More affliction nerfs... needed?

[muto]

Wasn't much of a nerf to Drain Soul healing if that's what they were going for. Still heals for 400k and 1.4m crit per tick. Limits a bit of what I can stand in but not by much.

[Count Zero]

The part where they say Drain Soul trait remains unchanged for PVP is only for instanced pvp, it seems. I really felt this nerf in wpvp.

Seems odd for it to be intentionally that way, might be a bug

[muto]

Apparently a world where affliction locks needed a buff lol
The ones I raid with don't seem to do as well? But I guess solo'n eonar kinda provides evidence that it's just the ones I play with lol

There was also 28 Warlocks 2 dks that full cleared heroic. Blizzard prob caught wind of the video and went after drain soul .

[gioderpington]

There was also 28 Warlocks 2 dks that full cleared heroic. Blizzard prob caught wind of the video and went after drain soul .

Oh I forgot about that!
Ya that self healing definitely needed a nerf

[Deleted]

Entirely incorrect. For starters, the 90th percentile in Mythic makes up a very small percentage of players so this group is borderline a statistical outlier and hardly a means to determine a "spec's worth". Second, I don't know where you get this assumption that players in the 50th-75th percentile are bad. I've had a few 90th+ fights for my ilvl, but being a filthy casual, my ilvl is very low so overall I'm closer to the 50th percentile for the class. That doesn't mean I play my spec incorrectly. I've also raided with some pretty bad players at higher levels too so yes, sometimes people with higher ilvls who play poorly will fall into that 50th-75th range as well. I also have a crap legendary in one slot, so someone of an equal ilvl with a much better legendary may have a clear dps advantage there as well. The larger the group of players you look at, the more you eliminate these types of anomalies.

It is obvious that when your itemlevel is low you are not going to get good percentiles even if you play your spec perfectly. The people on 90th+ percentile have the gear (itemlevel, stat distribution, relics and legendaries) to get the most out of their spec and there are plenty of people who consistently rank 90th+ percentile every week on the same boss. Parses at that percentile aren't some statistical outlier like 99th percentile parses are (and even there people can and do consistently perform around that level).

The maximum dps a spec can do in a normal situation is not determined by the 50-75th percentile. It is determined by top players that consistently perform at very high percentiles and that is where a spec's worth is to be determined from. If you have the gear and you are not getting 90th+ percentile logs you are quite simply doing it wrong (provided you aren't on some tactic duty that messes your dps up, your guild doesn't have shit killtimers and/or uses some shit tactic or you died, this list is not inclusive of course). The fact that people that do have the gear but not the skill to output the same dps as those top players does not drag a spec's worth down. That is not how this works. The maximum consistent output isn't an average over all outputs.

[Swampmoose]

It is obvious that when your itemlevel is low you are not going to get good percentiles even if you play your spec perfectly. The people on 90th+ percentile have the gear (itemlevel, stat distribution, relics and legendaries) to get the most out of their spec and there are plenty of people who consistently rank 90th+ percentile every week on the same boss. Parses at that percentile aren't some statistical outlier like 99th percentile parses are (and even there people can and do consistently perform around that level).

The maximum dps a spec can do in a normal situation is not determined by the 50-75th percentile. It is determined by top players that consistently perform at very high percentiles and that is where a spec's worth is to be determined from. If you have the gear and you are not getting 90th+ percentile logs you are quite simply doing it wrong (provided you aren't on some tactic duty that messes your dps up, your guild doesn't have shit killtimers and/or uses some shit tactic or you died, this list is not inclusive of course). The fact that people that do have the gear but not the skill to output the same dps as those top players does not drag a spec's worth down. That is not how this works. The maximum consistent output isn't an average over all outputs.

None of that matters. You can't simply balance around what goes on in .1% of the game. It is part of the equation but you have to take everything into account. Balancing around the 90th percentile in Mythic only would be like balancing around Mythic Eonar only. 6+ million on paper seems absurd but it isn't representative of the majority. The 50th-75th percentile across more difficulties is more accurate, but both that group and the 90th Mythic should be considered. Not one or the other.

[Deleted]

None of that matters. You can't simply balance around what goes on in .1% of the game. It is part of the equation but you have to take everything into account. Balancing around the 90th percentile in Mythic only would be like balancing around Mythic Eonar only. 6+ million on paper seems absurd but it isn't representative of the majority. The 50th-75th percentile across more difficulties is more accurate, but both that group and the 90th Mythic should be considered. Not one or the other.

I disagree. Specs should be balanced around their maximum consistent output. After that care should be taken to minimize the gap between the maximum consistent output of top players and the output players of average players (by making sure the gameplay needed to perform at max level is not too different from what average people do). If you can manage that, the spec will be balanced across all skill levels even though you only balanced for top play!

[Erolian]

I disagree. Specs should be balanced around their maximum consistent output. After that care should be taken to minimize the gap between the maximum consistent output of top players and the output players of average players (by making sure the gameplay needed to perform at max level is something a lot of people could pull off if they put in the effort). If you can manage that, the spec will be balanced across all skill levels even though you only balanced for top play!

Not really a fan of making sure good players aren't too good compared to bad players. That's pretty much just a reduction of depth in the end and you're really just trying to save the feelings of people who are legitimately awful. Making sure that some specs aren't absurdly easy at the highest end compared to others is more important imo

[Nefarious Tea]

Seems odd for it to be intentionally that way, might be a bug

World PvP is raw pve power though. The Drain Soul being unaffected in PvP means the template; so yes it's only instanced pvp.

[MisterBigglez]

Not sure why they are here now, but they did need a little nerf to bring them back in line. Still top regardless.

[Deleted]

Not really a fan of making sure good players aren't too good compared to bad players. That's pretty much just a reduction of depth in the end and you're really just trying to save the feelings of people who are legitimately awful. Making sure that some specs aren't absurdly easy at the highest end compared to others is more important imo

Hmm that's maybe not exactly what I meant, I think I am trying to say that you should make sure that the dps dropoff as skill level goes down is somewhat consistent across all specs. That way you can balance for top play with that balance trickling down to lower level play almost perfectly.

[Arkura]

Apparently a world where affliction locks needed a buff lol
The ones I raid with don't seem to do as well? But I guess solo'n eonar kinda provides evidence that it's just the ones I play with lol

Affliction lock is the highest simming spec in the game. They are by far the strongest caster. Affliction used to be extremely good in cleave fights, especially with 3+ targets. Now they top meters single, cleave and multi target fights. Its just getting a bit stupid at this point lol.

[Cainium]

90th percentile on mythic is a good indicator of a spec's performance, higher than that you will run into cheese strats, lower than that you will run into people not having a clue of what they are doing. What matters to determine a spec's worth is not what the average bad can do with it, but what the top players in a non-cheese strat can do with it.

So, you say that, if every aff lock would be apart by 1 DPS on the rankings, 75% of locks wouldn't know "what they are doing"? The highest parse for Garothi M is 2,3 million DPS, At rank 1500 it's 1,8 Million and at 5282 its 1,6 million (which is below your proposed 75%). So the gap is pretty big, and far from linear. I would say itemlevel and fight duration has more influence between 90% and 70% as "skill" has on it.

Some people say that the DPS can range between 500k by pure randomness. If that is true, the lock player in the 70% could jump over 90% just by being lucky.

Judging a specs performance by logs is hard 'cause the circumstances are different for the best and the worst player.

Judging by statistics:
Garothi: Aff - Fire difference ~ 200k DPS
Hounds: Aff - Fire difference ~ 600k DPS
High command: Aff - Fire difference ~ 300k DPS
Eonar: is out. That is just a big trash fight.
Hasabel: Aff - Fire difference ~ 300k DPS
Imonar: Aff - Fire difference ~ 100k DPS
Kin'garoth: Aff - Fire difference ~ 200k DPS
Variamthras: Aff - Fire difference ~ 500k DPS
Coven: Aff - Fire difference ~ 1500k DPS
Aggramar: Aff - Fire difference ~ 700k DPS
Argus: Aff - Fire difference 40k DPS

Note on these: Affliction is on most of these fights one of the highest performing specs, or above average, while fire is always on the lower spectrum.

Coven: Aff is OP.
Hounds: Aff fulfils it's niche (but only if he can multi dot on mythic like heroic, which is not always possible depending on the strat)
Hasabel, Varimathras, Aggramar: Aff profits more from adds than other classes directly killing them (so the on-death mechanics are too strong)
For all other fights: Since we are in the 90% percentile, where we can assume two things: The players know what they are doing and specs based on randomness won't have a bad luck streak, the difference is irrelevant. On the average, affs dps will be lower due to randomness. Based on that point the correct solution is buffing the underperforming specs, instead of nerfing affliction.

Having that said, people can discuss if the nerf was needed or not forever. But in reality it doesn't matter. The gap on fights where aff overperforms is way too big, and can't be closed without nerfing affliction into oblivion on everything else. On all the other fights, the nerf won't do anything. The outliers we see at 90% will still be the outliers, and the average player which can't play aff to its maximum or has his lucky moment, won't even notice it. Losing 2-4% is a DPS loss around 50k DPS to 100k DPS for me on Garothi. I can easily offset that by just playing better.

It's nothing. Blizzard just did it to silence the whiners that aff needs a nerf, and as usual they cry for more. But the truth is: Aff can't be fixed with just number tuning, and on average, it doesn't need to be fixed 'cause the gap, IN ABSOLUTE NUMBERS, is very low.

The healing nerf is targeted at mythic+. And, in that particular environment, it is justified.

[MisterBigglez]

Affliction lock is the highest simming spec in the game. They are by far the strongest caster. Affliction used to be extremely good in cleave fights, especially with 3+ targets. Now they top meters single, cleave and multi target fights. Its just getting a bit stupid at this point lol.

This is not true. There are more classes who sim higher and affliction does not top the meters on ST. If you're looking at Varimathras mythic, the reason affliction is much higher compared to the fight on other difficulties is because adds spawn which you can snipe.

[Brewhan]

aff lock best ST spec? gimme a break show me a log that isnt full of a guild allow the lock to stand in fire and avoid mechanics. Lock is pretty average at ST at best now and a lot of their omg top st dps moments is either RNG / fast AF boss kill/ or guild lets them avoid mechanics to parse high. Its probably viable to go demo for pure ST if you have 75 traits and good relics at this point but who wants to manage multiple artifacts this late.

[xuros]

Affliction lock is the highest simming spec in the game. They are by far the strongest caster. Affliction used to be extremely good in cleave fights, especially with 3+ targets. Now they top meters single, cleave and multi target fights. Its just getting a bit stupid at this point lol.

Demo sims higher than Aff...

[Socialhealer]

There was also 28 Warlocks 2 dks that full cleared heroic. Blizzard prob caught wind of the video and went after drain soul .

if blizzard needed that video to realise that blizzard are fucking blind and we can put these nerfs down to the blizzard dog taking a shit on a bingo card and then blizzard buff/nerf where the turds land.

- - - Updated - - -

aff lock best ST spec? gimme a break show me a log that isnt full of a guild allow the lock to stand in fire and avoid mechanics. Lock is pretty average at ST at best now and a lot of their omg top st dps moments is either RNG / fast AF boss kill/ or guild lets them avoid mechanics to parse high. Its probably viable to go demo for pure ST if you have 75 traits and good relics at this point but who wants to manage multiple artifacts this late.

LUL 10 fucking LUL's out of 10.

yeh demo is so good best change from one the the best fucking specs in the game hands down to this other spec?

man you warlocks are on crack fucking delusional.

you don't let the affliction lock stand in fire he stands in fire because it won't kill him rofl.

[kail]

Demo sims higher than Aff...

So does destro. Afflic is below average on ST, Antorus just has so few "Patchwerk" fights. The closest ST measurement we have for Antorus is H Vari, and afflic performs the worse of the 3 lock specs.

[Nihiel]

"More affliction nerfs.... needed?" Bwahahahahahahaha I can't even

This nerf is symbolic at best, it means fucking nothing. Affliction is BROKEN beyond words and will still be miles and miles above anyone else.
You're crying about a 6% nerf to two dots, while your main dmg source of UA is untouched??????

Remember when Antorus released and shadow's ONLY TWO DOTS were nerfed by 12%? TWELVE PERCENT??? Because "apparently" shadow was doing too much dmg and scaling too well LOLOL. Anyone with a brain would know that shadow wouldn't scale well later because of our new tier set emphasising Mind Blast, but nono, let's have a seizure and kneejerk nerf one of the dotters while letting the better scaling one with the better kit run rampant. Great logic.

Lately in farm raids I've been looking at our aff lock compared to myself, and each of his dots account for more dmg than either SWP and VT despite the fact that a 60-second duration VF is buffing spriest dot dmg by 120%. In no world can shadow keep up with affliction, while affliction is immortal and has better utility. Shadow was nerfed into the ground when it actually had impact and meant something, this isn't a nerf worth mentioning because it's fucking February, it happened 2 months too late. Besides, it should've been a 12 % nerf to Agony and Corruption, and UA should also have been nerfed - either that or mastery scaling should have been shut down.

The nerf shadow got broke its scaling by pushing mastery down into the gutter rendering the stat and dots at large useless. Affliction's nerfs are a fucking joke, your dots are basically untouched and your secondary stat scaling is BROKEN as usual. How you cannot fathom this is beyond me.

If you're disagreeing with how brokenly OP affliction is and how little this 6 % nerf means , you're clueless or delusional. Simple as that. All I can say is that it's a fucking joke. Nerf UA by 20 % as well or reduce affliction's mastery effect by 20-25 %, then you'd actually see a nerf similar to what shadow received.

[Deleted]

"More affliction nerfs.... needed?" Bwahahahahahahaha I can't even

This nerf is symbolic at best, it means fucking nothing. Affliction is BROKEN beyond words and will still be miles and miles above anyone else.
You're crying about a 6% nerf to two dots, while your main dmg source of UA is untouched??????

Remember when Antorus released and shadow's ONLY TWO DOTS were nerfed by 12%? TWELVE PERCENT??? Because "apparently" shadow was doing too much dmg and scaling too well LOLOL. Anyone with a brain would know that shadow wouldn't scale well later because of our new tier set emphasising Mind Blast, but nono, let's have a seizure and kneejerk nerf one of the dotters while letting the better scaling one with the better kit run rampant. Great logic.

Lately in farm raids I've been looking at our aff lock compared to myself, and each of his dots account for more dmg than either SWP and VT despite the fact that a 60-second duration VF is buffing spriest dot dmg by 120%. In no world can shadow keep up with affliction, while affliction is immortal and has better utility. Shadow was nerfed into the ground when it actually had impact and meant something, this isn't a nerf worth mentioning because it's fucking February, it happened 2 months too late. Besides, it should've been a 12 % nerf to Agony and Corruption, and UA should also have been nerfed - either that or mastery scaling should have been shut down.

The nerf shadow got broke its scaling by pushing mastery down into the gutter rendering the stat and dots at large useless. Affliction's nerfs are a fucking joke, your dots are basically untouched and your secondary stat scaling is BROKEN as usual. How you cannot fathom this is beyond me.

If you're disagreeing with how brokenly OP affliction is and how little this 6 % nerf means , you're clueless or delusional. Simple as that. All I can say is that it's a fucking joke. Nerf UA by 20 % as well or reduce affliction's mastery effect by 20-25 %, then you'd actually see a nerf similar to what shadow received.

Salty? :3

And nerf numbers you just mentioned there for UA and mastery, were made from your tiers?

You could check the facts, before come here to cry..


Self healing nerf were justified.
Corruption and Agony i still understand..

But when ppl are comparing parses from mythic Antorus, they don't mean anything to progress bosses.. They are always cheesing mechanics from top players..