Alliance Players DID NOT Save Suramar

[baskev]

I been seeing this over and over and over..... All the allied race threads, BFA lore threads..... Alliance players keep saying "well I saved suramar" talking about the Nightborne or Thalyssra.

SO I thought I'd clear it up: What is reflected in-game does not always portray the cannon story that is the back-bone this 20+ year franchise.
WHEN AN EVENT HAPPENS IN GAME THAT BOTH FACTION PLAYERS PLAY THROUGH IT'S FOR GAMEPLAY SAKE. BOTH Alliance and Horde Player-Characters get an equal game-play experience for a customer based product. SO for GAME-PLAY sake we all get the experience.

A small investigation in to the story and lore will give you context. Sometimes its Horde cannon sometimes its Alliance cannon... In this case.....

According to cannon lore it was a "Horde Champion" that did what our player character did.

So Alliance players you DID NOT save Suramar. Your faction partially helped along side the Horde, while the Horde champion was the one to do the player character action......

That combined with the haughty pride of the Night Elves pushed Suramar to the Horde. Alliance stop acting like you're the pride of suramar now a enemy...

Yup. Lore wise....Man sense a lot of hate towards the alliance.
But mr smartass....Do you think any of them give any cents about what cannon is in books etc. ( books/1 faction lore) you are right).
If you look ingame, it was a joint effort. Hell night elfs where there in force to help.

And what does the pride of night elfs have to do with who helped??? Nothing you are just angry now.
Why alliance players are sayings it is a other reason. We helped, we did as much as any hord player. You ( clearly hord) get 2 well written , seen a lot allied races.
We get 2 crappy pieces of shit races.
You so far get 2 cooler races, get new druid classes with new forms while our 2nd druid class still needs a update model. You have had so powerful racials and because of that you get all the top raiders. You ( lore wise) start this war by farming god damm azoroth version of plutonium. etc etc etc.....gosh...why should alliance players be mad. Hell even your allied races are easy to get. pretty much everyone already ( even if you took a brake or start fresh now) have 1 of the races rep etc done. And the other also very fast. While we have 2 very slow reps to grind ....so yeah....maybe look into WHY alliance are so mad.

[Deleted]

yea horde saved suramar

[Raziella]

Regardless of any examples of this kind of thing happening in the past, the fact is Legion was incredibly focused on classes, and not factions, and the player character themselves was leader of a bi-faction army.
The idea that a Horde Hunter was the Master of his entire class, and then went to liberate Suramar while telling half of his troops to stay home is a ludicrous stretch.

Legion, more than any other expansion, makes it obvious that everything accomplished was by the two factions working together to a large extent.

[Heladys]

I personally saved Suramar, several times over.

[Thage]

The Alliance players were certainly integral, because the Suramar storyline does feature minor differences that wouldn't make sense to implement if the Alliance player were supposed to be a placeholder for the Horde PC due to game mechanics. The issue is Tyrande utterly failed at establishing diplomatic ties--she was only there to stop Elisande and backing the Nightfallen was the quickest way to get that done with a minimal risk of Alliance losses. She was openly suspicious and derisive of the Nightfallen while Liadrin was not only sympathetic, but openly advocated for them to consider joining the Horde.

Diplomacy matters and Tyrande is by no means a skilled diplomat. There's a reason the Alliance doesn't usually ask her to go court potential allies rather than one of the more personable leaders like Anduin or pre-bomb Jaina.

[McFuu]

The Alliance players were certainly integral, because the Suramar storyline does feature minor differences that wouldn't make sense to implement if the Alliance player were supposed to be a placeholder for the Horde PC due to game mechanics. The issue is Tyrande utterly failed at establishing diplomatic ties--she was only there to stop Elisande and backing the Nightfallen was the quickest way to get that done with a minimal risk of Alliance losses. She was openly suspicious and derisive of the Nightfallen while Liadrin was not only sympathetic, but openly advocated for them to consider joining the Horde.

Diplomacy matters and Tyrande is by no means a skilled diplomat. There's a reason the Alliance doesn't usually ask her to go court potential allies rather than one of the more personable leaders like Anduin or pre-bomb Jaina.

This sums it up pretty well.

Everytime you encounter Tyrande in Suramar she is giving some attitude about being there, or being a cunt in general. It's actually just as cringy as Alleria is. Being petty over events from 10,000 years ago (1000 for Alleria). She is an awful, petty leader.

[Hitei]

Khadgar specifically says in Silithus that he refuses to take sides.

He is canonically neutral.

The council of six voted at the start of Legion to become neutral once again; that's why Jaina left.

Actually, more accurately, they voted to let the Horde back into the city, not to become a neutral entity.

[Broken Fox]

The Alliance players were certainly integral, because the Suramar storyline does feature minor differences that wouldn't make sense to implement if the Alliance player were supposed to be a placeholder for the Horde PC due to game mechanics. The issue is Tyrande utterly failed at establishing diplomatic ties--she was only there to stop Elisande and backing the Nightfallen was the quickest way to get that done with a minimal risk of Alliance losses. She was openly suspicious and derisive of the Nightfallen while Liadrin was not only sympathetic, but openly advocated for them to consider joining the Horde.

Diplomacy matters and Tyrande is by no means a skilled diplomat. There's a reason the Alliance doesn't usually ask her to go court potential allies rather than one of the more personable leaders like Anduin or pre-bomb Jaina.

Classic case of saying the wrong shit at the wrong time and having it bite you in the ass later. Tyrande’s such a dickhead.

I think there’s a strong chance of the Nightborne taking part in the burning of Teldrassil. They’re camped out in Ashenvale right?

[Goldielocks]

why bash tyranda? using arcane recklessly 1st got the attention of sargeras and we know what happend then, plus elisande did that deal you know with gul'dan. i mean who wouldnt question these nighbourne? seriously i think she treated these nightbourne with more courtesy than they diserved.

Because you don't disrespect recovering addicts? Wtf did you expect to happen? Thalyssra would get on her knees and lick Tyrande's feet?

Tyrande is a garbage diplomat, and a petty fool.

[Spazlord]

To be fair, even in game I reckon more Horde players helped Suramar. Most Alliance players were bitching on the forums about having to do quest chain in Warcraft!

[rogueMatthias]

Alliance were a big part of saving Suramar (it was even a NE that finished off Gul'dan, and Khadgar was pivotal to the success). That doesn't mean the logic and lore is fucked up though.

First thing to remember - there's no immediate threat to Suramar now, there's no real need for the Nightborne to NEED to be part of the Horde for defence purposes as they were neutral with both sides. They could do with help rebuilding but that's all they'd need from the outside world.

Granted, Tyrande wasn't overly friendly and welcoming with her (because of their past history) but there's a big distance between being upset at somebody for not showing what you belive is the proper respect WHEN THEY HELPED YOU, and from then deciding to join all out war against them and helping aid in burning down their cities and launching an offensive in another to kill even more people in the process.

"Granted they helped save my whole city, but she showed disrespect, so I'll help you burn down her entire fucking city and kill everyone in their homes". I mean WTF. It's understandable that Alliance players are pissed about it, it's a huge backstab.

The problem is, like in real life, if you support and aid one group to topple their current corrupt government... it rarely seems to end up in a long term stable government that's any less corrupt. How many times has the US and EU dones this same shit and it came back to bite them in the ass? If you ignore the niceties and in game "reputation", people likely helped her as the less of two evils. If you look at her history, it's not like she's squeaky clean. She helped seal off the city so they could let the rest of the world burn, helped set up the Nightwell, and she already tried a coup to put herself in charge long ago which is why she was in her dilemma in the first place.

Maybe she's just been a bit of an irrational crazy bitch this whole time.

[Selky]

I don't care what the reason is, the end result is that I'll never get invested in WoW lore again because what happened with the Nightborne has retroactively ruined the Suramar story for me. How does making what I did non-canon any better? Why am I even doing something that isn't canon?

It's not just the Nightborne either, it's BS like the Horde's war chief roulette, Aysa and Ji fighting each other again and Maiev's character getting butchered too. The story of WoW is turning into a tyre fire and I'm sick of it.

[Stacko]

Horde helped out Army of Light just as much, and the Void Elves are idiots. Soooo.....

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Uh no. There are Night Elf Magi.

Hell, the Kaldorei even hunt down Maiev for killing Night Elf Magi.

They may not banish it anymore, but they did banish them. That's as factual as it gets.

One such crisis came from the remaining Highborne. The Highborne that had survived the Sundering and had settled alongside their night elf brethren initially tried to assimilate into the new druidic society, but over time they could not ignore the burning addiction to arcane magic their whole race suffered from. These Highborne, led by Dath'Remar, declared the druids cowards for refusing to wield the arcane. Malfurion and the druids warned the Highborne that any use of magic would be punishable by death. Yet, in an attempt to protest the druid's law, Dath'Remar and his followers unleashed a terrible magical storm upon Ashenvale. The night elves could not bring themselves to put so many of their kin to death, so they decided to exile the reckless Highborne from their lands.[15] So the Highborne left Kalimdor, sailing across the sea to the other, newly-formed continent. Now calling themselves high elves, they established the nation of Quel'Thalas.[16]

Taken from wowpedia. Over time, they've allowed mages back in, but that was extremely progressive. Likewise, about the reintegration of magic:

The night elves emerged from their 10,000 year long isolation in the forests of Northern Kalimdor to discover prolific use of magic without the use of the Well of Eternity, something unknown to them but made possible by the implosion of the Well that had dispersed magic from its concentration in the well to the atmosphere. This along with the demons already returned and defeated, Tyrande Whisperwind, finding her people in desperate need of reinforcements and power beyond their current means to face the new challenges to their territories by their enemies and the Cataclysm, and the entire reason for the ban on the use of arcane magic which was to hide Azeroth from the demons of the Twisting Nether in the hopes of preventing a return), was no longer a necessity. She and her husband Malfurion Stormrage, accepted, lifting the millennia long ban of the use of arcane magic for spell and on the Highborne, allowing several of the Highborne to return to night elf society where they entered an alliance that would allow them to train night elves as mages. Although the restriction on magic ended out of necessity, the rift between the people and the Highborne due to the actions the majority of the Highborne at the Queen's palace that led to the first great War would take longer. The humble Mordent understood that the gradual reintegration of magic to their society would be slow process, something the couple appreciated and likely helped to give their consent. Under the agreement, the Highborne would become part of night elf society once more but be allowed to maintain their own identity. However, the reunification has not been completely smooth.

The millennia have not stripped the people's memories of the final days of the Great Sundering and the role of the Highborne. That has caused some difficulty with the re-integration. "There is every intention of the Highborne becoming a part of our society again, but such things cannot and will not happen overnight, this is a process that will have to play out over time" - Malfurion Stormrage,[64] and some night elves have been hostile towards the returned Highborne. These few extremists, stirred up and led by Maiev Shadowsong took lethal actions against them in an attempt to purge night elf society of any reminders of the arcane, but such actions were considered crimes against fellow citizens.[33] The new night elf mages have shown remarkable promise and made incredible strides in the short period of time they've re-embraced their arcane legacy. Such promise and desperate need forced new trainees to the front lines in the campaigns that immediately followed the Cataclysm, however despite their phenomenal progress were still very inexperienced, this was exploited by enemies of the night elves to devastating effect.[65]

So yeah.

[Mic_128]

Alliance were a big part of saving Suramar (it was even a NE that finished off Gul'dan, and Khadgar was pivotal to the success). That doesn't mean the logic and lore is fucked up though.

First thing to remember - there's no immediate threat to Suramar now, there's no real need for the Nightborne to NEED to be part of the Horde for defence purposes as they were neutral with both sides. They could do with help rebuilding but that's all they'd need from the outside world.

Thalyssra however admits that their seclusion was bad and expresses the Nightborne's desire to be apart of the world once more. That doesn't mean "we'll build our city and stay there." The Night Elves made it clear they didn't want anything to do with them, mostly because they are what the 'Highborne' were like, attitudes and all, 10,000 years ago. The only reason the Highborne were allowed back in was because they were a relatively small group that had spent thousands of years in exile and were willing (mostly) to accept the restrictions on their magics from the ruling elves.

When joining the Horde, Thalyssra says basically that they were pleased that the Blood Elves were still allowed to be themselves as well as a part of the Horde. There is no way they wouldn't have spoken with Night Elven magi and heard about their restrictions. Hell, some of the Highborne may even have abandoned the rest of their people to go with them, we know they weren't all happy about the restrictions.

Granted, Tyrande wasn't overly friendly and welcoming with her (because of their past history) but there's a big distance between being upset at somebody for not showing what you belive is the proper respect WHEN THEY HELPED YOU, and from then deciding to join all out war against them and helping aid in burning down their cities and launching an offensive in another to kill even more people in the process.

Firstly, we don't know exactly what sparks the decision to burn down teldrasil. They certainly weren't told that was what they were going to be signing up for. If they had, they might have reconsidered. As it was, it was more them wanting to work with the Blood Elves than joining the Horde.

For all we know there'll be some signs of regret. Heck, for all we know they might have no part in it at all. Garrosh's Mana-bombing of Theramore wasn't exactly approved by all, and I can't see the Tauren being happy with Sylvanas's actions here.

"Granted they helped save my whole city, but she showed disrespect, so I'll help you burn down her entire fucking city and kill everyone in their homes". I mean WTF. It's understandable that Alliance players are pissed about it, it's a huge backstab.

Or "Hey, we just joined these Horde fellows they're really nice and what's this letter s- They burned down what?!"

If you look at her history, it's not like she's squeaky clean. She helped seal off the city so they could let the rest of the world burn, helped set up the Nightwell, and she already tried a coup to put herself in charge long ago which is why she was in her dilemma in the first place.

Yes and Tyrande and many other Night Elves were alive when that happened. I wonder if that might have had something to do with why they didn't want such 'fickle' allies?

[Chain Chungus]

I guess Horde players didn't help free Argus then.

[Mic_128]

I don't care what the reason is, the end result is that I'll never get invested in WoW lore again because what happened with the Nightborne has retroactively ruined the Suramar story for me. How does making what I did non-canon any better? Why am I even doing something that isn't canon?

It's entirely canon that you helped free Suramar, just that everyone forgets you weren't representing the Alliance but your class hall.

[Magnagarde]

It's entirely canon that you helped free Suramar, just that everyone forgets you weren't representing the Alliance but your class hall.

That is why the night elven army and the high elves present did represent the Alliance. The liberation was a joint effort that grinded to a halt at the gates of the Nighthold for both the Alliance and the Horde.

Thalyssra's character chose the Horde afterwards and that is simply it.

[Deleted]

Who killed onyxia?

Who defeated garrosh in orgrimmar?

[HnM]

Maybe think that way: Thalyssra first intended to join the alliance, then Tyrande fucked her off so she went to the Horde. Thank your most precious fanatic of Elune "Malfurion-oh-my-love" Tyrande. God damn, I would make the same choice if I had to choose betweend Orcs and Tyrande.

That's rich coming from "De loa choose u Sylvanas mon" in his dying breath