Do both Maiev and Illidan lack character development?

[Aucald]

That's kind of what I mean though; that scene happens, and then immediately gets swept under the rug. I actually got hyped at that point because it seemed like we were finally going to get some conflict between the characters, but it's never brought up again. I would've adored it if that moment caused a schism between Illidan's followers and the Army of the Light. It would've also created some much-needed emotional investment in Turalyon (who also suffers in the interchangeable hero role) if he remained angry and distrustful after Illidan murdered the creature he'd been following for the last thousand years. That could've branched out into, say, Turalyon being reluctant to join the Alliance post-Antorus, giving the writers all sorts of juicy character stuff to work with going forward.

A lot of this, as unfortunate as it is, is a result of trying to tell a story in a module MMORPG format - it's difficult to have dynamic narrative such as what you're looking for when your story is constrained into a stagged If/Then/Else construction of triggers and outcomes. Much of those types of interactions become fodder for short stories or novels where there's narrative freedoms to do the kinds of things you've outlined. They made a number of leaps and bounds in that department with Legion and even with WoD (in terms of tying the story to the game), but they're not really at the point of being able to paint a living, breathing world with in-game elements just yet. For the example of Turalyon mistrusting Illidan how do you represent that in-game? An occasional angry emote toward Illidan? A sidebar-like tableau where he grouses at Illidan about killing Xe'ra? For something like that you'd want something juicy, as you said, but there's not a hook on which to place it. Perhaps it will come up again in "Before the Storm."

It's the same deal when Illidan opens the portal to Argus. Khadgar seems aghast at what he's done for a moment, but then everyone just seems to go along with Illidan's idea and they never question it again. What if Khadgar + co. thought we weren't strong enough to take on the Legion homeworld yet, and spent the rest of the expansion trying to seal the opening before Sargeras did something crazy to them (like stabbing Azeroth with a giant sword)?

There's all sorts of fantastic interpersonal conflict a character like Illidan can spark in a story, but in Legion it never really leads anywhere. I enjoyed those scenes with Illidan, but only in isolation, because as soon as the story moves on it just going back to being very standard generic heroes vs generic bad guys fare.

I think Khadgar was just shocked and appalled that Illidan had done what he did, but I don't know if he was ultimately against it (and he joins the Argus offensive himself willingly enough). I agree there's more that could be done to make WoW a more dynamic and essentially "breathing" world - and hopefully BfA takes the advances in Legion and iterates on them some more. I like seeing NPC tableaus, discussions between important characters that the PC isn't a direct party to (such as Vereesa and Alleria going on about Sylvanas on the Vindicaar). Little flourishes like that make the experience more immersive in the total sense.

[pateuvasiliu]

I would argue that Illidan's story changed pretty radically with his reintroduction - from pure anti-hero to something closer to an outright hero, while still keeping a few anti-hero characteristics in his portrayal. Maiev has been pretty static since WC3: TFT, she took a tumble in "Stormrage" but her current portrayal is much like her previous one, with perhaps just a touch of her edge abraded by serial humiliations and setbacks.

He's still antihero as fuck, he destroyed a Naaru so that he could carry on doing things his way and he opened a gateway between Argus and Azeroth.

[Aucald]

He's still antihero as fuck, he destroyed a Naaru so that he could carry on doing things his way and he opened a gateway between Argus and Azeroth.

He's still got anti-hero qualities, I agree - but I would argue his pure anti-hero credentials got a little polluted with more heroic qualities in Legion. The end-result has him skewing a bit more toward the Magnificent Bastard trope as opposed to the pure anti-hero trope.

[Arrashi]

He's still antihero as fuck, he destroyed a Naaru so that he could carry on doing things his way and he opened a gateway between Argus and Azeroth.

Actually he destroyed naaru because said naaru was crazy asshole with tendency to brainwash people.

[Dagoth Ur]

I kinda liked that whole Illidan arc. Even though his story went through "correction process", in WoW I find anything that isn't just straight up hero or villain kinda refreshing. It could've probably be done much more naturally if they knew what they wanna do with him back then in TBC.

Maiev could use some work though. Her character just feels too dependent on Illidan. She and Wardens definitely have potential, they just need to decide what they wanna with them apart from being world quest bounty hunters.

[Spichora]

Maiev has this very wierd character, one side she is this vengeance possessed mad night elf, who will do anything to get her job done.

But on the other side (and this is why I always liked her), she has this iron will. And no one can really control her. Make her do things. She was always strong willed, which kind of fitted in Night Elven nature, at least in TFT. Her being on killing spree and getting away with it. Forcing a hand of fate upon elven society in solo mode was badass.
Wonder if she succeded in her plans if night elves would be still in Alliance or Teldrassil still stood unburned.
I hope after Illidan gone forever, "imprisoned" for eternity, she will move on and do something meaningful for her people.

[Wondercrab]

A lot of this, as unfortunate as it is, is a result of trying to tell a story in a module MMORPG format - it's difficult to have dynamic narrative such as what you're looking for when your story is constrained into a stagged If/Then/Else construction of triggers and outcomes. Much of those types of interactions become fodder for short stories or novels where there's narrative freedoms to do the kinds of things you've outlined. They made a number of leaps and bounds in that department with Legion and even with WoD (in terms of tying the story to the game), but they're not really at the point of being able to paint a living, breathing world with in-game elements just yet. For the example of Turalyon mistrusting Illidan how do you represent that in-game? An occasional angry emote toward Illidan? A sidebar-like tableau where he grouses at Illidan about killing Xe'ra? For something like that you'd want something juicy, as you said, but there's not a hook on which to place it. Perhaps it will come up again in "Before the Storm."

I think there's plenty of room to fit stuff like this into the MMORPG format, despite the constraints. It's tough to have a big dramatic cutscene at the end of every quest chain, but there are smaller (or alternative) ways of presenting this stuff. For example, some of the Argus world quests could've involved Turalyon having you clean up the mess made by Illidan's Demon Hunters after a reckless attack. Then his talking head could've conveyed some emotion and conflict in the voice snippet rather than just giving more dry orders. Or how about if they'd rewritten that quest where you fly one of the lightforged warframes into Antorus? Perhaps Illidan's talking head pops up and says something like "Turalyon refuses to risk his precious warframes by bringing the fight to the enemy. Take one, and destroy those Legion ships before they wipe out his encampment for good!" Then they could add in a little text line where one of the Draenei goes "Hey, what are you doing-?!" when you hop into the warframe, and the quest gets painted in an entirely different context.

Those are just random examples, but there's so much writing room in WoW to make use of the generic filler to convey character information instead of just raw exposition.

In Antorus they could've set up the NPCs and dialogue differently so that Illidan and Turalyon are both leading separate assaults with conflicting priorities. They've done this in the past with things like the gunship battle segment in Icecrown or the assault on the gates at the siege of Orgrimmar. Pandaria has quite a lot of that stuff, thinking back on it. Jaina and Lor'themar have some fun exchanges throughout the latter part of the expansion, and Garrosh is there escalating his villainy both directly and indirectly up until the climax. Siege of Orgrimmar has a ton of character moments in general, including boss fights like Nazgrim and the Klaxxi that make you feel things beyond just "I should kill this bad guy".

It's not that Blizzard can't do fun things with their characters, I think it's just that they often get stuck into the mindset of "these are our heroes in this conflict, therefore they must fit this archetype and go through these motions". Unfortunately that usually involves them giving generic quests to fight the bad guys, dropping expository dialogue in instances, and saying lofty heroic things during fights.

[Alidfe]

Excepting when Turalyon was fully prepared to kill Illidan for his part in destroying Xe'ra.

For like five seconds before giving up.

And no one else in the room even seemed bothered by it. Velen, despite dedicating basically his entire life to the Naaru's cause, only seems mildly annoyed in the aftermath. The same kind of reaction you might give if you spilled a glass of water or something.

It was a really bizarre scene.

[MechaCThun]

Maiev-- definitely. They completely scrapped the idea of her delving into similar madness as Illidan, and toyed with the notion of her being under some malevolent influence to retcon her actions in the "Wolfheart" novel. That may have been a silly route to go, and maybe they were right for scrapping it, but as there was nothing really else to go with... well,

Illidan-- for me, debatable. I like the direction they took his re-development in Legion (with the "Illidan" novel as well) was good but how the executed his final arc was a bit... underwhelming. I honestly do not feel as if he is the true sacrificial savior as he was put over to be. Perhaps I am not as young as I once was; being able to be more easily immersed by the story.

[cparle87]

I would argue that Illidan's story changed pretty radically with his reintroduction - from pure anti-hero to something closer to an outright hero, while still keeping a few anti-hero characteristics in his portrayal. Maiev has been pretty static since WC3: TFT, she took a tumble in "Stormrage" but her current portrayal is much like her previous one, with perhaps just a touch of her edge abraded by serial humiliations and setbacks.

Did we ever find out what happened to Maiev in Stormrage? It looks like she's gone batshit insane killing highborne and all, then in Legion we run into Jarod who's all like "I should've known something was wrong with her and fixed it." Did we ever find out what that was?

[Maljinwo]

Unless Maiev goes back to try to kill Malfurion and Tyrande, I won't care about her. It would've been interesting to have something shake up the Night elven leadership.

Illidan was his own man, looking for power. Even after reading his book I think it's simply stupid how hard they pushed the "he was fighting for all of us in secret"

[KainneAbsolute]

With the book and Legion, I think Illidan evolved. He accepted himself, his life. For once he didnt go for power for the sake of getting more power. But at the end I wish they told us MORE of why he stayed.

For Maiev: she also needed a change. I know many people will hate me and i understand the arguments, but I really wished a Maiev x Illidan. She is obsessed with Illidan! She had he potential to turn into craz. There Illidan will say: "hey, stop I know that path, dont take it"

AT LEAST, I think she had to stay with Illidan. The hunter is nothing without the hunt.

-----------------------------
Their story lacked a BABY!!! haha

[AwkwardSquirtle]

In Antorus they could've set up the NPCs and dialogue differently so that Illidan and Turalyon are both leading separate assaults with conflicting priorities. They've done this in the past with things like the gunship battle segment in Icecrown or the assault on the gates at the siege of Orgrimmar. Pandaria has quite a lot of that stuff, thinking back on it. Jaina and Lor'themar have some fun exchanges throughout the latter part of the expansion, and Garrosh is there escalating his villainy both directly and indirectly up until the climax. Siege of Orgrimmar has a ton of character moments in general, including boss fights like Nazgrim and the Klaxxi that make you feel things beyond just "I should kill this bad guy".

This would have been great. Would have worked well with the amount of teleporting that we already do. The Kin'Garoth wing could have been Illidan, while Turalyon led the frontal assault, with everyone meeting at the Throne at the same time.

[Aucald]

Did we ever find out what happened to Maiev in Stormrage? It looks like she's gone batshit insane killing highborne and all, then in Legion we run into Jarod who's all like "I should've known something was wrong with her and fixed it." Did we ever find out what that was?

The working theory (based on Maiev's words as well as Jarod's) is that the combination of her torture at the hands of Illidan in Shadowmoon Valley, her recognition of the hollowness of her life following Illidan's apparent death, and the changing society of the modern Kaldorei basically knocked Maiev for a loop. She was suffering from a kind of PTSD-based psychosis that unhinged her, and on her defeat in "Wolfheart" by Jarod she basically took off for parts unknown (revealed later to be the Vault of the Wardens in the Broken Isles). Fast-forward to Legion and she witnesses Gul'dan's capture of Illidan's body alongside a corrupted Cordana Felsong and commits herself to tracking them down, which leads to her imprisonment and further torture in Black Rook Hold. She seems to have regained her sanity (such as it ever was) and is no longer maniacally seeking to control Kaldorei society - multiple defeats have humbled her in that regard, at least.

[cparle87]

The working theory (based on Maiev's words as well as Jarod's) is that the combination of her torture at the hands of Illidan in Shadowmoon Valley, her recognition of the hollowness of her life following Illidan's apparent death, and the changing society of the modern Kaldorei basically knocked Maiev for a loop. She was suffering from a kind of PTSD-based psychosis that unhinged her, and on her defeat in "Wolfheart" by Jarod she basically took off for parts unknown (revealed later to be the Vault of the Wardens in the Broken Isles). Fast-forward to Legion and she witnesses Gul'dan's capture of Illidan's body alongside a corrupted Cordana Felsong and commits herself to tracking them down, which leads to her imprisonment and further torture in Black Rook Hold. She seems to have regained her sanity (such as it ever was) and is no longer maniacally seeking to control Kaldorei society - multiple defeats have humbled her in that regard, at least.

So there were two factions of Wardens? Cause I know she was training more of them in Darnassus while she was moonlighting as a serial killer and they all surrended to Malfurion when Maiev's madness was exposed. And then there was a separate group, maybe the class already fully trained, guarding the Vault?

Yeah, I think that last part is the most important. She doesn't feel she has the right to control others anymore. I think her control freak tendencies got exacerbated with the whole 'jailer' thing.

[Aucald]

So there were two factions of Wardens? Cause I know she was training more of them in Darnassus while she was moonlighting as a serial killer and they all surrended to Malfurion when Maiev's madness was exposed. And then there was a separate group, maybe the class already fully trained, guarding the Vault?

Yeah, I think that last part is the most important. She doesn't feel she has the right to control others anymore. I think her control freak tendencies got exacerbated with the whole 'jailer' thing.

Apparently so. According to the quests in BRH the Vault of the Wardens was about a hundred strong, all Wardens, who kept vigil over the imprisoned demons, extraplanar beings, and various Demon Hunters imprisoned there. Maiev's Warden trainees in Darnassus were a different order altogether, mostly like-minded souls she culled from the disaffected among the Night Elves and trained to hunt the Highborne who has recently rejoined Kaldorei society. At some point between "Wolfheart" and Legion the two groups have reconnected - Sira Moonwarden, interim leader of the Wardens during Maiev's imprisonment in BRH, is one of the Wardens trained by Maiev at Darnassus (who surrendered to Malfurion when Maiev was exposed). Jarod Shadowsong seems to have worked to redeem these Wardens at some point, as well, as they seem to hold him in equally high regard.

[cparle87]

Apparently so. According to the quests in BRH the Vault of the Wardens was about a hundred strong, all Wardens, who kept vigil over the imprisoned demons, extraplanar beings, and various Demon Hunters imprisoned there. Maiev's Warden trainees in Darnassus were a different order altogether, mostly like-minded souls she culled from the disaffected among the Night Elves and trained to hunt the Highborne who has recently rejoined Kaldorei society. At some point between "Wolfheart" and Legion the two groups have reconnected - Sira Moonwarden, interim leader of the Wardens during Maiev's imprisonment in BRH, is one of the Wardens trained by Maiev at Darnassus (who surrendered to Malfurion when Maiev was exposed). Jarod Shadowsong seems to have worked to redeem these Wardens at some point, as well, as they seem to hold him in equally high regard.

Ah, cool, very cool. I always like it when they acknowledge the progression of events and factions. Like the blood knights having the blood golems they claimed in ToT in Talador.