Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[Speaknoevil]

Cloak is fucking insane I’m surprised it isn’t a 3 minute CD

Are you even 1800

Some of the things people say.

[lolpve]

So are there are any changes to get excited about? All I'm reading are big nerfs to survivability and find weakness returning so that "subtlety" goes back to having a playstyle like a warrior. Nothing about this expansion makes me want to go and buy it.

[Deleted]

So are there are any changes to get excited about? All I'm reading are big nerfs to survivability and find weakness returning so that "subtlety" goes back to having a playstyle like a warrior. Nothing about this expansion makes me want to go and buy it.

then dont buy it, noone is forceing you too

[Deleted]

Then don't buy it? Noone is forceing you to buy it

[lolpve]

Then don't buy it? Noone is forceing you to buy it

What a stupid post.

[elfporn]

Are you even 1800

Some of the things people say.

you should be more specific.

We were talking about haste scaling being added to bleeds and poisons (nightblade unconfirmed) and the tie in with bleeds lumped into assination's mastery.

On the topic of survivability. Even with the nerfs, rogue is by far the class with the best survivability in the game - just under tanks. The cloak nerf and the feint nerf, so early in testing, is a way for them to get testing data and feedback. Kneejerk reaction is a general outcry to nerfs. Most people agree with having feint nerfed, but would like its cost reduced. The cloak nerf is more serious though - it's not likely to stay such a long cd; they've tried it before and reverted the long cd back to a short one.

But then, pvp templates are a thing now, and it's a simple thing for them to add a cd to feint and increase the cd of cloak, and then, lazily, make those cd reductions a pvp talent.

in pve it's nice to have them the way they are now: those cooldowns don't mean rogues are being stacked in progression except in world firsts where they need every advantage.

[Speaknoevil]

But then, pvp templates are a thing now, and it's a simple thing for them to add a cd to feint and increase the cd of cloak, and then, lazily, make those cd reductions a pvp talent.

in pve it's nice to have them the way they are now: those cooldowns don't mean rogues are being stacked in progression except in world firsts where they need every advantage.

I see.

Seeing these changes as a sub rogue who only PvPs is nervewracking though, seeing as you can be 100 to 0 in a stormbolt->earthshock even if you prefeint it. Feint is one of the only reasons you can even stay offensive as a rogue because you are so squishy.

[elfporn]

I see.

Seeing these changes as a sub rogue who only PvPs is nervewracking though, seeing as you can be 100 to 0 in a stormbolt->earthshock even if you prefeint it. Feint is one of the only reasons you can even stay offensive as a rogue because you are so squishy.

Right. Does that happen on the alpha? Rogues aren't the only class getting changes. I do recognize that survivability is balanced differently in pvp, even though we're godlike survivalists in pve.

[dcc626]

What a stupid post.

pot. kettle. black.

[Master Guns]

Id love to know what blizzards process is for selecting beta testers, as I’ve played this game religiously for 13 years and never gotten an invite to a beta, despite opting in for all

[Crookids]

For anyone playing Alpha - Tell me now if Sin's go to will be bleed spec or any spec requiring Exsanguinate. never really liked it, so Ill just switch classes or spec before it's too late...

Please don’t be foolish and judge a class or spec based on Alpha gameplay let alone any gameplay pre-hotfix after live changes. It’s good to provide feedback and critique changes but panicking and/or lack of interest in a class based on a singular spec/change isn’t a constructive methodology and/or ideology (respectively).

With Sin getting execute damage and adding a proc looks like Sin is headed in good direction. If they could polish MOP style Sin I think it will be quite fun.


As for Outlaw, in my opinion they should have made it a ranged spec or allowed for a ranged sub-spec through talent choices. With the lack of ranged classes, it would have brought more to the table. However, with their philosophy on making classes feel like classes and not like the spec you’ve chosen — I doubt that’s going to happen and that seems to be what their changes are stemming from.

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Right. Does that happen on the alpha? Rogues aren't the only class getting changes. I do recognize that survivability is balanced differently in pvp, even though we're godlike survivalists in pve.

That was a wonderful niche to have as a raider. I truly hope they don’t bring us down to the rest of melee’s survivabolity or lack thereof. However, it’s possibly the survability we have grown accustomed to will be gear choices through the new artifact system.

[RobertoCarlos]

Id love to know what blizzards process is for selecting beta testers, as I’ve played this game religiously for 13 years and never gotten an invite to a beta, despite opting in for all

I know your computer type has something to do with it.

They release beta invites to top end users all the way down to the bottom so you get more variance in the testing with different strength computer systems.

How much you've actually played beta's in the past counts too.

And if you are a streamer/well known voice that gives positive feedback often you can expect the invite in the mail the next day

[shoegazing]

you havent changed a bit have you?

I never said it justifies anything, my original argument was:
sub in pve is in a very good spot design wise, to which the reaction was "yeah but gouge"
to which I reacted "yes, I love gouge, but since it isnt really part of pve it's not relevant to my point"

and since you're one of the biggest crybabies when it comes to the awful state of wow pvp, I find it surprising that you didnt get what I mean by the "pvp is dead" comment.

i want gouge back more than anything in this world, because that ability to me has been one of the most iconic rogue abilities ever since vanilla. and it pains me dearly to lose it unless I'm outlaw.

but that doesnt mean sub pve wise isnt completely fine without it.

also yeah, every single button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to me as a player. of course it has to be, and gouge was relevant, albeit in a limited fashion (dungeons mostly) so that argument doesnt even work.

I apologize, I misunderstood the meaning of your post.

It is not enough however for Sub to be in a good spot PvE wise alone. This is the most iconic and legendary spec in the history of WoW PvP. It's the spec that was played by Neilyo AND Reckful AND Djpikaboo. The spec is absolutely legendary, anyone who ever really got into WoW PvP at some point has an appreciation for what the Subtlety Rogue means to the game.

So it is not acceptable to lose all of that as a cost to bringing Sub PvE to where it is. This is a pure melee dps class with 3 specs. If Subtlety's old design, in all of its brilliance, was not to the liking of the PvE crowd, they had two other great Rogue specs to choose from.

The changes that have been made to the spec are too drastic and destructive for PvP on a number of levels all across the spectrum from Class Fantasy (i.e. why did my character that I've played since I was 14 years old in 2004, literally half of my life, suddenly forget how to make and use Crippling Poison) to Playstyle and Mechanics (why is the hit and run Restealthing spec unable to use Crippling Poison to kite enemies anymore?).

It is absolutely disgusting what has been done to the spec in Legion by a team of designers who never stopped to ask what we already loved about the spec we were already choosing to play. Returning Gouge and basic Poisons to spec, or equivalent functionality under Sub's stupid new "Class Fantasy", is the absolute bare minimum that the designers can do to make this right.

And no, not every button in the spellbook needs to be relevant to any one player in particular. There are hugely diverse playstyles in this game. Some buttons might be relevant to Alice, but not to Bob, while some other buttons are relevant to Bob but not to Steve, and that is just fine. The game is worse when the classes are forced to be one size fits all.

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What shaunika said, you havn’t changed a bit. You go right on ahead and “get what you want”. And when you get CCed in the middle of executing your burst in pvp and proceed to get shit on, just think “i got what i wanted”

Making sub 100% reliant on burst windows is a bad idea - they tried to mitigate that going into legion and half assed it.

Now, if they keep it like it is on the alpha, any interuption in that burst window and you become a limp dick monkey. It’s most likely that they will replace the 30% dmg during dance talent with FW so that it makes people like you feel warm and fuzzy, even though there is no significant difference between the benefit the two effects give. If they don’t? Sub’s abilities will be nerfed to compensate, and that burst window becomes even more important.

And gouge? It’s another interupt in pvp, unless you’re solo. It’s a disorient that’s all too easily broken by damage.

That's funny I never complain about getting CC'd on my Dance because unlike some people apparently I don't press my Dance button at stupid times with no awareness of my surroundings it sounds like if you were having a difficulty with the old design of the spec your issues might have been related to awareness / L2P / gitgut / PEBKAC ("problem exists between keyboard and chair") type issues

Similarly it's unsurprising that you would look at Gouge and see only an additional interrupt for when you get juked on their Kick. If you had any nuanced understanding at all, which you don't, you would understand the value of Gouging to setup Cyclones, Gouging another Rogue to get Feint down before Kidney Shot, Gouging an enemy to get away for a restealth, etc etc etc....

[elfporn]

It's worth noting that blizzard still designs for pve first and foremost, and then pvp. Your worldview doesn't encompass or allow for pve, and so you're mortally offended when they take this spec that you worship (you should hear yourself) and implement their designs. You are (amazingly) still butthurt about legion.

The best answer to your hurt feelings is that they implemented a policy across all classes and specs to increase the contrast between them all. This lead to survival hunters and outlaw rogues(among many other things). It also led to poisons being assination only, and sub's abilities becoming more shadow/stealth-focused. This policy is still in place and being refined. You won't get crippling poison back no matter how much you get on your knees.

You can't sit there and tell me that you don't get CCed when you dance, maybe not everytime of course, but you're not perfect. Awareness of your surroundings doesn't extend to watching someone press the "stun" button on their keyboard. In a controlled pvp environment, you might know when/if they've used stuns. And i don't pvp, i havn't done it since i got glad in s1 and s3. It's a waste of my time, and the arena system is abhorrent. The game is not built for pvp first - any balancing issues were fucked because of pve. Evidenced by the extremes they went to in legion with the pvp templates.

As for gouge - Please explain to me o god of pvp, how a 3 second disorient lets you escape long enough for a re-stealth. Anyone with one hand up their ass and one on their keyboard will be able to keep you in combat. You gouge to setup for cyclones? understandable. Reduces counterable time. How often are you able to use gouge effectively in a multi-player pvp environment? are your teammates that dialed in to whatever you're doing at all times? If so, bravo. It's still a 3 second disorient that is easily broken by damage and irrelevant for pve content. It would also be a wasted pvp talent. There are more important things.


We've been on this merry-go-round before, iirc people on here shouted you down because you're an elitist who feels that the sub spec should be left to pvpers only, and that pve has ruined your precious game, and anyone who disagrees with anything you say is wrong because you say you're right. And nothing has changed since then. How do you fit your head through your front door?

[RobertoCarlos]

shoegazing's tone may need some work but i do sympathize with him.

The legion spec reworks was a case of too much at once and they missed the mark. Some turned out alright but I wouldnt consider the rogue class in general in that bracket.

They gutted our toolkit so we could get 7 different spells with shadow in the name for the sake of class "diversity"

[Deleted]

been playing a ton of alpha this weekend and outlaw is amazing

How can outlaw without curse of the dreadblades and loaded dice as a talent be amazing? Genuinely curious.

[Vojka]

Are you even 1800

Some of the things people say.

It is, I'm not necessarily saying it's overpowered, it's just a very very strong defensive, it negates alot of things. No need to get snappy about it.

[Sforza]

Does subtlety keep the 2 charges of shadowstep in BfA?

[telygroar]

What you miss dearly atm :

Outlaw : blunderbluss. Hooo, how you miss this little burst of damage. You miss the little aoe damage/heal too since you do shit on aoe damage. The energy regen is lacking too but its because of the premade char.

Sub : the fucking 30% passive evade § Also you miss the artifact talent.

Assassination : choice poison bomb vs 5 combo at start. Well, its the aim of this

All specs : damage. The change for ap damage vs weapon damage need some more probing we're here for this !

EDIT : yes sub keep the 2 charges of shs.

[tru]

So I noticed on one of those might be the first alpha build there was some weapon damage modifiers and now I'm seeing more attack power based so is everything going to attack power now?