Battle for Lordaeron Lore [spoilers]

[Magnagarde]

Sylvanas freed the former Scourge ghouls and zombies that would go on to become the Forsaken and gave them hope and a charismatic figure to rally behind - which is essentially what leaders are. Since the Forsaken are essentially the native people of Lordaeron they elected Sylvanas as their leader despite her being a former High Elf, so she does indeed have a reason to be there and a claim on the territory that she commands. Stormwind itself has no right to Lordaeron, the only people in Stormwind that would have even a partial right would be the few expatriates of Lordaeron who successfully fled Arthas' culling of the living through his former kingdom. But even they are drastically outnumbered by the Forsaken - who, though undead, still constitute the majority of Lordaeron's denizens.

She killed the Lordaeron's living that fought alongside her to have their home back, breaking the deal she made with them.

My reply was also strictly addressing the fact that it was said how the Forsaken are from Lordaeron, whereas the most striking figure of them actually isn't. The ones who disagree with her or do not follow her orders end up like Koltira and those who helped liberate Lordaeron have been killed by her.

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She's ruling over people from Lordaeron, who chose her as their ruler.

The ones she didn't kill or didn't tie up against an iron maiden for not doing what an undead high elf, that wants to rule human lands so badly, wants them to do.

[ello]

umm, what about Turalyon?

honestly question, since he is from a noble house in lordaeron, in theory, he is the last rightful owner, who could have any claim to retake the city

..I actually don't know how the house of nobles works in this regard and whether or not he has a legit claim to the throne. There are other living nobles iirc so I'm not sure how it works. What happens if the Forsaken raise someone with an even greater claim to the throne? idk.

But my point was that it ultimately doesn't matter. There is no multilateral body to support such claims, the only defense of sovereignty is military support. At the end of the day claims of legitimacy are just empty words.

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Your arguement is still voided by the fact that Sylvanas has got nothing to do with Lordaeron in the first place. She is an undead high elf that should be in Quel'thalas, not Lordaeron.

I don't see the argument. The people who resided in Lordaeron do so in death as well, and they named Sylvanas their leader.

[Magnagarde]

I don't see the argument. The people who resided in Lordaeron do so in death as well, and they named Sylvanas their leader.

The ones she didn't kill, yes. There were living who liberated Lordaeron, who were then killed off by her so there's nobody that can contend with her.

Killing off the living and retaining the zealous ones and the ones that fear her can hardly be called a justifiable claim.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The ones she didn't kill, yes. There were living who liberated Lordaeron, who were then killed off by her so there's nobody that can contend with her.

Killing off the living and retaining the zealous ones and the ones that fear her can hardly be called a justifiable claim.

Does not change the fact that Lordaeron residents made Sylvanas their Queen.

[Magnagarde]

Does not change the fact that Lordaeron residents made Sylvanas their Queen.

She actually ascended silently. It's not like they had an election. It also changes a lot because she removed all those that wouldn't have her through force, which is a hallmark of tyrannical ascension.

Now that they fear her less as she is absent, the Desolate council formed and has shown that many disagree with her. It took removing her from Undercity to make this possible.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She actually ascended silently. It's not like they had an election. It also changes a lot because she removed all those that wouldn't have her through force, which is a hallmark of tyrannical ascension.

Now that they fear her less as she is absent, the Desolate council formed and has shown that many disagree with her. It took removing her from Undercity to make this possible.

I like how you try to make every single thing she has done with her leadership is bad, or twist it in a way where it comes down to "Doesn't count doesn't count". The forsaken chose her as their leader, they followed her as leader when she planned against Arthas, and when they planned against Garithos

She killed Garithos and his men, tough shit. The forsaken, the people who made her their queen, are from Lordaeron as well.

The Desolate council was made because of the vacuum she left, and their feelings of abandonment when she left them, you're trying to change the story to suit your argument.

[Magnagarde]

The Desolate council was made because of the vacuum she left, and their feelings of abandonment when she left them, you're trying to change the story to suit your argument.

Not really. The vacuum allowed them to get their ideas across publically and gather support. They actually disagree with the path she's taken them in terms of immortality. It's all in the small preview we've got to read from Blizzcon.

[Dastreus]

Are we going to talk about that crater of water in the hills of far western Tirisfal? What happened???

On topic. I don't get how Arathi is to stop the Belves from helping. It is literally going out of their way, to pass through Arathi, instead of through EPL, WPL, or even Alterac. If Blizz goes with that, either, belves are dumb as rocks with tactics, or blizz is dumb as rocks with tactics, OR maybe some bs like "The alliance has an impenetrable defense at the Bulwark!"

[Magnagarde]

I like how you try to make every single thing she has done with her leadership is bad, or twist it in a way where it comes down to "Doesn't count doesn't count".

She killed Garithos and his men, tough shit. The forsaken, the people who made her their queen, are from Lordaeron as well.

Killing everyone from Lordaeron who doesn't want her legitimizes her claim to Lordaeron, because whatever undead Lordaeronians are left want her? That means she got legitimized through tyrannical methods, automatically voiding the "but Lordaeron's people chose her!" mindbend. I'm not making it look bad because I don't have to make it look bad; it is bad by definition. You reckognize it too, which is why you're trying so hard to invalidate what is obviously a valid statement.

That's the same as if you killed everyone who disagrees with you in this thread and then said how everyone clearly agrees with you. Saying she was chosen to lead, but then aknowledging she killed off and destroyed anyone who wouldn't want her, automatically voids all legitimacy to the process of chosing.

[mickybrighteyes]

umm, what about Turalyon?

honestly question, since he is from a noble house in lordaeron, in theory, he is the last rightful owner, who could have any claim to retake the city

he probably stopped caring about such things thousands of years ago (cause he got that timey wimey business to smash the legion)

technically, the first claim would go to any living blood relative to the previous royalty. The princess has stated she doesn't care...
next marriage relation (most likely)... unclear on any dukes/duchess lords/ladies surviving the fall of the nation. Not saying there are none... but that the story has never bothered with them.

technically, Turalyon has as much claim to Lordaeron as Sylvanas... I'd wager LESS since she effectively took over a conquered city that was vacated by it's residents.

Really though, the retake lordaeron idea would just be terrible all around. It's not simply occupied by enemy forces, the very land is DECADES into an infestation that would kill lesser mortals (we gloss over this in game for simplicity sake) and crops just CAN'T grow near the city itself. The closest farms NOT tainted by plague are either on blessed ground from BEFORE the third war, or almost halfway to dwarven lands. Humans could reclaim the city... and then die/vacate it again inside a year because they don't have the means to maintain the place. Note even the plaguelands hasn't fully come back with it's magical reclamation works going on

[mickybrighteyes]

Are we going to talk about that crater of water in the hills of far western Tirisfal? What happened???

On topic. I don't get how Arathi is to stop the Belves from helping. It is literally going out of their way, to pass through Arathi, instead of through EPL, WPL, or even Alterac. If Blizz goes with that, either, belves are dumb as rocks with tactics, or blizz is dumb as rocks with tactics, OR maybe some bs like "The alliance has an impenetrable defense at the Bulwark!"

isn't arathi the next closest place to possibly make landfall with ships? but yeah... magical portal systems and air ships... overland route would be much better than going half way around teh continent. Maybe they could say that the plaguelands is still just too much for troops to simply march through in places or too many eyes and ears along the reclaimed pathways?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Not really. The vacuum allowed them to get their ideas across publically and gather support. They actually disagree with the path she's taken them in terms of immortality. It's all in the small preview we've got to read from Blizzcon.

Oh boy, is it so hard to actually read? Not every member of the council disagrees with her, and Nathanos flatly tells her that she left a void for alot of the Forsaken with her leaving.

it's right in the preview you preach about.

[Magnagarde]

technically, Turalyon has as much claim to Lordaeron as Sylvanas... I'd wager LESS since she effectively took over a conquered city that was vacated by it's residents.

It wasn't vacated though; she either killed them or forced them out, if they managed to get away alive that is.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Killing everyone from Lordaeron who doesn't want her legitimizes her claim to Lordaeron, because whatever undead Lordaeronians are left want her? That means she got legitimized through tyrannical methods, automatically voiding the "but Lordaeron's people chose her!" mindbend. I'm not making it look bad because I don't have to make it look bad; it is bad by definition. You reckognize it too, which is why you're trying so hard to invalidate what is obviously a valid statement.

That's the same as if you killed everyone who disagrees with you in this thread and then said how everyone clearly agrees with you. Saying she was chosen to lead, but then aknowledging she killed off and destroyed anyone who wouldn't want her, automatically voids all legitimacy to the process of chosing.

The forsaken put her up as their Queen, It's not bad, its you pulling straws because for whatever reason, you seem unable to realize how stupid this argument is. Garithos means jack fucking shit to the argument, the Forsaken are Lordaeron citizens, the Forsaken brought Sylvanas to power. You're argument is that "She doesnt belong!!1111" and it has no fucking weight what so ever outside of whatever means of logic you personally operate on.

If the forsaken were showing signs of division when they first formed under her leadership, you would have had an argument. But right now it's just as fucking dumb as saying The Menethil's claim was not valid because Greymane wanted Lordaeron.

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It wasn't vacated though; she either killed them or forced them out, if they managed to get away alive that is.

And yet her own people still voted her inn, which are lordaeron citizens, because you brought up your shitty "High elf in lordareon make no sense" argument.

[Magnagarde]

Oh boy, is it so hard to actually read? Not every member of the council disagrees with her, and Nathanos flatly tells her that she left a void for alot of the Forsaken with her leaving.

it's right in the preview you preach about.

It seems you failed to read yourself and are - as usual - calling others out on it. Here, have a read and realize that they do not want the immortality that she wants for them:

She had taken her flagship, the Windrunner, to Stormheim in the Broken Isles, in search of more Val'kyr to resurrect the fallen. It was, thus far, the only way Sylvanas had found to create more Forsaken. "I was almost able to enslave the great Eyir. She would have given me the Val'kyr for all eternity. None of my people would have ever died again." She paused. "I would have saved them."

"That ... is the corcern."

"Do not dance around this, Nathanos. Speak plainly."

"Not all of them desire for themselves what you desire for them, my queen. Many on the Desolate Council harbor deep reservations." His face, still that of a dead man but better preserved due to an elaborate ritual she had ordered performed, twisted in a smile. "This is the peril you created when you gave them free will. They are now free to disagree."

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The forsaken put her up as their Queen, It's not bad, its you pulling straws because for whatever reason, you seem unable to realize how stupid this argument is. Garithos means jack fucking shit to the argument, the Forsaken are Lordaeron citizens, the Forsaken brought Sylvanas to power. You're argument is that "She doesnt belong!!1111" and it has no fucking weight what so ever outside of whatever means of logic you personally operate on.

So what kind of an arguement are you actually trying to make here? That the undead are first class citizens of Lordaeron and the living are second class citizens of it? This is some creepy type of apartheid arguement that you're trying to make here. Garithos and more importantly - all the living that he commanded into Lordaeron's liberation - mean jack shit, but the undead mean everything.

This is exactly why her decaying kind is being booted out of it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I mean if you don't care about the outcome of the argument why have it?

Because you aren't the only person on the forums?

You just like the fighting? I personally don't.

Liking or disliking an argument is irrelevant. Feelings and facts don't have to mix.

And I merely mean I don't get butthurt if someone doesn't like something I like, and I think a large portion of fans, particularly the ones belonging to Sylvannas are guilty of the opposite.

So you're either ignorant or being willfully blind by acting as if only Sylvanas fans, are fanatical about a character, what's worse is that you are trying to make it the majority of the fans as well.

nice taking it out of context though - something you seem to have a penchant for.

Except it wasn't out of context, you went off the rails and started flailing about a toxic fanbase

Blizzard did indeed say that, of this I was not aware when I make that speculation, which is why I have conceded I was wrong, I do personally believe going forward BFA will move to have the Alliance and Horde take more land from each other - unlike you, when I'm wrong I'll admit it rather than just stop replying and pretend you don't exist, which I recall you doing many times in the past.

When I'm wrong ill admit it, so far all I see is someone backtracking while at the same time acting like a wounded knight incapable of wrongdoing, the eternal victim-hood of the internet scholar or whatever you want to call yourself.

In the rare case that someone goes deep off the fucking end like the old M-Ra debates, I'll stop replying simply so the thread doesnt go on for another twenty pages.

It seems you failed to read yourself and are - as usual - calling others out on it. Here, have a read and realize that they do not want the immortality that she wants for them:

I don't know if I got sucked into some twilight universe, or you are being selectively illiterate?

"Not all of them desire for themselves what you desire for them, my queen. Many on the Desolate Council harbor deep reservations." His face, still that of a dead man but better preserved due to an elaborate ritual she had ordered performed, twisted in a smile. "This is the peril you created when you gave them free will. They are now free to disagree."

No where does it say that "They," all of the council, is against her or her goals, nor does it say that suddenly all the Forsaken are turning against her/ were afraid of her etc. Obviously with the argument you are trying to push, you'll glance over it, or ignore it entirely.

So what kind of an arguement are you actually trying to make here? That the undead are first class citizens of Lordaeron and the living are second class citizens of it? This is some creepy type of apartheid arguement that you're trying to make here. Garithos and more importantly - all the living that he commanded into Lordaeron's liberation - mean jack shit, but the undead mean everything.

This is exactly why her decaying kind is being booted out of it.

It's an argument dealing with your seemingly "I need to have it both ways" mentality. You're original moaning about how Sylvanas belongs in Quel'thalas and not Loraderon is based off your own opinion and has nothing to do with any actual facts. So then you turn and start bringing up Garithos when it does not matter I will call it out.

The Forsaken were/are lordaeron citizens, and they chose Sylvanas for their Queen, your original complaint at best makes no sense, unless you are one of those "Teh undead have no rights!" people.

[mickybrighteyes]

It wasn't vacated though; she either killed them or forced them out, if they managed to get away alive that is.

Actually the way the undead campaign played out through both installments of wc3... Arthas and the scourge did that.

The Dreadlords and arthas continued it... and eventually we see a scourged Lordaeron as the battle for control of the region between Sylvanas and the Dreadlords with a brainwashed Garithos and whatever was left of his forces get played into killing themselves (like they'd been doing non-human forces under their command).

You make it sound like Sylvanas was roaming the region killing and razing towns... that was more Arthas, fallen paladin era...

[Magnagarde]

Actually the way the undead campaign played out through both installments of wc3... Arthas and the scourge did that.

The Dreadlords and arthas continued it... and eventually we see a scourged Lordaeron as the battle for control of the region between Sylvanas and the Dreadlords with a brainwashed Garithos and whatever was left of his forces get played into killing themselves (like they'd been doing non-human forces under their command).

You make it sound like Sylvanas was roaming the region killing and razing towns... that was more Arthas, fallen paladin era...

Once the liberation of Lordaeron from the Scourge happened however, she proceeded to kill all those who were left and who helped liberate it, breaking her promise given to the living of Lordaeron.

The killing done before this is done by Arthas, KT and Sylvanas, after which she tried to kill Arthas as she regained control of herself. After that she fought the dreadlords and later on liberated Lordaeron with the help of the living citizen and troops from Lordaeron.

[LoLcano]

Man the way people argue about Horde and Alliance with such passion on forums make you think they are real faction with real people in it not a fictional characters written by some dude as part of his job .

[Friendlyimmolation]

This is going to keep going on, you clearly have an opinion of me (however wrong it may be) and I of you (though mine just is built from observation) - so in the spirit of not derailing or circle-jerking, let's just stop. We're not going to change either of our minds, you can reply to this but I won't reply to whatever that is. Unless you do something sacrilegious like make fun of Khadgar's jokes

As I said before, I could care less if I change your mind, that isn't my goal.

Khadgar deserved death for his jokes alone, but now that hes sitting in Dalaran and crying instead of joining the Alliance means hes just a weak-wristed mage that would rather watch his friends die than pick a side.