The UK will be worse off in EVERY Brexit scenario

[PL-Cibo]

Schengen isn’t relevant, not sure why you mentioned it.

because it's the only system in the EU which effectively influences border-control? you did go on about securing your border.

Learn to read.

I did, it's still nonsense.

It isn’t the duty of British people to subsidies poor people from other countries, their own country can do that.

in an ideal world? yes. is this an ideal world? nope. You arguing about the money drain on the people tho. thats whats stupid.

Nothing I said was incorrect.

i beg to differ.

British people did those jobs before, so it is an argument which has no basis in reality.

or indian people. or some other commonwealth immigrant. Oh and one of these jobs is quite new. don't sprout fairy tales.

I’m not sure you understand what ‘working class’ means.

And i'm quite sure you don't understand how import/export works. GB is not nearly self-sufficient. higher import taxes will hit everyone. Cost increases in base life products will hit everyone. hell, the devaluation of the pound already hits everyone.

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Perhaps Brexit was chosen for reasons of freedom and liberty from an external authority, rather than financial reasons.

yeah and maybe pigs can fly. there is no external authority. The EU can't decide anything without full cooperation of every member.

[Demolitia]

Perhaps Brexit was chosen for reasons of freedom and liberty from an external authority, rather than financial reasons.

That's a valid reason. But you can not reasonably have free movement of goods, people, services and cash, without expecting the same standards and rules to be applied to those wherever you go within the EU.
The fields in which the EU has jurisdiction and regulatory authority are those within the common markets where the same should be expected from everyone. Member States give the EU authority in certain fields because it is more practical and economical to do so.
I imagine you have different governments at different levels taking care of different things. I imagine roads, schools, kindergartens etc.. are not all handled and funded directly by London?
Likewise the EU steps in in certain areas where it makes sense.

If you go to another member state the work, you can expect the same living and working conditions as locals.
If you buy any product or service, you can expect it not to kill you and the same general laws and regulations to surround them.
You can easily move your cash to a bank account in another member state if you feel like it, or want to invest there.

Now you are free to refuse to be part of this for a host of good reasons, but you can not want your freedom and liberty back, and at the same time demand to still enjoy those freedoms.

[Errtu]

Buzzfeed on ecenomy.

[Fluttershy]

So basically get rid of the germans/spanish/eastern euros/whatever but keep all the troublemakers from the commonwealth countries (ie the people who contribute 70% of all crimes and take 5x more welfare than even the worst chavs).

[Kalis]

How do those two statements add up?

Because net migration doesn’t include children born to immigrants, which adds to the population. Immigrants have a higher birth rate than the native population.

And now there is an alternative we're opting not to, it has a strong basis in reality. Saying "Brits used to do it so its no problem" is further, really.

Brits did used to do it and if we are short then we can import people to do those jobs. Immigration to fill a skills shortage is what immigration should be used for.

because it's the only system in the EU which effectively influences border-control? you did go on about securing your border.

Schengen isn’t EU freedom of movement, they are two separate things and Schengen doesn’t apply to Britain l.

I did, it's still nonsense.

What I said was perfectly accurate. Your failure at reading comprehension is not my fault.

in an ideal world? yes. is this an ideal world? nope. You arguing about the money drain on the people tho. thats whats stupid.

British tax receipts aren’t for charity to non-British citizens.

i beg to differ.

Then you’d be wrong. Again, not my fault.

or indian people. or some other commonwealth immigrant. Oh and one of these jobs is quite new. don't sprout fairy tales.

Are you suggesting we didn’t have old people before EU freedom of movement legislation?

And i'm quite sure you don't understand how import/export works. GB is not nearly self-sufficient. higher import taxes will hit everyone. Cost increases in base life products will hit everyone. hell, the devaluation of the pound already hits everyone.

Considering that you don’t even understand the terminology I’m using, I’m not convinced you’re in a position to tell me I don’t understand what I’m talking about.

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It’s a common misconception that the housing crisis is largely driven by immigration, but this isn’t the case. Christian Hilber gave a lecture at the LSE last year that looks at the causes of our current housing crisis. If you have the interest and about an hour to spare, it’s worth a watch.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/website-archive...r.aspx?id=3786

It isn’t a misconception at all.

We have to replenish the housing stock and build housing for the existing population, when you add on net immigration figures it puts a massive strain on resources and pricing of existing housing stock.

An immigrant who earns over £30k per annum (it’s higher than that, but I can’t recall the exact figure) and is in an occupation that has a staffing shortage, will be a short term economic negative, but mid-to-long term will be a positive.

An immigrant earning that amount or higher, but in an occupation where there isn’t a skills shortage, will take longer to be a net economic positive, as they’ll be providing unrequired competition.

An immigrant who earns below that threshold, but works in an occupation with a skills shortage, won’t be a net positive in the short-to-medium term, but may (not necessarily will) be a net positive long term.

An immigrant below that wage, in an occupation that we don’t have a skills shortage in, will never be a net positive.


All immigration requires an investment in infrastructure from the government, via tax revenue, so it makes sense to limit immigration to those who will be a net positive at some point.

Anyone who tells you that immigration doesn’t affect the infrastructure costs is lying to you, it’s junk economics, it is impossible unless they are mega wealthy and paying a level of tax that you and I won’t pay in decades.

[Deianeira]

I am german and i want out as well ...i think GB did the right thing.
We dont need THIS Europe! A Europe of Banks, bureaucrats and EU-Government which give a shit about the people and always favor the big industry to earn even more.

From my perspective GB should be happy it did this step 1st - i am sure others will follow in the years to come. Or the whole EU might collapse...It's always shortly before this anyway.

I wonder what makes people think things will be different if they leave EU, that suddenly the banks/corporations and the like suddenly will be all "we are gonna be nice and not demand so much from now on" And dont give me that BS "well we must make them follow our rules" Then why not just do that on the EU level. And dont tell me it cant happen because that is just quitter-talk..

[Deleted]

Now I don't know the credentials of the others, but Reuters is pretty ok, no?

Reuters, talks about three scenario's as that's what was investigated
USAtoday
Evening Standard

So it's not just Buzzfeed, which admittedly is kinda iffy, which reported it.

I didn't question the news you reported.

What matters is that you used that source in your OP, which means you get -50 DKP for linking to it.

[Deianeira]

Yeah...fuck the environment! Who needs breathable air anyway?

And, as I mentioned earlier, it is the existing inhabitants paying for it, not the immigrants. You’re asking people to pay more to degrade the environment, have higher housing costs, greater strain on the NHS, increased employment competition, etc. Try selling that at an election.



Immigrants, especially Eastern European ones, tend to have lower overheads, meaning they can afford to work for lower pay. They aren’t better, just cheaper.

But isnt this a thing for legislation to not allow people to go under a threshold? Like minimum wage and actually enforce it. And for buisness that dont comply there should be severe punishments?

[Deleted]

That's a valid reason. But you can not reasonably have free movement of goods, people, services and cash, without expecting the same standards and rules to be applied to those wherever you go within the EU.
The fields in which the EU has jurisdiction and regulatory authority are those within the common markets where the same should be expected from everyone. Member States give the EU authority in certain fields because it is more practical and economical to do so.
I imagine you have different governments at different levels taking care of different things. I imagine roads, schools, kindergartens etc.. are not all handled and funded directly by London?
Likewise the EU steps in in certain areas where it makes sense.

If you go to another member state the work, you can expect the same living and working conditions as locals.
If you buy any product or service, you can expect it not to kill you and the same general laws and regulations to surround them.
You can easily move your cash to a bank account in another member state if you feel like it, or want to invest there.

Now you are free to refuse to be part of this for a host of good reasons, but you can not want your freedom and liberty back, and at the same time demand to still enjoy those freedoms.

It's not about getting liberty back, it is about creating new freedoms, new liberties. There's nothing to get back, they can keep it over there. With pleasure.

It's time for new freedoms not the old ones, which are now long gone.

[Demolitia]

Because net migration doesn’t include children born to immigrants, which adds to the population. Immigrants have a higher birth rate than the native population.


Brits did used to do it and if we are short then we can import people to do those jobs. Immigration to fill a skills shortage is what immigration should be used for.

As long as they are integrated, find jobs and participate in the economy, there is another role for immigration you hinted at. They have a higher birth rate than the native, which slows down the problem of low birth rate and ageing population. That's a huge strain on your pension schemes and NHS if you don't have an active population big enough to sustain it.

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It's not about getting liberty back, it is about creating new freedoms, new liberties. There's nothing to get back, they can keep it over there. With pleasure.

It's time for new freedoms not the old ones, which are now long gone.

It's all nice and poetic but what new freedoms and liberties do you want? And how is the EU stopping you from getting them?

[Deianeira]

Not true at all, lots of eu countries are wanting to leave the eu now. The mass immigration ended the EU. People aren't stupid, they can recognize a trojan horse when they see it. Merkel should face capital punishment.

Lol the ignorance is hilarious. You do realize that if there is to be any "Trojan takeover" there needs to be far far far more people that have come then has sofar right? For there to be ANY sort of sucessful takeover anywhere there would need to be like the previous refugee-crisis EVERY year for some 30-50 years.

[Kalis]

But isnt this a thing for legislation to not allow people to go under a threshold? Like minimum wage and actually enforce it. And for buisness that dont comply there should be severe punishments?

Minimum wage is nowhere near the threshold to be a net positive. It is for the benefit of employees, not the overall economy.

The average wage in Britain is about £26k, so most people are already a net drain, adding more below the threshold is economic suicide.

We are adding to headline GDP figures by importing lots of low skilled people, but it is a shit way to measure how well people are doing on an individual basis.

[Deleted]

As long as they are integrated, find jobs and participate in the economy, there is another role for immigration you hinted at. They have a higher birth rate than the native, which slows down the problem of low birth rate and ageing population. That's a huge strain on your pension schemes and NHS if you don't have an active population big enough to sustain it.

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It's all nice and poetic but what new freedoms and liberties do you want? And how is the EU stopping you from getting them?

It is poetic, poetic justice. And the EU has a say from overseas, and no is not an option. If Brexit (if!) happens then freedom from that is achieved.

[Kalis]

As long as they are integrated, find jobs and participate in the economy, there is another role for immigration you hinted at. They have a higher birth rate than the native, which slows down the problem of low birth rate and ageing population. That's a huge strain on your pension schemes and NHS if you don't have an active population big enough to sustain it.

Those immigrants will also get old, thus requiring an ever increasing immigration level, that’s an immigration Ponzi scheme.

They aren’t all integrating either, though that is more of an issue with non-EU immigration.

Our entire immigration policy was fucked up by Blair, it needs a complete revamp, but the current Tories haven’t got the balls to do it - I thought Theresa May had, but she’s a dud.

[Deianeira]

Can you point to any news about that?

I have talked to a lot of people lately and many were not even aware about the EU army plan.

The next election will be on Sweden, I still have to do some research about it, but I will not be surprised if the Anti-EU/"Anti immigration" party see a big rise this ellection.

As it stands in the polls atm the SD Sweden Democrats have lost ALOT of the support they gainede during and after the election/and the crisis. But who knows what will happen during the electioncycle. I dont think they will gain any more support on the contrary i think they will loose support since now there is no refugeecrisis and the immigration has been slowed significantly. im sure they will have outrageous stuff to throw around as they always have but they will drop even more then they have i think.

[Demolitia]

It is poetic, poetic justice. And the EU has a say from overseas, and no is not an option. If Brexit (if!) happens then freedom from that is achieved.

Why is no not an option? The EU is not Juncker's Commission. That's just the executive arm of the EU. decisions are made by the parliament (which is elected by us all), and the Council, which are basically heads of members states.
You are not free from your government either, but that's how countries work.

[Delana]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonard...py#.blgJ53nLKz

Who would have thought?

Except they'll still have their sovereignt and their people intact.

>Believing the "economy" is the only and most important thing.
>Being this new.

[Draco-Onis]

It is poetic, poetic justice. And the EU has a say from overseas, and no is not an option. If Brexit (if!) happens then freedom from that is achieved.

I am still curious as to what new freedoms and liberties you are referring to, what will the average citizen be able to do that they weren't allowed to before leaving the EU?

[Demolitia]

Those immigrants will also get old, thus requiring an ever increasing immigration level, that’s an immigration Ponzi scheme.

They aren’t all integrating either, though that is more of an issue with non-EU immigration.

Our entire immigration policy was fucked up by Blair, it needs a complete revamp, but the current Tories haven’t got the balls to do it - I thought Theresa May had, but she’s a dud.

Sure. You (and basically all western developed countries) need to find a way to get a higher and sustainable birth rate. But nobody has figured out how to do that. So unless you're willing to kill your elderly because they take space, clog your NHS, and are not a net positive. Until you figure out the solution, immigrants are the way to go.
Immigration policies can and should be improved, but one very real and immediate problem is that people live longer, and your active population is not renewed so you need people from somewhere.

[Deleted]

Why is no not an option? The EU is not Juncker's Commission. That's just the executive arm of the EU. decisions are made by the parliament (which is elected by us all), and the Council, which are basically heads of members states.
You are not free from your government either, but that's how countries work.

I have a realistic chance of influencing my government. That is possible with the EU but realistically I have no chance of doing that with such distance between us. I will take my chances with something local instead and be free of the EU "just to be sure".