For those who play both Sub & Sin...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Who cares if you do 5 or 10M on a trashpack?

I regularly oneshot open world mobs with 8M DPS, but that's irrelevant too.

Yeah this is a question you wouldn't ask if you ran high keys. Not that you can't enjoy WoW, be a wonderful person, and never run high keys. But yeah, M+ is very much about being able to kill trash fast, because on high keys some trash packs are both dangerous and time consuming.

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The point of my post wasn't to prove how sub is the better M+ spec, the point of it was to show that it really doesn't matter all that much what spec you play in M+. They both bring the same utility, which is the biggest selling point for rogues in M+ anyway.

The heart of my original question is whether there are some instances where it is clearly better to play one or the other. I addressed this thread to those who play both, because I'm not about judging people's preferences.

As tank for example, I try to keep multiple tank specs ready to go, because some instances are easier to tank as BrM, some as DK, some as Pally, some as DH... BrM is my current favorite, just because I find it most fun atm, but I like to think of them as golf clubs in my bag - different clubs for different situations.

[Tier539]

I play them both. I play sin for raids and usually swap to sub for m+. Assassination Poison bomb has the potential to burst really high if you get them at the right time, but also has the potential to not proc at the wrong time. Getting 3 pb procs in your crit window on a pack will send you to the top of any chart, but if the pack isn't that important then the damage is meaningless. Not getting a pb proc during your shoulder buff on a key trash pack can be brutal for the group. Sub on the other hand has very predictable burst and can save it for key points where it is needed and not rely on getting a proc at the correct time to contribute to dps. Sub DFA also still hits like a truck so in the many scenarios when you need to target down a single mob in a multi-mob pack, dfa really helps.

The one saving grace sin might have for your group is that you already have a (presumably) fire mage and a warrior that can carry the AoE dps if needed on trash for tyrannical weeks, and the sin rogue can do work on single target. However, on fortified, the ST advantage sin does have really wont matter much at all. Additionally the ST damage sin does over sub is not gigantic, probably something around 5-10%.

This also assumes he has all of the legendaries that matter.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I play them both. I play sin for raids and usually swap to sub for m+. Assassination Poison bomb has the potential to burst really high if you get them at the right time, but also has the potential to not proc at the wrong time. Getting 3 pb procs in your crit window on a pack will send you to the top of any chart, but if the pack isn't that important then the damage is meaningless. Not getting a pb proc during your shoulder buff on a key trash pack can be brutal for the group. Sub on the other hand has very predictable burst and can save it for key points where it is needed and not rely on getting a proc at the correct time to contribute to dps. Sub DFA also still hits like a truck so in the many scenarios when you need to target down a single mob in a multi-mob pack, dfa really helps.

The one saving grace sin might have for your group is that you already have a (presumably) fire mage and a warrior that can carry the AoE dps if needed on trash for tyrannical weeks, and the sin rogue can do work on single target. However, on fortified, the ST advantage sin does have really wont matter much at all. Additionally the ST damage sin does over sub is not gigantic, probably something around 5-10%.

This also assumes he has all of the legendaries that matter.

Maybe the best breakdown I've read yet. Thanks Tier!

[Master Guns]

I play them both. I play sin for raids and usually swap to sub for m+. Assassination Poison bomb has the potential to burst really high if you get them at the right time, but also has the potential to not proc at the wrong time. Getting 3 pb procs in your crit window on a pack will send you to the top of any chart, but if the pack isn't that important then the damage is meaningless. Not getting a pb proc during your shoulder buff on a key trash pack can be brutal for the group. Sub on the other hand has very predictable burst and can save it for key points where it is needed and not rely on getting a proc at the correct time to contribute to dps. Sub DFA also still hits like a truck so in the many scenarios when you need to target down a single mob in a multi-mob pack, dfa really helps.

The one saving grace sin might have for your group is that you already have a (presumably) fire mage and a warrior that can carry the AoE dps if needed on trash for tyrannical weeks, and the sin rogue can do work on single target. However, on fortified, the ST advantage sin does have really wont matter much at all. Additionally the ST damage sin does over sub is not gigantic, probably something around 5-10%.

This also assumes he has all of the legendaries that matter.

I can't disagree with any of your points, but I think you're undervaluing Sin's AoE a bit too much.

My typical guild setup for 15+ keys includes feral tank, priest healer, sin rogue (me), fire mage and warrior. The warrior and mage beat my AoE DPS on some trash packs, but that's only if poison bomb doesn't proc. If poison bomb does proc, which for me, in my experience in mythic+ keys is fairly frequently, probably once every other trash pack, I'm either at or higher DPS than them on said trash. We clear with good time, too.

My point is, people just assume that sin will be bad AoE, but with decent luck you can do a killing, and on bosses? Pah. I'm #1 every single boss, not just 5% higher either.

Note for crybabies and people who want to trash talk: Your experience may vary, especially if you just have shit rng. I won't pretend it never happens, it does, but for me I usually get good PB procs, even in raids.

[Deleted]

I can't disagree with any of your points, but I think you're undervaluing Sin's AoE a bit too much.

My typical guild setup for 15+ keys includes feral tank, priest healer, sin rogue (me), fire mage and warrior. The warrior and mage beat my AoE DPS on some trash packs, but that's only if poison bomb doesn't proc. If poison bomb does proc, which for me, in my experience in mythic+ keys is fairly frequently, probably once every other trash pack, I'm either at or higher DPS than them on said trash. We clear with good time, too.

My point is, people just assume that sin will be bad AoE, but with decent luck you can do a killing, and on bosses? Pah. I'm #1 every single boss, not just 5% higher either.

Note for crybabies and people who want to trash talk: Your experience may vary, especially if you just have shit rng. I won't pretend it never happens, it does, but for me I usually get good PB procs, even in raids.

Dude, as of what i understood he asked for high keys. Noone gives a fuck which spec you play on 15-20, seriously. You can even go Outlaw and pull off good numbers. On high keys tho, its DfA that shines on priority targets. PB is pure RNG. I mostly run Sin for 15-50 keys since its just more relaxing and i also remember runs when i topped overall charts cause PB went nuts but its still two different pair of shoes if you play 24+ keys.

There is a rogue who exclusively plays Sin only in m+, Seliathan, you can look him up but i've never seen him finishing a 26 in time tho whereas you often see Subs on 26/27 combos.

[Master Guns]

Uh, people consider the term "high key" as 15+, which doesn't devalue my input whatsoever. Go be a snarky shit somewhere else.

[henkish]

Uh, people consider the term "high key" as 15+, which doesn't devalue my input whatsoever. Go be a snarky shit somewhere else.

Maybe six months ago. Anything below 22 is a baby key for small tiny weak baby people

[Mirishka]

Which do you use for what? How do you decide?

I've only played my rogue alt a wee bit this expansion, so am no expert, but my newly formed M+ team is BrM-Resto Druid-Warrior-Mage-Rogue.

The rogue has always played Sin, but the warrior and mage are keen on him learning Sub because they believe it will be better for M+. We all like the player and want him on team regardless. He is great at executing all the rogue utility stuff. He is willing to try whatever to help the team, but reluctant because his numbers would go down while learning even if they came up again eventually.

I myself am open minded and eager to hear more expert opinions.

I only play assassination. I know that Sub excels in some areas but I don't enjoy it enough to care.

[Todesbote]

Assa: mythic raiding antorus (argus!)

Sub: everything else

[Deleted]

Assa: mythic raiding antorus (argus!)

Sub: everything else

No, simply no.

[Aluren]

Subtlety is far superior for M+, much better burst and aoe. Sin ends up depending on poison bomb procs for aoe wich is too inconsistent

[GenericName]

Subtlety posters have been the absolute worst on this forum ever since the beginning of the expac.

[Master Guns]

Maybe six months ago. Anything below 22 is a baby key for small tiny weak baby people

Gr8 b8, m8. But not today

[elfporn]

Subtlety is far superior for M+, much better burst and aoe. Sin ends up depending on poison bomb procs for aoe wich is too inconsistent

i feel like i need to point out that it's possible to do significant aoe damage without fishing for PB - i can maintain with fire mage without pb.

poison bomb fishing is a bad way to try and aoe as assination at current gear levels- your aoe dps will suck. It's much better to pump out FoK while maintaining virulent poisons. Particularly if you have 3 master alch relics, or still have PK relics from the time of the bug.

[Master Guns]

My m+ setup includes cloak/shoulder leggo combo and I do quite well on trash dps. I open with a FoK from stealth for the crit and increased dmg (can open with like 5M dps just after a single FoK) and just use FoK as a builder and rupture all mobs as spenders, switching to envenoms after all mobs are dotted. Especially nice when your adds are staying alive longer on higher keys. This usually nets me 2-2.5m dps alone, and if pb procs, well, then shit just dies.

And I’m only 943, I’m no god.

[Varolyn]

Assa: mythic raiding antorus (argus!)

Sub: everything else

If sub wasn't a decent M+ spec, it would be in full-on wheelchair mode. I don't think people understand how sad of a state it's in other than M+ (where it isn't even THAT amazing. It's still good, but there are a bunch of other specs in the game that do the job in M+).

[glowpipe]

I still raid on my assassin rogue. but i swapped to a monk for m+. Aoe stun and much better on demand aoe. i can go all out hardcore on my rogue. Garrote, rupture 4 targets. fok my brains out and Pray for a poison proc. Put in a lot of effort. And then i can go monk. Tiger palm. storm earth and fire and fist of fury with the 2 chi leggo and i blow the rogues aoe out of the water with minimal effort.

[Master Guns]

I still raid on my assassin rogue. but i swapped to a monk for m+. Aoe stun and much better on demand aoe. i can go all out hardcore on my rogue. Garrote, rupture 4 targets. fok my brains out and Pray for a poison proc. Put in a lot of effort. And then i can go monk. Tiger palm. storm earth and fire and fist of fury with the 2 chi leggo and i blow the rogues aoe out of the water with minimal effort.

I mean, sure.

But we're talking about rogues, not monks.

[ymirsson]

Yeah this is a question you wouldn't ask if you ran high keys. Not that you can't enjoy WoW, be a wonderful person, and never run high keys. But yeah, M+ is very much about being able to kill trash fast, because on high keys some trash packs are both dangerous and time consuming.

I am a wonderful person, thank you and i'm definitely not saying that trash DPS do not matter or more isn't better. But writing random numbers into a post does not carry any significant weight.

For your original question, if you are playing an alt, you would be locked to the better geared spec anyway, legendaries say hi.

[glowpipe]

I mean, sure.

But we're talking about rogues, not monks.

Yeah. Might have been a bit out of place this one. Tried to add my view on rogue aoe to a earlier post. Still butthurt that some classes got so easy and high aoe compared to other classes which has to work their bottocks of for not nearly the same result.