Sylvanas on the Buring of Teldrassil and Saurfang's Honor

[Ash123]

Personally I like these new texts very much. I am never a fan of the concept "honor" prevailing in fantasy world, and it is very nice to see something from Sylvanas that is fundamentally different than shouting honor at every opportunity.

Sylvanas basically wants a "war that ends all war", which, unfortunately, never works in history. Still, I appreciate her for thinking in that direction.

"Time is sensitive here, but I respect that you seek to know more.
<Sylvanas points to Silithus on the map>.
No matter what I do, THIS will change the balance of power.
And azerite sightings are coming in from across the world, $n. We still do not know its full potential, we only know that it will create a new generation of warfare.
What will war look like in twenty years? In a hundred?"

"The Horde's children, and their children's children, will curse our memories as they burn.
If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We have both seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.
The Horde and the Alliance have been at a stalemate. Both of our armies have been exhausted against the Legion.
But therein, I see an opportunity."

"We take this azerite and use it to conquer Kalimdor.
We build the greatest empire ever known; one that is untouchable against the Alliance.
With the seas parting our lands, rather than mere borders, we can live and prosper without conflict.
That is how you ensure the survival of the Horde for the next hundred years, $n."

Honor means nothing to a corpse, Saurfang. You have the luxury of underestimating death, but it is something with which I am intimately familiar.
Maybe you don't care if your people die so long as it is honorable, but to me, this Horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us.
So die your warrior's death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son.


Is the Undercity evacuated?
EVERYBODY, MOBILIZE! CUT THEM OFF WITH THE RESERVES! DO NOT LET THEM PASS! Saurfang, where the hell did you go?

[ello]

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I think Sylvanas' view is flawed, but she does have a point. Honor isn't everything. Nazgrim had honor and look what happened. Dranosh had honor too, he honorably charged into the lich king with nothing but good intentions in his heart and a battlecry on his lips. In the words of Taran Zhu, where is he now?

I think her "intimately familiar" line is quite poignant. Sylvanas is pretty much the definition of a shattered idealist. Sylvanas too once died for an honorable cause. She fought until the bitter end for that "clean death" and what did it get her? Instead of her ideals being rewarded they were cruelly punished, she was raised, forced to watch 90% of her race fall and her homeland burn, so it makes sense that she doesn't value things like honor or valor. This line is certainly in-character and consistent with her story. And I can agree with the message in theory. What good is an honorable tale if you aren't around to tell it?

On the other hand, if you are willing to trade it all for victory, what does victory even mean? If you're willing to sacrifice everything to protect something is that "thing" really worth protecting? It's easy to argue that idealism should be abandoned in the wake of hardship but that is a slippery slope. Arthas probably did what he though was necessary, willingly abandoning things like honor for the sake of protecting his people, and we all know how that turned out.

If you have a choice between letting your loved ones die but protecting your honor versus saving your people but losing any semblance of moral coherence, what's the right choice?

[Trassk]

Honor is one of the orcs best virtues, but it can be twisted. Garrosh held honor for just himself and his kind but not for anyone else.

Saurfang also doesn't fear death because he's actually a noble character who's put aside bias against his enemies to work to something better. Sylvanas has a flawed view of death because she's already damned and seen what that means for a damned soul, something only effecting undead. So whatever she's touting to Saurfang doesn't effect him.

She also, unlike him, fears death now, she fears returning to that void, and would kill anyone to avoid returning to it. This is why she rally's the horde, not for its survival, but to surround herself with pawns to avoid being killed and going to that dark place again.

[Syegfryed]

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I think Sylvanas' view is flawed, but she does have a point. Honor isn't everything. Nazgrim had honor and look what happened. Dranosh had honor too, he honorably charged into the lich king with nothing but good intentions in his heart and a battlecry on his lips. In the words of Taran Zhu, where is he now?

But he know that honor is not Everything, he go trough all of those scenarios with Garrosh, dranosh and nazgrin, but he know is important and the prime beliefe of the horde, He is not a fool, senile or Suicidal, nothing of this make too much sense, we rly need to wait about more info and the context

Helll sylvanas mock him even about his son, why things come his far? what the reason? he would cleave her in that moment, again, odd

If you have a choice between letting your loved ones die but protecting your honor versus saving your people but losing any semblance of moral coherence, what's the right choice?

i still think this is too extreme to use this in a context we don't even know all yet, if is about conquering TElldrasil to not fear borders, this comparison don't match

[Trassk]

If you have a choice between letting your loved ones die but protecting your honor versus saving your people but losing any semblance of moral coherence, what's the right choice?

Like say, the writers know sylvanas has a crooked view on life and death, since she is undead and has nothing to look forward to. Given also that she knows what undeath means and does to someone's chance of having a peaceful afterlife, she willingly strips that away from people for her own survival. She'd sooner damn others then face that dark end herself.

[Deleted]

Hadn't realized it from earlier posts / news on BfA.

But do I understand it correctly Sylvannus wants to conquer Kalimdor for the Horde while abandoning the Eastern Kingdoms and leave that to the Alliance?

It probably would be a way to solve the conflict:
Kalimdor for the Horde
Eastern Kingdoms for the Alliance
Pandara for Neutrals
Northrend a nobody land

[LoLcano]

So die your warrior's death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son.

Sylvanas is trying so hard to become a loot pinata in future , Talking like that to one of the most iconic character of Horde.

[Deleted]

Like say, the writers know sylvanas has a crooked view on life and death, since she is undead and has nothing to look forward to. Given also that she knows what undeath means and does to someone's chance of having a peaceful afterlife, she willingly strips that away from people for her own survival. She'd sooner damn others then face that dark end herself.

She doesn't know that undeath means no peaceful afterlife. Neither do we for that matter. We just got her perspective from dying and we don't know if the same happens to the forsaken or if it is any different from others their deaths. Many forsaken that have been risen would have seen what the afterlife is like and choose to stay undead for a reason. It's not hard to assume the afterlife is fucked up no matter what.

[Syegfryed]

Hadn't realized it from earlier posts / news on BfA.

But do I understand it correctly Sylvannus wants to conquer Kalimdor for the Horde while abandoning the Eastern Kingdoms and leave that to the Alliance?

It probably would be a way to solve the conflict:
Kalimdor for the Horde
Eastern Kingdoms for the Alliance
Pandara for Neutrals
Northrend a nobody land

and how the elves would react about giving up their ancient homes and lives? like, no one would want revenge? no attacks from sea? air? this no border thing make no sense, the only difference is the border is big and hard to supervise and defend, the only truly way to end the war is annihilate/extinct the other faction completely

They are just bringing up the very reason people crucified Garrosh before, he want dominate kalindor too, and everyone was against him

i am also tending to believe in the @Trassk comment, she is so afraid of death she will try to secure an "entire continent" alone and away from the alliance

[Trassk]

She doesn't know that undeath means no peaceful afterlife. Neither do we for that matter. We just got her perspective from dying and we don't know if the same happens to the forsaken or if it is any different from others their deaths. Many forsaken that have been risen would have seen what the afterlife is like and choose to stay undead for a reason. It's not hard to assume the afterlife is fucked up no matter what.

Actually she knows what she experienced, it's been mentioned in one of the books or short stories at what she experienced in death, so we know some version of hell to Warcraft exists. We also know souls can be brought to whatever warcraft's version of heaven is, hinted at with quests like bridenbraids in icecrown.

[Zuben]

I'm more inclined to side with Sylvanas here. Honor is a guideline to work with other people and form bonds of good will, but there are times when it's nothing but a hindrance. A pragmatic leader can tell when it's useful and indulge in it accordingly. Saurfang has had a good head on his shoulders, but these recent datamines, combined with how in Legion's warrior quest he went with the playercharacter to fight in Broken Shore just to die honorably, suggest he's become obsessed with honorable end. Suppose it's par for the course for an orc warrior as old as he, but it compromises his capability as a leader. Sylvanas is having none of it.

The bit about reanimating him or saying hi to his son was crude enough to suggest Sylvanas was really on edge with Saurfang at the moment. Combine with the quotes wondering where he was during battle for Lordaeron AND that Saurfang won't join the rescue team in Stormwind-scenario, I get the picture he's drifting away from Horde, at least the current Sylvanas-led one. I don't think he'd join the Alliance or sit things out completely, but things seem dire for him. It remains to be seen how he develops in BfA, but honestly? I'm worried about him.

And for Sylvanas too for that matter. If she's sincere about protecting the Horde and not only herself, then I consider it a noble goal with flawed execution. Were dividing Azeroth between Horde and Alliance like she says as easy as flipping a switch, then she'd have a case, but the journey to get there is incredibly arduous, and there is no guarantee the factions would be content with the end result. Especially when you remember it requires nations to lose their homeland and with blood. Alteraci, Gilneans, Arathor, Stormwindys, what's left of Lordaerians, forest trolls etc. no one has ever been content with being bereft of their homeland if it wasn't destroyed (like in the case of orcs and goblins). Well, maybe the Quel'dorei when they left Kalimdor, but certainly not when they were exiled by the fresh Sin'dorei regime. In fact, even after all the shit the Alliance has pulled on the blood elves, I think they'd join it to keep their lands, if the endgame is to have Horde and Alliance isolated from each other anyway.

We're still missing context, a clear timeline between events and details here and there, so I'm eagerly awaiting for more. Faction conflict, as impossible as it is as the main story of an expansion, has always been my primary interest in Warcraft. BfA is looking to be a smorgasbord of delicious lore for me.

[Syegfryed]

Saurfang has had a good head on his shoulders, but these recent datamines, combined with how in Legion's warrior quest he went with the playercharacter to fight in Broken Shore just to die honorably, suggest he's become obsessed with honorable end. Suppose it's par for the course for an orc warrior as old as he, but it compromises his capability as a leader. Sylvanas is having none of it.

He didn't go to broken hore with the Warrior character to die and find a honorable death, he precisely said to you he is not stupid and is not seeking death, he just want to kill demons until he feels satisfied

[Biotec]

Hadn't realized it from earlier posts / news on BfA.

But do I understand it correctly Sylvannus wants to conquer Kalimdor for the Horde while abandoning the Eastern Kingdoms and leave that to the Alliance?

It probably would be a way to solve the conflict:
Kalimdor for the Horde
Eastern Kingdoms for the Alliance
Pandara for Neutrals
Northrend a nobody land

The problem with her logic there is that means the Blood Elves would have to abandon Silvermoon and the Sunwell, while the Night Elves would have to abandon Hyjal and their sacred forests. It seems like she really didn't confer with Lorthemar about this plan because there's a small line in there that makes it seem like he's incredibly untrusting of her after the failed battle of Lordaeron.

[Deleted]

For once, I agree with Sylvanas. She has a twisted view of "Live today to fight tomorrow", but it's still better than suicidal honor.

Look where Nazgrim's honor drove him into. Saurfang is one of the most veteran soldiers of the Horde and saw countless examples of how honor can be a trick to something worse.

Honestly? Blizzard is purposely doing this to redefine the Horde. Right now, there is a clash of ideologies happening between the Orcish honor that was one of the pillar that created the Horde and the survival instincts of many races that joined the Horde.

[Zuben]

He didn't go to broken hore with the Warrior character to die and find a honorable death, he precisely said to you he is not stupid and is not seeking death, he just want to kill demons until he feels satisfied

Huh, you're right. Doesn't negate my larger point, but I stand corrected on that part.

[Trassk]

For once, I agree with Sylvanas. She has a twisted view of "Live today to fight tomorrow", but it's still better than suicidal honor.

Look where Nazgrim's honor drove him into. Saurfang is one of the most veteran soldiers of the Horde and saw countless examples of how honor can be a trick to something worse.

I'll not deny that, honor is just a belief, like any religion would believe in something.

What matters is the person themselves in how they interpret it. Someone like Garrosh takes the concept of honor and makes it only about honoring himself and his own kind, none for any other race. Honor killings in the middle east based on a screwed up mentality of 'honor our family or die' is equally as bad, but that is because of many other mitigating circumstances.

But honor from people who are actually noble and decent make it into something good. Tirion believed in honor and justice, and it lead him to do things like free eitrigg from capture, to bring the argent crusade into force and stand against the lich king. and honoring your family isn't a bad thing is their people worth honoring, or honoring heroes memory.

Saurfangs belief in honor comes down to his own personal beliefs of not being a coward, even in the face of death. It has its flaws, but his flaws are better then following someone whos using fake honor to draw people in around her just to protect her from death, they can all get f**ked so long as she's safe.

both Sylvanas and Saurfang do what they do on a personal level, Saurfangs is on a level of protecting those he cares about, including the horde, where as sylvanas only does it for her own survival. she's even sacrifice her own forsaken for her own sake.

[Deleted]

Funny how Hordeplayers went from: Lok Thar Ogar and proudly holding up their moral sense of honor, to:
Screw honor, screw Saurfang, let Sylvanas use him as an undead boot cleaning slave for gods sake, who is he anyway?

Speaks a lot about the playerbase the horde is now composed of. 2 addons before Saurfang was your true and only hero.

[Skoll Shorties]

For the Horde still, but her words to Saurfang do irk me just a bit.

[Deleted]

both Sylvanas and Saurfang do what they do on a personal level, Saurfangs is on a level of protecting those he cares about, including the horde, where as sylvanas only does it for her own survival. she's even sacrifice her own forsaken for her own sake.

And that's how the Horde is currently divided. Too bad the Alliance doesn't have these type of internal definition struggles, everyone is ass-kissing Anduin, with Genn whispering into his ears... I would love some dwarven conflict for RP purposes.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny how Hordeplayers went from: Lok Thar Ogar and proudly holding up their moral sense of honor, to:
Screw honor, screw Saurfang, let Sylvanas use him as an undead boot cleaning slave for gods sake, who is he anyway?

Speaks a lot about the playerbase the horde is now composed of. 2 addons before Saurfang was your true and only hero.

Said no one in this thread. Your point is?

[Manabomb]

Ahhhh brown orcs for the Alliance is the most beautiful thing Blizzard could ever do. Honestly and truthfully the only thing keeping me from straight pre-ordering BfA right now is 100% confirmation rather than just extremely positive speculation.

We know they are coming, but the vagueness around specifying what faction they are around, Saurfangs change of heart... All of this points down that road. They could pull a fast one, but I am confident that this will be there path much like how Nightborne going Horde was their path.

Which i guess means the possibility of "evil" Kul'tiran humans joining the Horde? maybe? I don't know. All I know is right now, the idea of Saurfang defecting to the Alliance and bringing Brown Orcs in as an allied race has me excited beyond all fucking reason.