The Brexit aftermath thread

[Gibblewink]

Supposedly the Tories are rather fond of a book by Varoufakis outlining a strategy where you delay and derail all the bureaucrat-level negotiations based on rules and regulations, and then at the end force a political agreement that isn't bound by inconvenient preexisting treaties etc.

If true they might actually think they are really cunning and biding their time until there is almost no more sand in the hourglass. Then they can spring their cake-plan on an EU so desperate for some sort of deal that they get their way.

[Demolitia]

No not everybody, but the majority do - never forget 17.4 million wise people won the referendum. All we have left to do is win the no transition argument and we are over the line. It does seem inevitable though the the question the UK is increasingly asking is :-

Why bother with a transition/massive EU payment if there is nothing worth transitioning to?

Just a few days Eurochums, you and I will be able to celebrate just 1 year until Brexit means Brexit and Rule Britannia once again!

But you don't know that. I still have faith in humanity and think this was mostly a general discontent vote. Same with Trump. People were face with an extreme decision that looked like it would shake up things and took it. The issue is you don't really realise what the consequences are. And I know there is no convincing you at this point.
You talk about doing a massive payment. Let's take the net figure from the ONS (9.4 billion pounds?) vs your national budget for 2016 (772 billion pounds expenditure).
I don't think you truly comprehend all the things the EU does on behalf of the UK, and how much it would cost to do it yourself.

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Supposedly the Tories are rather fond of a book by Varoufakis outlining a strategy where you delay and derail all the bureaucrat-level negotiations based on rules and regulations, and then at the end force a political agreement that isn't bound by inconvenient preexisting treaties etc.

If true they might actually think they are really cunning and biding their time until there is almost no more sand in the hourglass. Then they can spring their cake-plan on an EU so desperate for some sort of deal that they get their way.

We all know how succesful Varoufakis was.
By October, november at the latest, there has to be an agreement by the council by extended majority. Then it goes to the EP where you need a simple majority. in the meantime the UK has to also approve the deal to have everything settled by march. If the for example the eastern european countries don't like the deal (no freedom of movement) they might have enough MEPs to block the deal. Odds are no extension will be given over the 2 years limit for article 50, in which case should the UK panic, they would have to try to find a way to withdraw their article 50 notification, which nobody really knows how to do, if it's possible at all.

[dribbles]

I'm just going to nitpick here for a sec, because I find it hilarious... originally, the phrase is "Rule, Britannia!" when Britannia actually ruled half of the planet. Your (accidental?) omission of the comma, however, is grammatically absolutely correct, as you will only rule Britannia, and fuck all else.

For some reason, I find that very funny. Especially since I doubt your big britannic ego intended that blunder. :P

Always willing to give you a lesson on grammar, but funny or not the mighty EU empire is the one with grand designs of global domination these days - we will just be happy, notice no comma, with rule Britannia. It has been over 40 years since EU enslaved Britain has had true self determination, more like over a century for you guys, chip on your shoulder about that still weighing you down much?

Perhaps you poor EU battery hens, never having had it, won't miss what true freedom feels like. Enjoy the views of emancipation from across the channel and weep whilst the EU machine helps itself to yet more money from your back pocket to cover the UK missing payments :P

I hear rumours of a nation wide cross EU income tax levy is coming? Or perhaps a seperate percentage sales tax just for Juncker? Oh dear.

I am wondering, if just for amusement really, how many days of the year do you work just to fund your beloved EU? Oh I don't have to ask it's handily all contained within here.

https://acton.org/publications/trans...om-day-2017-eu

What will that gap stretch to with enforced and increasing EU nation payments? I Feel sorry for you trapped within the EU really.

But you don't know that. I still have faith in humanity and think this was mostly a general discontent vote. Same with Trump. People were face with an extreme decision that looked like it would shake up things and took it. The issue is you don't really realise what the consequences are. And I know there is no convincing you at this point.
You talk about doing a massive payment. Let's take the net figure from the ONS (9.4 billion pounds?) vs your national budget for 2016 (772 billion pounds expenditure).
I don't think you truly comprehend all the things the EU does on behalf of the UK, and how much it would cost to do it yourself.

The EU does jack for the UK. You bring it up yet it is telling that you fail to even mention one thing it does for the UK? Go on name something the EU does. It does nothing except fleece too much money from UK, German, French, Dutch etc etc taxpayers. On Brexit EU taxpayers will pay more tax to keep the failing European experiment going, UK taxpayers less. Good times for some, tears for others.

[Slant]

Always willing to give you a lesson on grammar, but funny or not the mighty EU empire is the one with grand designs of global domination these days - we will just be happy, notice no comma, with rule Britannia. It has been over 40 years since EU enslaved Britain has had true self determination, more like over a century for you guys, chip on your shoulder about that still weighing you down much?

Perhaps you poor EU battery hens, never having had it, won't miss what true freedom feels like. Enjoy the views of emancipation from across the channel and weep whilst the EU machine helps itself to yet more money from your back pocket to cover the UK missing payments :P

I hear rumours of a nation wide cross EU income tax levy is coming? Or perhaps a seperate percentage sales tax just for Juncker? Oh dear.

I am wondering, if just for amusement really, how many days of the year do you work just to fund your beloved EU? Oh I don't have to ask it's handily all contained within here.

https://acton.org/publications/trans...om-day-2017-eu

What will that gap stretch to with enforced and increasing EU nation payments? I Feel sorry for you trapped within the EU really.

I'm really just quoting this so the madness is documented and you can't talk yourself out of the shithole you are digging for yourself. Really, I have nothing to comment except to sit here in silence and enjoy the fine quality trash talking you're doing. It's good work, I have to commend you on that. It's almost a piece of art. There is not a shitty propaganda piece you've missed. I think you've incorporated all lies and I think... I actually think you invented a few new ones on the way.

Say, do you actually giggle when you write shit like that? I'm genuinely interested.

[dribbles]

I'm really just quoting this so the madness is documented and you can't talk yourself out of the shithole you are digging for yourself. Really, I have nothing to comment except to sit here in silence and enjoy the fine quality trash talking you're doing. It's good work, I have to commend you on that. It's almost a piece of art. There is not a shitty propaganda piece you've missed. I think you've incorporated all lies and I think... I actually think you invented a few new ones on the way.

Say, do you actually giggle when you write shit like that? I'm genuinely interested.

It's hard not to snigger a bit really given what's gone before on this forum. I mean look at this from reuters yesterday ffs how can you not laugh?

London, Europe's only option banker, employs almost a million people in financial services yet Frankfurt and Paris are squabbling over pinching a few hundred bankers back home and proclaiming to be the victor in the EU Brexit spoils - a few hundred people lol

Frankfurt’s chief promoter, Hubertus Vaeth, had expected up to 6,000 new arrivals in Germany’s financial capital this year in the event of a hard Brexit. Vaeth recently said he has now pared back that assessment to less than 1,000.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1FZ234

Imagine you personally had one option for a bank account, you pissed them off and they said no more banking facilities for you as of right now. All cheque, overdraft,insurance and card facilities withdrawn with immediate effect. Laugh about that all you like but for most people that would equal bankruptcy and a financial catastrophe.

That is what the EU faces and the clock is ticking. Still laughing sunshine? A few hundred people are not going to save you....

[Slant]

That is what the EU faces and the clock is ticking. Still laughing sunshine? A few hundred people are not going to save you....

Actually, I did laugh about a British company today. Can't go into details, but suffice to say that we're not entering close business relations with British companies these days. :P

[Demolitia]

I hear rumours of a nation wide cross EU income tax levy is coming? Or perhaps a seperate percentage sales tax just for Juncker? Oh dear.

I am wondering, if just for amusement really, how many days of the year do you work just to fund your beloved EU? Oh I don't have to ask it's handily all contained within here.

The EU does jack for the UK. You bring it up yet it is telling that you fail to even mention one thing it does for the UK? Go on name something the EU does. It does nothing except fleece too much money from UK, German, French, Dutch etc etc taxpayers. On Brexit EU taxpayers will pay more tax to keep the failing European experiment going, UK taxpayers less. Good times for some, tears for others.

Your contribution is 9.4 billions. That's about 141 GBP per person (close to a monthly tube pass?) or 313 GBP per taxpayer. A year. That's a painful 26 GBP a month in average. We probably pay something similar and I'll gladly pay twice that to ease your pain and not hear you complain about it anymore.
That covers the ability to travel and work wherever I want with the same rights as everyone else, conveniently use the same currency almost everywhere. Have people take care of consumer protection, disease control, make police and judicial cooperation for cross-boarder crime as smooth as possible, data protection, market competition, supervise nuclear safety and transport, work on improving human rights, allow me to have bank accounts in several countries, use my mobile phone with few added extra fees when I travel and my Netflix account anywhere, and makes it possible for businesses in my country to trade freely within the EU.
Chances are we will be able to collect import duties on the stuff you're selling us. It might just make up for the loss.
If it comes to that we will share the "burden" between everybody else. 9.4 billions pounds, we are 451.8 million people. That would be what? 20 pounds a year each?
2-3 pounds a month if we only share it between taxpayers? Maybe 10 if only France and Germany absorb the cost.

edit: thanks for the acton link by the way. You never fail to unearth wonderful sources.

[dribbles]

Your contribution is 9.4 billions. That's about 141 GBP per person (close to a monthly tube pass?) or 313 GBP per taxpayer. A year. That's a painful 26 GBP a month in average. We probably pay something similar and I'll gladly pay twice that to ease your pain and not hear you complain about it anymore.
That covers the ability to travel and work wherever I want with the same rights as everyone else, conveniently use the same currency almost everywhere. Have people take care of consumer protection, disease control, make police and judicial cooperation for cross-boarder crime as smooth as possible, data protection, market competition, supervise nuclear safety and transport, work on improving human rights, allow me to have bank accounts in several countries, use my mobile phone with few added extra fees when I travel and my Netflix account anywhere, and makes it possible for businesses in my country to trade freely within the EU.
Chances are we will be able to collect import duties on the stuff you're selling us. It might just make up for the loss.
If it comes to that we will share the "burden" between everybody else. 9.4 billions pounds, we are 451.8 million people. That would be what? 20 pounds a year each?
2-3 pounds a month if we only share it between taxpayers? Maybe 10 if only France and Germany absorb the cost.

Contributions don't equal cost of membership, which some respected scholars say costs the UK 52bn a year or 1000 euro per person per annum, far more than that per taxpayer. A family of four equates to 4000 euro a year just to be in the EU club, a lot of money. Did I miss again where you mentioned what the EU did for us with that money?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...study-research

See when the tough questions are asked in a referendum :- What does the EU do for you with your money? When the answer always comes back as
diddly squat the result is inevitable.

[Slant]

See when the tough questions are asked in a referendum :- What does the EU do for you with your money? When the answer always comes back as
diddly squat the result is inevitable.

You see, diddly squat is just your uninformed assumption. That doesn't mean it's the reality. And this is why you fail. You keep assuming that the limited knowledge your uneducated mind possesses equals reality.

[Demolitia]

Contributions don't equal cost of membership, which some respected scholars say costs the UK 52bn a year or 1000 euro per person per annum, far more than that per taxpayer. A family of four equates to 4000 euro a year just to be in the EU club, a lot of money. Did I miss again where you mentioned what the EU did for us with that money?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...study-research

See when the tough questions are asked in a referendum :- What does the EU do for you with your money? When the answer always comes back as
diddly squat the result is inevitable.

Wait, what? Ok, your membership fee after rebate is 13 billions. That still doesn't add up to 1000 a year.
Or did you just make up a new concept, attached random figures to it and support them with yet another brilliant piece of journalism from the Express ad the opinion of an American pastor with a bachelor's degree in art's history? You have a funny definition of respected scholars.

You are free not to regard certain things as benefits. Many don't impact people directly, or don't apply to everyone. Fair enough.

[Floopa]

remoaners implying britain voted to leave the eu because of economic reasons.

wonder when they'll get it :/

[Kiri]

remoaners implying britain voted to leave the eu because of economic reasons.

wonder when they'll get it :/

What remoaners? Most of the people here are the 'get on with it' crowd, not remoaners.
Or is that just because in the eyes of the Brexiteers, everyone not celebrating about Brexist is a remoaner? Let's look at how Brexiteer media covers their own government....yep, checks out.

[Slant]

remoaners implying britain voted to leave the eu because of economic reasons.

wonder when they'll get it :/

Well, it's either xenophobia, economic reasons or because you simply got bored. Go on, tell me that fairy tale about sovereignity again, because you've been slammed on that bullshit so many times, one more time doesn't matter.

[Floopa]

Well, it's either xenophobia, economic reasons or because you simply got bored. Go on, tell me that fairy tale about sovereignity again, because you've been slammed on that bullshit so many times, one more time doesn't matter.

it's not xenophobic to want proper immigration controls lol. immigration is a net benefit to the UK, i accept that. it could be a bigger net benefit though, and people who come here should integrate with our values better. this applies to everyone btw.

i would say there was also a fear of an empowered europe if we voted to remain... if one of the main contributors to a union cannot leave then democracy is a complete farce and isn't actually being applied. we voted to leave, it's our democratic right to take that decision. having people scream "RACIST, BIGOT" because people value their right to vote, rights people fought and died for, is quite frankly disgusting.

[Tinch]

Well, it's either xenophobia, economic reasons or because you simply got bored. Go on, tell me that fairy tale about sovereignity again, because you've been slammed on that bullshit so many times, one more time doesn't matter.

It's not bullshit though is it. You can disagree about its level of importance all you like but its just a simple fact that to be a member of the EU you have to cede aspects of national sovereignty.

[Deleted]

Sure, they can pin it on the EU for all I care. It's just mindboggling how such an important decision was taking and executed so carelessly.

I will quote you a article from brexitcentral that is, revealing.
(For context, this is in regards to single market membership)

We need to be cool enough to support the Government and brave enough to call the bluff of Michel Barnier et al . We should instead offer the alternative freest possible mutual access. Such open trade – free of the political and legal baggage of the EU – would be beneficial for all the people of Europe, not just the British.

That is the central failing of many right-wingers (This pains me to say as a conservative) in general, and in particular of leavers - That 'Trade', 'Economical activity', 'Markets' exists naturally, and regulation is merely an impediment, This moron actually thinks that the EU is not the reason for open trade, but rather an unnecessary impediment, or that politics can be separated from the economy, well it's moronic.
And if you think that of course the benefits of the EU can be had outside of the EU, after all, it all exists naturally...
Maybe someone should try to remind them that prior to the single market (not the customs union, a very common failing) there were extensive border controls, the actual natural state for cross border trade.

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Watch all the Brexiters start crying when the Tories proceed to dismantle the NHS.

"But but, muh Farage promised us!"

Well they seem to be markedly quiet after being told that their vote (who largely was illiberal and nativist) Was actually liberal and global.
It's fun, the losers of globalization was hurt by the evil EU, so we who speak for them, are going to advocate more globalism.
Fun times - dolchstoßlegende next.

[Noradin]

It's not bullshit though is it. You can disagree about its level of importance all you like but its just a simple fact that to be a member of the EU you have to cede aspects of national sovereignty.

Ceding them would mean you don't get to take them back on your own say so.
The term you are looking for is "delegating".

[Deleted]

See when the tough questions are asked in a referendum :- What does the EU do for you with your money? When the answer always comes back as
diddly squat the result is inevitable.

Run a whole series of regulatory institutions that you know will have to run for yourself?
Like the VCA, whose regulatory approval won't be valid in the EU anymore, (something that anyone with legal experience knew years ago mind you) - That a year ago, your parliament said "We cannot imagine a situation in which the … approvals by the VCA are not recognised in other parts of the world" - Has just been by the EU in a notice to stakeholders, that indeed, those approvals will not be valid after leaving the EU.
Conceivably they will still be valid in burundi or wherever, so there is still that.

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Wait, what? Ok, your membership fee after rebate is 13 billions. That still doesn't add up to 1000 a year.
Or did you just make up a new concept, attached random figures to it and support them with yet another brilliant piece of journalism from the Express ad the opinion of an American pastor with a bachelor's degree in art's history? You have a funny definition of respected scholars.

You are free not to regard certain things as benefits. Many don't impact people directly, or don't apply to everyone. Fair enough.

That figure is (presumably) derived from observing all the cashflows to the EU, and then, in a fit of mercantilist paranoia, presume this to be a 'cost'.
Basically it's the answer to the question, what would the GDP be, if we didn't import anything (and this had no impact on the rest of the economy, because that's a reasonable assumption to base an argument on).

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remoaners implying britain voted to leave the eu because of economic reasons.

wonder when they'll get it :/

The two arguments that the UK people think are(were) the most important was, 350 million to the NHS (Definitively money) and 'taking back control' - Not about money.

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It's not bullshit though is it. You can disagree about its level of importance all you like but its just a simple fact that to be a member of the EU you have to cede aspects of national sovereignty.

But this is power the UK can't wield alone, it is not in practice strong enough to utilize this sovereignty -

[Dhrizzle]

it's not xenophobic to want proper immigration controls lol. immigration is a net benefit to the UK, i accept that. it could be a bigger net benefit though, and people who come here should integrate with our values better. this applies to everyone btw.

You realise that even after Brexit we'll still need immigration as it is a net benefit, but without easy access from the EU we're more likely to attract migrants from the Commonwealth rather than the EU. For someone who is totally-not-racist-or-xenophobic-but-concerned-about-people's-values-and-ability-to-integrate-with-British-society that would worsen the situation.

i would say there was also a fear of an empowered europe if we voted to remain... if one of the main contributors to a union cannot leave then democracy is a complete farce and isn't actually being applied. we voted to leave, it's our democratic right to take that decision. having people scream "RACIST, BIGOT" because people value their right to vote, rights people fought and died for, is quite frankly disgusting.

Let's ignore for a moment that our political system and even the way the referendum was managed has already made democracy in the UK a complete farce, what is really disgusting is your complete failure to admit that some people did vote for Brexit for racist and xenophobic reasons (not you of course, you're totally-not-racist-or-xenophobic-but-concerned-about-people's-values-and-ability-to-integrate-with-British-society.) Woefully uninformed reasons at that, people who not only followed the right-wing narrative that all Muslims are terrorists but also that the EU is somehow responsible for them coming to the UK.

And for all your claims that people didn't vote for economic reasons, the Leave campaign certainly spent a lot of time and lies convincing people that we'd still enjoy the economic benefits of EU membership not to mention the ridiculous 350m-a-week for the NHS lie.

[Floopa]

i voted to leave primarily as a protest vote against david cameron. i'm a socialist. also the referendum was about as democratic as it could possibly be. it was a referendum: in or out. it wasn't FPTP (admittedly shit) or anything like that. it asked us, stay in or leave the eu. 52% of people voted to leave, an overwhelming majority. this majority was further cemented in the 2017 GE when 85% of voters voted for parties supporting the referendum result.

that aside, my plan is to leave the UK for about 15-20 years and return after the looming economic troubles and societal problems are dealt with.