate anyway just like in Cata and Mists and the war won't actually be resolved because Blizzard is never going to destroy, or significantly and permanently weaken a faction.

I'm also annoyed when some say the faction conflict if the ''pillar'' of WoW. It was almost completely absent in WC3, Vanilla, BC, Wrath, WoD and Legion save, again, for local conflicts. More than half of Warcraft's iterations had almost nothing to do with Horde vs Alliance, yet suddenly it's some sort of theme that must come up again and again?

There are several works of fiction that make believable, interesting faction conflicts, with believable motivations and characters I care about. Blizzard trying to make me care about the boy-king and miss zombie 2018 fighting over magic rocks and dragging everyone else along with them? That's one hell of an uphill battle.

I believe that the only way to move things forward in this regard is to actually create more than two factions. Let the Horde and the Alliance fight eachother, but let these other factions pursue their own goals and agendas too.

[Friendlyimmolation]

How does saying "they" and then quoting a paragraph which says "many", clearly relating the two with eachother, mean all? What you think as to what I intended to say is different from what I actually said. They clearly addresses those who disagree.

It seems you failed to read yourself and are - as usual - calling others out on it. Here, have a read and realize that they do not want the immortality that she wants for them

What an awful choice of wording then, because you came off as your usual self, more interested in what you think the story should be rather than what it actually is.

You repeatedly have tried to make it sound like a majority.

[Magnagarde]

"all land is troll land.."

We're not talking about trolls versus humans. We're talking about undead humans versus living humans because some think that - storywise -
undead humans have more "legitimacy" than living humans after killing said living humans and taking their right to throw in their ten cents.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Because the way she created a majority that supports her invalidates her claim. It is a claim based on killing of those who had a claim, but were murdered because they wouldn't want her.

That's literally how every kingdom works, so why the hell are you moaning about Sylvanas in Lordaeron? Better kill Anduin for his crimes of sitting on Troll land he has no right to, Humans killed the trolls but it invalidates their claim to the land because the trolls are dead. Pack your bags humans.

[mickybrighteyes]

Because the way she created a majority that supports her invalidates her claim. It is a claim based on killing of those who had a claim, but were murdered because they wouldn't want her.

replay the storyline. Sylvanas wasn't present for the taking over of lordaeron or the raising of Kel'thuzad. The only living people she ordered dead were garithos (and the implied killing of his forces that would obviously follow, unclear on how much of them were left since we only see his forces getting pressed by Detheroc (?) and some ironforge reinforcements).

The way you're making things out is more similar to Deathwing's handling of the human lands. Manipulating every angle to put themself on top. She only killed the dreadlords, attacked Arthas, and order Garithos and his forces dead while displaying a great lack of interest in anything that didn't help her some how attain vengeance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

We're not talking about trolls versus humans. We're talking about undead humans versus living humans because some think that - storywise -
undead humans have more "legitimacy" than living humans after killing said living humans and taking their right to throw in their ten cents.

The original argument was based off your rambling about how Sylvanas doesn't belong in Lordaeron and should be in Quel'thalas. You seem willfully incapable of understanding that the Forsaken having her be their queen is all the claim she needs to be there. Forsaken , lordaeron citizens gave her her leadership, that's why she is there. The opinions of enemy forces do not matter, they never have.

And yes this obviously applies to the Alliance trying to take over Lordaeron in BFA before you oh so cleverly try to spin that around.