Where's the hype before killing Villains?

[Marston]

The thing with Arthas is that he was build up in 3 campaigns in WC3 (well, 4 if you count his occasional appearance in cutscenes and so on). The story in a single WC3 campaign probably carries the storyline of several zones and raidtiers in WoW. And WC3 had 8 of those. No wonder characters could be more fleshed out. Also, in those campaigns, we could actually experience loss. Something like that is much harder to pull off in an MMO. I mean, first playing the human campaign and fighting off the Scourge, than playing said Scourge and totally devestating the other factions - how would that play out ingame? We are part of a single faction, we can't just switch in WoW and suddenly be a Legion general and having another campaign to build up a Remnant Army of the Legion to lead a final attack against Azeroth.

Unless characters are fleshed out over the course of many zones, dungeons and expansions, you won't see something like Arthas again. Wrathion may be the closest we have so far, and even he has been absent for basically 2 expansions now.

[Zerzuru]

The hype shortage we have is because it is not managed properly. You need to plant it , let it flourish and protect it. Wotlk LK feelt more that he was ( muhahaha spam ; I am the BIG baddy; in case you forgot: You are nothing!) but was well established in WC3 and not killed immediately after. His story was built during WC3 RoC and WC3 TFT and then let the hype to flourish , when wotlk started everyone felt they awaited an eternity for him and ignored his crappy presentation and the fact there were no LFR-faceroll mode also helped.

If we want hype we need WC4 and let the villain live more than an one and half expansion, also let be just 2 modes hard and super hard, with LFR removed or just reduced to a catch-up mechanic to be released 1 month after the raid was defeated on super hard mode.

To be honest I felt some hype for Xavius, he existed a long time before Legion while Gul'dan was here from WoD and die at start of Legion ( no, you cant say he is as old as Warcraft itself , AU Gul'dan cant be compared with OU one, after WoD cinematic they can be considered completly different villains). Argus was like : " Huh? Who is this guy? Hmm sounds dangerous ... and intresting. What , he already die!? ".
By comparision consider we fight someone like Sylvans or LK Bolvar . How hyped you'd be ?

[Ithekro]

How many raid bosses have killed the entire raid "in canon" only raised by a third party to we can end the fight? Two that I remember. The Lich King, and Argus.
The Lich King killed us....all of use that ever raided him. The Light heard the call and we were raised after Frostmorne was shattered. Than we put him down.
Argus killed us....every single one of us in the room, only the Titans brought us back so that they could use Argus to imprison Sargaras. Argus was a stepping stone to ending the Burning Legion's Crusade.

[Deleted]

They need the villains to be more present during the questing/patch experience, yeah.

Not every Villain, but some of them should be present for the whole expansion building up to killing them at the end.

[McNeil]

They haven't made most villains after Arthas any interesting. They often end up as raid bosses before we get to know them well enough to care anything for them. They managed to do so with Garrosh because he's got an ongoing arc that started from TBC, that eventually ends in WoD. Even then they could've tried to portray his desire to just turn against the other Horde factions to go for unnatural powers (and that while hypocritically her's very much against the use of blight and fel magic) much better than portraying him as an orc Hitler. Deathwing had potential to be a great villain but he's been absent for to much in his own expansion, ending up to be just an angry dragon shooting fireballs around. Archimonde in WoD just came out of nowhere, then in Legion they criminally underused Kil'jaeden who hs been a major villain since the very beginning. Rather use both Archi and Kil as a single boss fight to end the expansion with, or at least use them as the boss before Argus.

What made Arthas so great is that he's had a lot of portrayal in WC3, the book and in certain parts of the game. This also made the WotLK trailer to be very emotional if you know his backstory. As a death knight he's known to have a rather cruel and charismatic which is what made him an awesome character. This is the kind of portrayal that most other villains lack these days, there's no emotional connection to be found with any of them. This is also why I support more RTS games to try to introduce more villains and just better characters, instead of relying on old farts for to long (looking at you Sylvanas).

[Deleted]

The Lich King story was well written(Wc3:RoC/TFT, then wotlk).

I have to disagree. WC3 and TFT story was fine and made sense. But after that it was very poorly written.

They simply dismissed the whole Ner'zhul story in a book, but then in-game the Lich King states he was a Shaman once. That doesn't make sense.

Another thing that was written in the books was that Ner'zhul and Arthas souls were defeated by a new pure evil entity called the Lich King. Okay, that's weird and I hate that decision but we'll roll with it.
But then later in Icecrown we see Matthias Lehner, the childish spirit of Arthas. Wasn't it supposed to be destroyed? This doesn't make sense either.

Then we learn that Arthas' heart is being hidden somewhere that holds the last bits of his humanity. Except that in the books he already shred the last bits. This doesn't add up, AGAIN.

So Tirion destroys the heart and this is supposed to have destroyed the last bits of his humanity. EXCEPT THAT AFTER DEFEATING THE LICH KING IN THE RAID HIS NORMAL HUMAN FORM ARTHAS SHOWS UP. WHAT ARE YOU DOING BLIZZARD??!!?!?!?!!?! I'm pretty sure his humanity was destroyed like 4 times already, prior to his defeat.

None of it made sense. Garrosh and Deathwing were better written villains than the Lich King.

[Queen of Hamsters]

All around, really. Some villains create more of a hype than others. Gul'dan for example.

I felt pretty damned hype to beat Antorus and thus beating Sargeras.

[Deleted]

As much as i disagree with the concept of lfr and think it has no real place in wow, people saying lfr/different difficulty kills the hype of bosses is nonsense, lich king had 4 tiers of difficulty just like today does.

The reasoning for the lack of hype is indeed due to the in your face cartoon style lich king of wotlk, it was pretty unpopular how he was portrayed in wotlk and in true blizzard fashion instead of toning it down a little after getting feedback on it they take it way too far in the opposite direction.

[Eazy]

then take a break or quit for good. problem solved thread closed

It always amazes me whenever someone write "then quit the game" in the threads that doesn't even close to the point of the OP. People who have nothing constructive to say should remain silent, otherwise they should've been treated as spammers - because they're only wasting their and other people time for childish playthings.

so you are not into wow lore, gotcha.

You didn't get the point of this thread. If you lack reading comprehension then it's your problem, not mine.
(Anyway - still don't know what eredar is? lol'd )

[anaxie]

Wrath of The Lich King is voted as the best expansion(wrathbabies, dklegolas, nostalgia, yeah, yeah) - on this forum, across the YT/official forums etc.

I remember when on the Blizzcon(not sure which year) people were doing interviews about the most Epic Moment in WoW most of the people said - Killing Lich King.(I agree btw)

The Lich King story was well written(Wc3:RoC/TFT). We knew about his past, we knew his intentions, we saw him in the quests, we knew what he's capable of. Stepping into ICC was like a gift you open after waiting for a long time.

We had a little build-ups for Lei-Shen and Garrosh and they were nice written characters. Not as much as Arthas, but still better than most of the bosses we have right now.

What's this thread about? Well, I'm no longer feeling that hype towards bosses in the game.

Kil'jaeden? What was that? One of the strongest beings in the whole Azeroth and he wasn't even the last boss of the Legion Expansion(he should be). Hype for him was build up since Wc3:TFT(and then in TBC) - and he ended as a final boss of the second tier in the medicore raid in a average fight(in terms of mechanics and visually).
Argus? Who the hell is that guy? Should I feel accomplishement after killing that no-body?
(I get that he's strongest guy that we fought with, but Blizzard just pulled a rabbit out of a hat - he's just a titan fetus we knew nothing about - they can do that with each boss we're fighting - Well, here's a Bongomambo a titan fetus from the planet Nathreza, he is going to kill this dimension with one of his attacks if you don't stop him!
The fight was awesome anyway(visually and in terms of mechanics)).

I fear that they're going to do the same thing with Azshara... and then with N'zoth next.

What do you think about it?

Sunwell mediocre

Said no one ever

Also the intro villa. For BFA is already pretty much Prophet Zul whos been around between 4.1 and throne of thunder

[Hctaz]

Arthas's """build up""" was just about the shittiest thing that has ever happened in-game.

"Haha, I'm going to let you survive this time, because you're nothing, even though you're completely ruining my plans across Northrend."
"Haha, I'm going to let you get away, even though you are still screwing over my plans, becuase you're amusing."
"Haha, I'm going to let you get away, even though you have stopped everything I was doing on the entire continent, because I really want you as a DK despite now having lost literally thousands upon thousands of scourge and a number of significantly stronger fighters for it.".

I don't think it was shitty at all, and he didn't lose any significantly stronger fighters for it either. The idea is that those 25 raiders would be stronger than anything else he's ever had in his army if they were turned into Death Knights under him.

[Count Zero]

Arthas / The Lich King's story was built up for literally 7½ full years, across two different games (and multiple expansions of both those games) and novels. That's why it was the most emotionally resonant moment for fans of the franchise. Even fans who started with Vanilla / BC felt the push in that direction.

There will almost certainly never be another build like that for any character in the franchise.

[anaxie]

Arthas / The Lich King's story was built up for literally 7½ full years, across two different games (and multiple expansions of both those games) and novels. That's why it was the most emotionally resonant moment for fans of the franchise. Even fans who started with Vanilla / BC felt the push in that direction.

There will almost certainly never be another build like that for any character in the franchise.

Kiljaeden was built up over 15 years if you give arthas 8 years credit. Pretty sure kj was already that long anticipated kill too

Theres.a reason burning legion was a hype expansion theme

[alt-ithist]

It does however affect perception of players, how they see these bosses. Bosses in the game are not represented just by lore and story, but also with encounters with them. That's why Arthas was so special. He taunted you all the way up until you had chance to meet him and fight him, however fight him also meant to do proper raiding. Which isn't for everyone. So in time of WotLK, dealing with Arthas was really big. (until they nerfed whole ICC).

That's not coincidence, that after LFR not a single boss captured these feelings...because no matter how strong this boss lorewise is, your grandmother can kill him.

10man normal lichking was a joke, didn’t take away from the joy I had killing 25m heroic one. Think we did it at either the 15 or 20% buff.

- - - Updated - - -

Kiljaeden was built up over 15 years if you give arthas 8 years credit. Pretty sure kj was already that long anticipated kill too

He was mentioned over 15 years. Arthas was front and center with his games built around him. Not sure how you can put them in the same category.

[Count Zero]

Kiljaeden was built up over 15 years if you give arthas 8 years credit. Pretty sure kj was already that long anticipated kill too

Theres.a reason burning legion was a hype expansion theme

There's a (mostly) straight, unbroken line from WC3 to Wrath. Not so much for KJ.

[Legends303]

I agree about KJ he should have been built up in 7.2 it would have been a good opportunity to have the campaign around him. Instead we had kill your 10,0005th demon questline.

[Niroshi]

I don't think it was shitty at all, and he didn't lose any significantly stronger fighters for it either. The idea is that those 25 raiders would be stronger than anything else he's ever had in his army if they were turned into Death Knights under him.

This was also his plan the entire time.

To the main topic: I think the hype basically died for these villains because Blizzard just doesn't do them justice any more. Look at the run up to Arthas even without considering WC3. You face the Scourge in Vanilla, you went through Naxxramas and fought his chief lieutenant there. When they gave Arthas cinematics it was usually with an overhanging sadness to them, and this lingering sense of threat. He was never really upstaged until the very end, he never lost control. Even when defeated he was allowed to walk off like a bad ass. When you run into him in the world he's testing your mettle. He's legitimately one of the most intimidating dungeon bosses in the 5man he appeared in. His final patch trailer is beyond epic, with his father narrating things to him while he's surrounded by the souls of the dead trapped in Frostmourne. His final fall comes from a bit of luck after he's beaten you.

Compare that to most bosses in the game now and they don't even come close. Most aren't given enough time to really be threatening. Arthas was immediately followed by Deathwing who broke the world then spent a while flying around doing basically nothing special. Our times adventuring were wrapped up in Deathwing's allies but we saw little of him. The most intimidating he ever got was probably the End Times dungeon just seeing the aftermath of his victory. His fight was hilariously silly and he loses his shit towards the end of it.

The only villains that could have held a candle to Arthas I think were the Legion, and Blizzard botched the storytelling with them hardcore this expansion. After the initial invasions during the pre-launch, and the deaths of Varian/Vol'jin and Tirion nothing substantial really happens to us. The invasions completely stopped for some reason outside the Broken Isles, and we constantly win while they go "ENOUGH!" and run away. Some of them even start getting whiny and stressed when you start winning. This is why Fel Lord Zakuum is still so good too. Even while losing he's laughing at you. He knows the Legion will win, he's supremely confident in that "fact" and you can kind of feel the futility in your victory when you beat him. They went out of their way to set up this plot point allowing demons to return infinitely, but every raid is filled with mostly filler demons with no backstory and no real impact or significance.

When we finally face Kil'jaeden he's just the mid-tier end boss. He's the supreme commander of the Legion and he's not even the guy we've been spending this whole time trying to get to. Bosses appear and die so quickly they might as well barely have names. Compare that with Arthas, and how even when you fought his rando lieutenants you were still ultimately on the path to kill him. He was the end goal, hyped up all expansion and given all the epic music, cinematics and impactful moments you could ever ask for. KJ, Aggramar, Argus and all them just show up suddenly and die almost as quick. The only one with any gravitas was Gul'dan and that was because he was given the Arthas treatment, and even with him his fight didn't feel desperate. Cool visuals and stuff but no real sense of stakes from him and no sense that you're out of your league.

Hell you probably shouldn't even feel good about killing Argus. He's a victim in this whole story, driven mad through torture and abuse. He never had a choice in what happened to him. Then again they developed the character so little I wouldn't be surprised if most who killed him knew or cared.

[Jester Joe]

You think? I think otherwise, Lich King was ruined in WoTLK exactly because he was degraded to a joke level by popping up everywhere and taunting player in a Powerpuff Girls villain fashion.

People keep saying this, yet for some reason, he's still one of the most praised fights/end bosses.

I would disagree with you on that heavily. It's far more interesting to actually HAVE interactions with the final boss rather than never seeing them or hearing of them.

Hell, even Aggramar had a bit more going for him than Argus did, since he did at least show up to try to kill us.

[Deleted]

If you want to talk about underwhelming or disappointing character elimination then;
Kargath bladefist was probably the worst one.

I'm still salty about killing Kael'thas, such a great character.

[Powerogue]

Completely disagree with Kil'jaeden. He's an established villain with a long history and his cinematics and very challenging boss battle made it very satisfying, especially seeing his last moments with Velen. One of the most memorable moments of the entire expansion.

"That nobody?" Argus? Yes he was a new character but still a very important one. "The infinite army....will become finite." Like "holy **** guys we have the ability to actually STOP the legion. For real this time and not just shove them back out some portal." Yet the whole time you're in the instance you're going "Well this is cool and all but where the heck is Sargeras?" Only for BOOM, him to be ripped out of the clouds and imprisoned. About the only thing I was disappointed was that we didn't get to see some sort of massive rebirthing chamber channeling Argus's energy into demons we had killed in the past. There was some missed potential there.

You think? I think otherwise, Lich King was ruined in WoTLK exactly because he was degraded to a joke level by popping up everywhere and taunting player in a Powerpuff Girls villain fashion.

I thought of him as more of Doctor Claw from Inspector Gadget. "I'll get you next time, heroes, NEXT TIME!!! *vanishes through a Death Gate*"