Saurfang and Anduin [Spoilers-Speculation?]

[baskev]

Baskev I like you m8.... but I realy, realy hate you for one simple reason.... it's Horde. Not Hord.

i don't see you use allianc instead of alliance so come on XD

maybe bad. :P . And i sometimes do that also ( ally's, aliance ) dyslectic as fuck here. :P

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[QUOTE=F[/QUOTE]riendlyimmolation;48863877]The Alliance did not know Sylvanas's goals.
Yeah they did not know. Only that she is up to not good. If it was anything good for lets say dalaran. They would have said: he we are heading towards stormheim for the ageais. But they did not. All they knew is that she took her personal guard and a large fleet there.
( btw this is all because 1 person call this pearl harbor witch is kinda insane if you ask me)

riendlyimmolation;48863877]
The only one here confused is you.
what an awful fucking comparison no joke one of the worst you have done. Somehow the Alliance knows Sylvanas is going after Eyir but doesn't know the fleet is looking for the Aegis?

Nope...you are apparently.
This is awful but using pearl harbor is not? okay that is F'ed up on so many levels.
Its a perfect comparison. Because that is what happened lore wise in game. They knew the fleet was there and sylvanas. They knew it was Forsaken fleet ( not a horde one). And both Genn And sylvanna's where there for other things then the aegis.
And again, i am only challenging the fact that it was not pearl harbor.

riendlyimmolation;48863877]
That is fucking in-game lore.

What is. That Saurfang wants to talk to Anduin, yes that is ingame lore.
Or that Sylvanas was there to enslave people, instead of the aegis. Yes that is also ingame lore. Hell there is a cinematic for it.
And yes Genn was also not there for they Aegis. He was there to see why sylvannas went with a forsaken fleet, instead of a horde fleet to stormheim. He smelled foul play ( pun intended)

riendlyimmolation;48863877]
The New Plague,[1][2] also known as the Forsaken Blight or blight (not to be confused with the original blight)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/New_Plague

Also what type of fucking logic is that?

( and i already said it was a forsaken blight )

Do you know the word logic?
What logic that is?
Okay, reasons why Saurfang might ( not will) help the alliance. Use of a weapon that is closely related to something that hurt him ( by loss of the army that attacked the wrathgate).
- Blight is a new version of the original blight, but it is still a form of undead poison.
- Forsaken blight is used on army at wrathgate. Saurfang boy survive's (as on of the few) and is captured by the lich king and twisted into a servant.
- Son of saurfang die's.
- Sylvana's uses the same kind of blight from the wrathgate to poison her city, so that the alliance can not enter it.
- Saurfang might (not will) have problems with the usage of such a weapon.

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[QUOTE=Halfdrop;48864090]Genn, by his own admission, didn't know what Sylvanas' forces were doing in Stormheim
Nope, the only thing he knows, is that the >forsaken< not the horde was going to stormheim. So he smelt foul play. ( pun intended)

I said the fleet was there to help the Horde player get the Aegis, and I proved it. Sylvanas went after her own b-plot, but the fleet was there for the Aegis.

It was a forsaken fleet.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.

Actually I was talking to @Qualia about Genn's attack in Stormheim. He said it was minor, I said it was a major attack on an unprovoked fleet that had no intention of attacking the Alliance.

>>this is canon<<

Yup you could be right. Not disputing that.
Just pissed someone thinks its okay to say that this was like pearl harbor, kinda sick.
And in the end, alliance was right. Sylvana's used her fleet to go there to get her immortality back.
And if the forsaken fleet was there for the aegis, we should have know that by word from a certain irritating mage in dalaran. So if they where there for the greater good they might have told that?

He wasn't captured. He died BEFORE Putress attacked because he ran into the Lich King like a dum-dum.

Yup. I said it might be a reason for it. All saurfang knows is that they fought at the wrathgate. Blight was fired by the rebel forsaken. And LK got his son.

[Darktbs]

@Friendlyimmolation said "The Alliance did not know Sylvanas's goals.", and you said :




By Genn's own admission, you were wrong. The only thing they knew is that she was there and looking for something that started with the letter "v". At the very beginning it's obvious Genn and rodgers are looking for a reason to fight



They even went against orders to do so.

And?

They had the information that she was doing something and needed to keep an eye on the operation.

They knew she was doing something, not the exacts.

So it doesn't really matter.

Idc if they disobeyed.Their suicide attack was bad planned and killed more Alliance than Forsaken.

[ello]

@Darktbs @baskev

Ah okay, it sounds like neither of you dispute the fact that Greymane suiciding the Skyfire was an unprovoked act of war against a peaceable fleet on the basis of "I'm suspicious" and "we knew they were there". And that he had no idea what Sylvanas' goals were in the region. Good talk.

[Frontenac]

@Darktbs @baskev

Ah okay, it sounds like neither of you dispute the fact that Greymane suiciding the Skyfire was an unprovoked act of war against a peaceable fleet on the basis of "I'm suspicious" and "we knew they were there". And that he had no idea what Sylvanas' goals were in the region. Good talk.

To be honest this whole thing is silly. Greymane was silly to attack the Forsaken fleet. But Anduin was just as silly to send a warship, the Alliance's finest, a King and an admiral just to "observe" the enemy. Seems to me that a few SI:7 agents would have done the trick.

However, calling that an unprovoked act of war is pushing it. Greymane went against Anduin's orders, true, but in the Alliance's point of view, they were already at war with the Horde since the Broken Shore fiasco.

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Saurfang will remain loyal to the Horde, but I bet there will be a power struggle by the end of BfA. Sylvanas may remain Warchief, but Saurfang, Bane, Rokkhan, Lorthemar and maybe some allied race leaders will force her to change her plans.

[Darktbs]

To be honest this whole thing is silly. Greymane was silly to attack the Forsaken fleet. But Anduin was just as silly to send a warship, the Alliance's finest, a King and an admiral just to "observe" the enemy. Seems to me that a few SI:7 agents would have done the trick.

However, calling that an unprovoked act of war is pushing it. Greymane went against Anduin's orders, true, but in the Alliance's point of view, they were already at war with the Horde since the Broken Shore fiasco.

Actually the whole mission was to support the hero in recovering the Aegis.The Observation was a "Unofficial"mission to quote Roger.

[wheelmandan]

I called it a pearl harbor because it was preventative strike that heavily damaged the Horde's navy. Hell, based on the quest text from the stormwind extraction the whole reason the Horde is seeking out a partnership is to rebuild their fleet.

sounds like a big deal to meeeeee

garrosh did a pear harbor taking theramore was more of a civilians then Military wait on top of the people he made them fight one another. garrosh was way worst.

[Thage]

That'd be good way for me to save some money from this game if they do that. It'd show that they literally have no idea how to write the Horde and that they think that Humans, specificly Anduin is an actual perfect being to even have Saurfang turn his back on Orgrimmar.

I don't understand why everyone in this thread thinks Saurfang's suddenly going to up and betray the Horde because he's staying back to buy the escapees time. Saurfang has always had that mentality of "first onto the battlefield and last off." He exemplifies all the best aspects of the old Horde without any of its excesses and negative traits--he's the sort of orc people like Dave Kosak kept trying to whitewash the Old Horde into all being like until they gave up on that plan.

Everyone else fighting for the Horde, and he leaves? Sylvanas has done nothing to hurt the Horde,

In the battle for Lordaeron, she leaves a currently-unknown amount of Horde soldiers to die horribly as she plaguebombs the area surrounding the Undercity and the ruins of Capital City until they're Chernobyl'd into an inhospitable wasteland. Saurfang even points this out to her and she carries the scorched-earth plan regardless. Furthermore, her actions in Stormheim very much hurt the Horde's war efforts against the Legion and likely demoralized the Forsaken to the point that the Desolate Council managed to earn as much clout as it did in her absence. Never mind her willful ignorance in dealing with Varimathras for years before he turned traitor and joined in on Putress's coup (which again cost numerous Horde lives as her refusal to believe Varimathras wasn't broken led directly to the plaguebombing at Angrathar and the countless Forsaken forcibly put back under mind control for use as cannon fodder by him).

Saying she's done nothing to harm the Horde since joining it is false. She doesn't need to have become a genocidal maniac to harm the Horde because she's done a perfectly good job of it in her constant pursuits to put the Forsaken and, namely, herself first in everything she does.

she can't be ''Garrosh'' because she hasn't gone around rounding Darkspear trolls to shoot them behind the head. She hasn't gone around disrespecting and putting down the other Horde leaders and races, I'm not saying that she cares about them, I'm saying that she's not a moron, she'll always put the Horde first because it means her and the Forsaken's well being.

When has Sylvanas ever put the Horde first? As Warchief, her most notable actions have been to damage the Horde war effort in pursuit of a relic that would benefit the Forsaken (and in doing so, benefit herself as she views the Forsaken as a buffer between herself and the hellish afterlife awaiting her) and to play on the Horde's sense of pride by knowing when to yell "For the Horde!" without any regard for the Horde itself. Even at the victory banquet, she barely pays any attention and only seems interested when Gallywix shows her the Azerite, likely again for the potential it holds for the Forsaken--the preview chapter of Before the Storm goes to lengths to show that she has no interest in the mantle of Warchief and cares only about the Forsaken, treating the rest of the Horde as useful tools in advancing their cause.

I'm obviously only talking about the first arc of BFA I don't know how things will go afterwards, maybe she'll learn to get closer to them, but as of right now, I don't like AT ALL this move that they are implaying with Saurfang. It could also implay that he cares more about his ''word'' and ''honor'' to a human, to Varian, than Orgrimmar, than the Orcs, than the Horde.

The only thing they're implying is that, like any orc worth his salt, his word is his bond and he cares about debts unpaid. That doesn't mean he's going to betray the Horde and if he turns on Sylvanas, it's because she is a threat to the Horde's continued survival just like Garrosh was--and if she's willingly plaguebombing Horde troops during a withdrawal just because it's more convenient than waiting for them to extract themselves from the battlefield, she's very quickly going to have more Horde lives on her hands than Garrosh ever did unless she changes her tune fast.

[wheelmandan]

saurfang is like. Martokm like I am a loyal soldier of the Empire. I would rather die than dishonor my uniform. "
– General Martokm- but i have feeling thrall will say something along the lines short of "Great men do not seek power, they have power thrust upon them". something like that or thrall can become leader. but chris is gone from wow so.. who knows.

[Arrashi]

garrosh did a pear harbor taking theramore was more of a civilians then Military wait on top of the people he made them fight one another. garrosh was way worst.

Actually all civilians evacuated theramore back then. It was purely military.

[Alex86el]

the death of sylvannas would make genn happy, but i feel that jaina would still want to kill them all, she wanted varian to kill them all at the end of SoO, even though they dealt with garrosh at that point

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nah all the emo weebs swaped to ally and are playing emoelves

it is the sad truth. cant argue with that.

[Zulkhan]

The bolded part is very subjective, though. One might say that the action of picking a fight / starting a war with the Alliance - a major one beyond all minor skirmishes that happened here and then from WoD until now - will hurt the Horde (and Alliance, but I don't think Saurfang care that much about the Alliance). Especially if he realized that Sylvanas is doing that for her (and possibly the Forsaken)'s own good instead of benefits for the Horde as a whole, viewing Horde's people as her shields or arrows instead of just people.

This is just speculation and the lack of info is still too important to make this a valid point whatsoever. Saurfang is the guy who was shown to not particularly trust Sylvanas and keep a strict an eye on her. And yet this is the same guy who fought on the frontlines of the siege of Lordaeron and got all motivated and inspired by Sylvanas' rallying cry. It's also the guy that reacted to Anduin's words with a small degree of mockery. How we're supposed to believe that out of the blue Sylvanas has become an "issue" big enough to discuss it with that very enemy's leader? I can't be the only one who just doesn't find any logic in this theory.

To clarify, I don't think that Saurfang will be against Sylvanas right now (or will ever be), but I won't be surprised if he found himself more accepting towards Anduin after the Battle for Lordaeron and willing to listen to what his views and goals of this war are - which might sow some seeds of doubt inside him.

Literally why? Saurfang is not Thrall. He's an old style Orc through and through. Words alone can't do much to make him give a damn about Anduin besides a willingness to not kill him on view out of respect for Varian.

For all we know, the alliance wants only sylvanas. Maybe if the horde and alliance could operate together against her, there would finally be peace.

Seriously, fuck that. Do we really need such a blatant rehashing of Garrosh's arc? Wasn't the first time shitty enough?

I'm also pretty sure Jaina wants a lot more than Sylvanas. This time she'll not give up her desire to dismantle the Horde like she did in MoP, not a second time.

Remember that Varian stayed Magi's blade in ICC, and allowed Saurfang the ability to recover his son.

And Saurfang is honorable.

Yeah, Varian. Not Anduin. Anduin is just Varian's son. At most Saurfang would spare Anduin's life out of respect for Varian once.

Sylvans ripped an animal's head off it's body. The amount of force required to pull a skull from it's spine is fucking incredible.

I'd argue getting one's hands around a wolf's neck is a lot less tricky than get them around Saurfang's. And orcs, well, they're histerically resilient.

i think in war crimes book he said something like the judgment is bullshit and would call makgora with garrosh?

Kinda, yes. For Saurfang the best way to judge Garrosh was having a Mak'gora with him. If Garrosh won, he would have earned the chance to atone for his crimes and rebuild his reputation from zero; if he lost, well, it would have been the end of him.

I think he learned his lesson with Garrosh and was too late to act to stop him before he went insane, that's probably why he wanted to have Mak'Gora with him in the War Crimes novel if the punishment down to him. Hopefully he realises how much a threat Sylvannas is to the Horde. It's time the Horde had a deserving Warchief again and he would be perfect.

Come on, do anyone believe that after "orcish Arthas" had his fall from grace we would get the same exact shit except more hysterically predictable?

"Yes, we're going to put the most hilariously questionable and controversial Horde leader in the Warchief position and play this thing out as bland, boring and predictable as you could get"

Get real, for fuck's sake.

If you smart person you understand the only thing that keeps Alliance and Horde from peace is Sylvanas.

That's deluded as you can get. And Ashran say hi.

His character is precisely why I believe he would... He is honorable to a fault, that is what he holds above all else, and if he feels that Sylvanas has gone off the deep end, that she is without honor and is not upholding what he feels is best for the Horde, he would turn on her just like he did Garrosh.

Except it's exactly that honorable side of him that would unlikely make him comfortable in plotting with the enemy, behind his own faction's back, to dethrone Sylvanas. Between the Mak'gora or simply getting the support of the orcs and other Horde leaders, there are plenty of way more "honorable" ways to get the deed done without doing something as shameful as that.

[Taeldorian]

Anduins father let Saurfang take his kids body from ICC out of respect. Saurfang knows the alliance is not evil and has just as much “respect and honor” as the horde does. Unless they retconned the events during ICC I can’t see him forgetting the favor Varian did for Saurfang just out of blatant respect.

So who knows? Maybe he’s talking to Anduin or maybe he’s buying his crew some time. Don’t know yet.

I think there’s plenty of potential with the AvH/sylvanas plotline. I don’t think they’re going to make it predictable and I don’t think it’ll end how garroshs arc did.

[Schattenlied]

Except it's exactly that honorable side of him that would unlikely make him comfortable in plotting with the enemy, behind his own faction's back, to dethrone Sylvanas. Between the Mak'gora or simply getting the support of the orcs and other Horde leaders, there are plenty of way more "honorable" ways to get the deed done without doing something as shameful as that.

Sylvanas would never agree to Mak'gora.

He may have support of others already, and is going to Anduin as well, because he respects him, as he respected his father. He knows Anduin is not evil, he knows Anduin wants peace, and most of the other Horde leaders know this as well... Sylvanas herself likely knows it but just doesn't care.

[Octavius]

I see this way: saurfang will never plot with the alliance. Would be even a serious fall in terms of what and how the character is. Bad written. But, could be he went talking with anduin for something like "if she goes too far, I'll mak'gora her and then you dull alliance dudes will leave the horde in peace/not taking advantage". Or, there was something personal between the two, which is completely dark for us, now. Or he was simply buying time and let's go on.

PS: A warchief refusing mak'gora is politically a dead one, I guess. The warchief is "the strongest" among the horde ranks, if not literal, at least has to be considered among the best. And is an honor duel, I doubt the warchief could refuse.

[Qualia]

This is just speculation and the lack of info is still too important to make this a valid point whatsoever. Saurfang is the guy who was shown to not particularly trust Sylvanas and keep a strict an eye on her. And yet this is the same guy who fought on the frontlines of the siege of Lordaeron and got all motivated and inspired by Sylvanas' rallying cry. It's also the guy that reacted to Anduin's words with a small degree of mockery. How we're supposed to believe that out of the blue Sylvanas has become an "issue" big enough to discuss it with that very enemy's leader? I can't be the only one who just doesn't find any logic in this theory.

I was talking about the future. As I said in the part you quoted below, I don't think Saurfang would be going against Sylvanas now (if he ever will). However, I won't rule out the possibility that whatever he is going to talk with Anduin might become a seed for that later (again, if he ever will). As that was speculation for the future, fighting together with / for Sylvanas during BfL doesn't mean much as there can be many possible events that may change his mind. If Saurfang is going leave Sylvanas' Horde, it wouldn't be too far off if one of the reasons for that is that he interpreted Sylvanas' action as damaging to the Horde sometimes later - possibly a result from seeing how Anduin treat his soldiers during BfA, the talk, and maybe some other events. Shampro was saying that Sylvanas has done nothing to hurt the Horde, so I pointed out that her action can be seen as hurting the Horde depends on the perspective.

Literally why? Saurfang is not Thrall. He's an old style Orc through and through. Words alone can't do much to make him give a damn about Anduin besides a willingness to not kill him on view out of respect for Varian.

But it wasn't just words. Not only Anduin spared Saurfang life, he also healed his wounds and ordered soldiers to treat Saurfang with respect - all that just because he respected Saurfang as a man of honor. That's a lot more than usual treatment for war prisoner and could've made Saurfang realized that the "boy king", while young, does carry with him concept of honor and that at least Anduin among the Alliance wasn't out to murder Horde members unnecessarily.

[Magnagarde]

I have a theory: The Loa told Vol'jin to make Syvanas warchief cause they knew she would screw everyone on Azeroth up as hell, so all leaders decide it is time to unite once and for all to blast away Banshee Biatch and her f*** budddy Nathanos.
<3 --> Peace, cookies and unicorns for all!

Don't take this too serious btw.

The Loa of death the players quest for enjoys having more of the dead and seeing more fall in battle.. It's not a far fetch to assume that it specifically spoke to a shadow hunter such as Vol'jin in order to promote Sylvanas.

[madokbro]

The importance of mak'gora and other Orcish traditions should diminish with the role of Orcs in the New Horde. They no longer seem to be the dominant nation within the Horde. Makes sense, considering their losses starting with MoP.

However, refusing to participate would certainly lose Sylvanas some points with the Orcs. Though this is not as important as it might seem, since the Horde has moved past its tribal and savage identity and is now both a power bloc comprised of vastly different peoples, and a brotherhood of outcasts. There will be enough Orcs willing to work with the Warchief, enough to set machinations into motion to change general Orcish opinion.

[Deleted]

Don't think Saurfang is gnna spill the beans on Sylvanas. Think his decision not to escape SW was motivated exactly how he said it: to buy the others time.

Saurfang is old, he just got denied an honorable death, meanwhile there are two prisoners to be extracted vital to the Horde's success in the coming war.
Anduin isn't gnna kill him, so he can't win or lose really.

I just really hope he's not gnna be one of those characters that's hyped up for (re)entering the spotlight only to kill him off (Vol'jin, Rastakhan as rumours have it). I'll h8 Blizzard forever.

[Deleted]

I don't think he betrays the Horde, he's probably trying to buy the infiltrators some time. Which fails as his escorts probably tell Anduin about the jailbreak that's going on.

What I could see Saurfang doing is focusing Anduin's hate of the Horde more towards Sylvanas and her inner circle. Remind him of how he and Baine got along swingingly and tell him very few within the Horde really like Sylvanas. So he'd actually try to "aim" Anduin.

The way I see it Saurfang is loyal to the Horde and the idea behind it, not to a Warchief. Those are replaceable.

[Skoll Shorties]

We aren't getting a Garrosh 2.0 or a Siege of Orgrimmar again. Saurfang will change the Horde inside not outside. If they do this repetition i'm going to be angry.