Campaigners call for boiling alive of crabs and lobsters to be banned

[Dispraise]

Sentience has nothing to do with a creatures ability to feel pain.

The capacity for subjective experience is literally the definition of sentience.

[Deleted]

Have you ever tried to stab a shrimp or crab in the brain? I'm willing to bet you're going to cause more pain than flash boiling them.

Have you? Stabbing the brain is what most professional chefs are trained to do and it's proved that stabbing results in instantaneous death whereas boiling can take minutes

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how are you going to police it? station a cop in every kitchen?

Deja Vu

The same as any other food regulation

[Izalla]

Majority of people do not hunt/catch lobsters. Lobsters here are bred on farms, and those who catch them are commercial fisherman. Here, the lobsters are frozen first, before being thrown into the pot. I guess we're more ahead in the times than some random slackjawed yokels who can't think of anything except their paypackets.

And lobsters here are caught by regular people with licenses who then choose what to do with their catches. Good luck stopping the public from having access to live lobsters when it's "the public" who catches them.

Not even gonna touch your constant need to assert how morally superior you are over people who don't have much concern for large insects with brains as complex as the small insects that no one cares about.

[Carnedge]

Have you? Stabbing the brain is what most professional chefs are trained to do and it's proved that stabbing results in instantaneous death whereas boiling can take minutes

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Deja Vu

The same as any other food regulation

Chefs are not trained to stab crabs in the brain. They have this thing called an exo skeleton, and a very dense one at that.

If anything drilling into the brain would be easier/faster. But again.... boil me alive over that shit any day of the week.

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The capacity for subjective experience is literally the definition of sentience.

So you're saying they feel pain but don't "experience" it. Okay...

[Fargus]

Are you buying your meat from a farm? Because most people don't, they buy it from a grocery store, which means is was packaged by an industrial supplier, which will never be cruelty free because of the volume and speed required to meet the demand.

From a local farm.

I don't know where this "3rd world" argument started, but, I never made it. Slaughterhouses routinely kill animals inhumanely, simply because the process is not 100% effective at preventing mishandling (nor can it ever be) and some slaughterhouses that operate under strict religious principles kill animals inhumanely because that is what the religious practice requires.

No process of killing animals is ever 100% effective all the time, even if you're a well-trained vet that euthanises animals with a cocktail of drugs. What's your point? We should not bother to make our best effort to treat animals in such conditions more humanely?

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And lobsters here are caught by regular people with licenses who then choose what to do with their catches. Good luck stopping the public from having access to live lobsters when it's "the public" who catches them.

Not even gonna touch your constant need to assert how morally superior you are over people who don't have much concern for large insects with brains as complex as the small insects that no one cares about.

Point of the matter is, the overwhelming majority of people who wish to eat lobster will get one that has been frozen. It's not hard to be morally superior to people who boil live animals. Why should I treat them any differently to people in China who boil dogs alive? Because you don't fully understand how a lobster's nervous system works, and how they react to stimuli? Because you hand-wave the issue away because it's inconvenient for you? Thing is, unlike people like you, I give them the benefit of the doubt based on the information at hand. That and I have principles - I don't fucking boil animals alive because it causes unnecessary pain. It doesn't matter if it's a lobster, a dog, etc.

Studies have been linked earlier in this thread that indicate otherwise. Either you can read them and educate yourself, or you can remain an ignorant slack-jawed yokel.

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Chefs are not trained to stab crabs in the brain. They have this thing called an exo skeleton, and a very dense one at that.

If anything drilling into the brain would be easier/faster. But again.... boil me alive over that shit any day of the week.

Might want to check out Gordon Ramsay's video on preparing lobster to see how a trained chef actually dispatches a lobster.

[Dispraise]

So you're saying they feel pain but don't "experience" it. Okay...

Tell me, do you think plants are sentient?

[Fargus]

how are you going to police it? station a cop in every kitchen?

How do you police most animal cruelty laws?

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If you're going to be declaring shrimp sentient, and legislating based on that claim, then I'm going to need to see some actual evidence to back it up.

And not just of a pain response. The capacity to experience that stimulus subjectively.

Who's declaring shrimp sentient?

A lot of animals aren't, yet animal cruelty laws still apply to them (as their ability to feel pain).

[Kerplank]

I have always wondered why it’s ok to boil lobsters alive when you would go to prison for 10 years if you did the same to a dog. People say lobsters can’t feel pain but I’m skeptical as to how scientific that is

I will link my previous post here for further clarification on this issue. I suggest the "lobsters aren't complex enough to feel pain" camp read it, instead of posting blindly on a subject they have little to no knowledge of. It is most certainly a vigorously debated topic in the scientific community.

[Dispraise]

Who's declaring shrimp sentient?

The letter continues that decapods are "sentient"

I can't post just that quote, so imagine I said something incredibly snide here.

[Kerplank]

Not even gonna touch your constant need to assert how morally superior you are over people who don't have much concern for large insects with brains as complex as the small insects that no one cares about.

Not as simple as that. Then again, I doubt you've gone beyond high school level in arthropodology so I can't blame you.

"No one cares" is not an argument, definitely not a moral or scientific one at any rate.

[Fargus]

I can't post just that quote, so imagine I said something incredibly snide here.

I'm pretty sure the Swiss government is not creating legislature on the basis of a few minor celebrities who aren't experts in the area.

[Izalla]

Point of the matter is, the overwhelming majority of people who wish to eat lobster will get one that has been frozen. It's not hard to be morally superior to people who boil live animals. Why should I treat them any differently to people in China who boil dogs alive? Because you don't fully understand how a lobster's nervous system works, and how they react to stimuli? Because you hand-wave the issue away because it's inconvenient for you? Thing is, unlike people like you, I give them the benefit of the doubt based on the information at hand. That and I have principles - I don't fucking boil animals alive because it causes unnecessary pain. It doesn't matter if it's a lobster, a dog, etc.

Studies have been linked earlier in this thread that indicate otherwise. Either you can read them and educate yourself, or you can remain an ignorant slack-jawed yokel.

There's also research concluding the likely opposite, since this is something that there is no consensus on. But by all means continue comparing dogs to lobsters and calling everyone who falls on the side of the other research "ignorant slack-jawed yokels". You know that a lobster's "brain" isn't located in its head right? It's all down the body? Splitting the lobster in half to make sure the entire string of ganglia is affected is what is considered the only humane way in some places, yet you're in support of just stabbing it in the head. How inhumane of you.

I'm done with this thread now, but by all means continue to reply and insult me

[Dispraise]

I'm pretty sure the Swiss government is not creating legislature on the basis of a few minor celebrities who aren't experts in the area.

If you're going to be declaring shrimp sentient, and legislating based on that claim

Are we done now?

[Izalla]

Not as simple as that. Then again, I doubt you've gone beyond high school level in arthropodology so I can't blame you.

"No one cares" is not an argument, definitely not a moral or scientific one at any rate.

I wasn't making a moral argument, I was pointing out the hypocrisy that no one cares what is done to smaller insects that we hate.

[Fargus]

There's also research concluding the opposite, since this is something that there is no consensus on. But by all means continue comparing dogs to lobsters and calling everyone who falls on the side of the other research "ignorant slack-jawed yokels". You know that a lobster's "brain" isn't located in its head right? It's all down the body? Splitting the lobster in half to make sure the entire string of ganglia is affected is what is considered the only humane way in some places, yet you're in support of just stabbing it in the head. How inhumane of you.

I'm done with this thread now, but by all means continue to reply and insult me

Link them then. Preferably from a non-biased source that is not owned by the lobster/seafood industry in places such as Maine (and not something from decades ago).

I will compare them because it is my belief based on the information at hand, that lobsters do indeed process pain. Whether they're acutely aware of this in some deep-seated level or not is irrelevant. They don't need the intellect of a dog to feel pain. Looking at the studies linked by Kerplank gives second thoughts to this "no-pain" rationale. As for how the nervous system of a lobster works, I'll leave that up to the researching scientists who have (recent) papers in this field to determine that.

Just remember, it was only a few hundreds years ago when many people thought even dogs didn't feel pain because of the exact same assumptions (nervous system not advanced enough). How can you say, with any confidence, what nervous system is too "inferior" to feel pain, when we don't even have a full grasp of how our own brain works, much less other animals?

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Are we done now?

Your post was effectively worthless then, considering the topic revolves around the Swiss government's decision, and not of what C-grade celebs have to say.

[Kerplank]

I wasn't making a moral argument, I was pointing out the hypocrisy that no one cares what is done to smaller insects that we hate.

That in itself can be constructed as a moral argument though. "What about the spider you squish". Well, it's a bit of a red herring there. Mostly because there are countless examples of insects and other "creepy crawlies" requiring extermination for valid reasons. The topic is about how we treat food animals. A lobster isn't really a direct threat to you, and there's no reason to boil one alive.

[Carnedge]

Tell me, do you think plants are sentient?

This is about Crabs and other giant bugs. Not plants, which have no nervous system.

And since you want to play the "prove they are sentient" game, prove they aren't.

[Tinykong]

From a local farm.

You are in the vast minority in the US, and I'd even be willing to guess that small farms are more likely to cause harm because they lack the sophisticated equipment to cause unconsciousness through electrocution.

No process of killing animals is ever 100% effective all the time, even if you're a well-trained vet that euthanises animals with a cocktail of drugs. What's your point? We should not bother to make our best effort to treat animals in such conditions more humanely?

My point is that we're already doing as much as possible to minimize suffering, it's unrealistic to expect any further reductions, except when it comes to shutting down illegal operations, which I would guess is rare.

If 100% is your goal (which it seems to be, for some people) you're a hypocrite if you don't kill, or witness the killing of, every animal you eat.

[Dispraise]

Your post was effectively worthless then

Fucking lol. I had to quote you both the OP and the post you responded to because you couldn't be assed to actually read either of them on your own. Now you're going to call other people's posts worthless?

Good joke.

This is about Crabs and other giant bugs. Not plants, which have no nervous system.

What's that you say? Plants are non-sentient because they lack the capacity for subjective experience?

And since you want to play the "prove they are sentient" game, prove they aren't.

Not how it fucking works, buddy. The onus is on the one making the claim. If you claim they are sentient, you supply evidence.

[Deleted]

Chefs are not trained to stab crabs in the brain. They have this thing called an exo skeleton, and a very dense one at that.

If anything drilling into the brain would be easier/faster. But again.... boil me alive over that shit any day of the week.

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So you're saying they feel pain but don't "experience" it. Okay...

So you don't know ok

Yes chefs are trained like that

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I wasn't making a moral argument, I was pointing out the hypocrisy that no one cares what is done to smaller insects that we hate.

Speak for yourself