Republicans introduce immigration bill "Secure and Succeed Act"

[Delana]

But ultimately, America needs immigrants - and it needs them in droves.

Please explain how the modern (or future) automated, additive manufacturing based economy needs immigrants from the third world in droves. Is there some sort of labor shortage I'm unaware of?

[Dacien]

Are you in favor of taking measures to prevent childhood arrivals in the future? I agree it's an unfortunate circumstance, but 1.) it's going to continue happening and 2.) we do not have the means to keep all of Mexico's children, or the World's children, in the standard to which our poor are accustomed.

Of course, otherwise what's the point? We'll continue to have people breaking immigration laws, because they know their children will (rightly) be looked upon with sympathy.

Childhood arrival citizenship absolutely must be coupled with border security, and ideally a simplified immigration process.

[Elegiac]

Please explain how the modern (or future) automated, additive manufacturing based economy needs immigrants from the third world in droves. Is there some sort of labor shortage I'm unaware of?

The simple fact that market economies are built on consumers, not employment.

Please, stop relying on cable news for your economics education.

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Childhood arrival citizenship absolutely must be coupled with border security

Novel question; why.

The US has an open border to the north and had one to the south until the 80s.

[Delana]

Good thing that 'all' of Mexico's children aren't being brought here.

If we offered free American citizenship to any Mexican child and their families, how many do you think would remain in Mexico?

Ultimately America is a state built on adherence to an ideal. That worked really well when America was a wilderness. The only people that could have possibly wanted to come to America were people eager to participate in the American experiment. Now that America is the world hegemon, that's obviously not the case.

[Elegiac]

If we offered free American citizenship to any Mexican child and their families, how many do you think would remain in Mexico?

Let me know if anyone has actually supported such.

Ultimately America is a state built on adherence to an ideal. That worked really well when America was a wilderness. The only people that could have possibly wanted to come to America were people eager to participate in the American experiment. Now that America is the world hegemon, that's obviously not the case.

Speaking as a naturalized citizen; this is a crock of shit.

People come here because they want to seek a better life and pursue the American Dream (not me, obviously, but other people) - how on earth is that not 'wanting to participate in the American experiment'.

[Delana]

The simple fact that market economies are built on consumers, not employment.

Please, stop relying on cable news for your economics education.

So you're saying that the simple act of consuming something is an economic positive? Why don't we just light goods on fire then? I'm not sure who indoctrinated you, but economies are based on the exchange of goods. Sometimes those goods are abstract. Sometimes their physical. But something must be offered by both parties. What does a generic "consumer" with no skills, no property, etc. offer to the exchange?

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Let me know if anyone has actually supported such.



Speaking as a naturalized citizen; this is a crock of shit.

People come here because they want to seek a better life and pursue the American Dream (not me, obviously, but other people) - how on earth is that not 'wanting to participate in the American experiment'.

We keep our poor like kings in other parts of the world, if you haven't noticed. One could certainly want to come for that.

[Dacien]

Novel question; why.

The US has an open border to the north and had one to the south until the 80s.

If you want to advocate for open borders, you're free to do that, but that's not the system we have now. And in 2018, I think it's a bad idea considering our security concerns.

I'm at work, can't really have a discussion atm.

[Elegiac]

So you're saying that the simple act of consuming something is an economic positive?

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

Why don't we just light goods on fire then? I'm not sure who indoctrinated you, but economies are based on the exchange of goods. Sometimes those goods are abstract. Sometimes their physical. But something must be offered by both parties. What does a generic "consumer" with no skills, no property, etc. offer to the exchange?

I would hardly call actually having read the Wealth of Nations 'indocrination'; I thought you lot worshipped Adam Smith?

What I'm saying by 'consumption is an economic positive' is that market economies are demand driven; their health and growth is determined by the willingness and ability of people to consume goods and services. It's theoretically possible to have most of the population be unemployed but still have an economic that is, by definition, a market economy - as long as people have the liquidity to consume whatever goods are being produced or services are provided.

Also, clearly migrant workers have some skills or people wouldn't bother employing them.

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We keep our poor like kings in other parts of the world, if you haven't noticed. One could certainly want to come for that.

I'm not sure how you think this contradicts what I said.

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If you want to advocate for open borders, you're free to do that, but that's not the system we have now. And in 2018, I think it's a bad idea considering our security concerns.

What "security concerns".

Or are you one of those sad people who actually thinks terrorism is a significant issue.

[Dacien]

@Didactic Among many other issues.

[Elegiac]

@Didactic Among many other issues.

Like what? Drugs? This is a problem with America's backwards drug policy, not with the border. Crime? Immigrant related crime is a drop in the bucket.

Let's be entirely real here; terrorism, drugs, crime, etc. are just proximate justifications. The main problem you and the rest of your lot have is that the border you want to secure is one shared with a brown country.

[Delana]

I would hardly call actually having read the Wealth of Nations 'indocrination'; I thought you lot worshipped Adam Smith?

What I'm saying by 'consumption is an economic positive' is that market economies are demand driven; their health and growth is determined by the willingness and ability of people to consume goods and services. It's theoretically possible to have most of the population be unemployed but still have an economic that is, by definition, a market economy - as long as people have the liquidity to consume whatever goods are being produced or services are provided.


I'm not sure how you think this contradicts what I said.

And if these people don't have such liquidity? Are they a benefit if they are being paid welfare from the state?

There's a difference between someone buying goods with wealth they've earned and someone being given goods. That's the conclusion you would have eventually drawn from the "why don't we just light them on fire" question if you thought about it deeply.

[Elegiac]

And if these people don't have such liquidity? Are they a benefit if they are being paid welfare from the state?

Yep. There's this thing called Universal Basic Income you should read up on.

There's a difference between someone buying goods with wealth they've earned and someone being given goods.

Not really. The former just makes idiot conservatives happy by getting to be superior to 'lazy people'.

Money just functions as a regulatory medium of exchange and store of value; it's entirely possible for economies to function without money.

[Lynarii]

Hell, you want to be serious about securing the southern border?

Build the wall. Pay for it by having everyone who employs an illegal immigrant suffer forfeiture of assets as the proceeds of crime. Wipe every single business employing them off the face of the country permanently, and you'll see very few new illegal immigrants.

[Delana]

Yep. There's this thing called Universal Basic Income you should read up on.



Not really. The former just makes idiot conservatives happy by getting to be superior to 'lazy people'.

Money just functions as a regulatory medium of exchange and store of value; it's entirely possible for economies to function without money.

I've read up on UBI. It provides a biological selection pressure in favor of being dependent on the system. The number of dependents (people consuming more than they produce) will grow without bound until the system collapses or is reformed.

I respect that you're a naturalized citizen. I respect that presumably there's some reason you chose to come here and not stay where you were, or go elsewhere. On the other hand, this is the only country I have. I would very much like to not screw it up experimenting. I know you mean well, but I say to you 3 times. The modern world is not invincible. America is not invincible. It can be destroyed by bad policy. I'd hope you value it enough to respect that fact.

There are no mechanisms in place to correct the systems you suggest. Mass immigration can not be fixed if it turns out to be a bad idea. UBI cannot be undone once you create a generation or two of complete dependents (without huge loss of life).

[Elegiac]

I've read up on UBI. It provides a biological selection pressure in favor of being dependent on the system. The number of dependents (people consuming more than they produce) will grow without bound until the system collapses or is reformed.

What utter nonsense.

Even a fully employed population is still 'dependent on the system'; that's how humans behave. They are a social animal.

I respect that you're a naturalized citizen. I respect that presumably there's some reason you chose to come here and not stay where you were, or go elsewhere. On the other hand, this is the only country I have. I would very much like to not screw it up experimenting. I know you mean well, but I say to you 3 times. The modern world is not invincible. America is not invincible. It can be destroyed by bad policy. I'd hope you value it enough to respect that fact.

Which is why I protest bad policy; like the abortion that is right wing immigration 'reform'.

There are no mechanisms in place to correct the systems you suggest. Mass immigration can not be fixed if it turns out to be a bad idea. UBI cannot be undone once you create a generation or two of complete dependents (without huge loss of life).

Sucks to suck, I guess.

If your attitude towards policy is that if there are risks, it shouldn't be implemented, you might as well give up on policy.

[Hilhen7]

Make a deal with mexico where if they cant fix their people coming to our country illegally we tax the shit out of everything they import into our country unless they pay for every illegal that we have to house.

We could end Mexico and put them under if we wanted but our goverment has been a bunch of pussies not willing to pull the trigger... Fucking turn mexico into the next cuba if they can't fix themselves... People talk about us working with the saudi's and shit and terrists...

Meanwhile drugs coming out of Mexico kill more than 10 ISIS's do.

Yes end Mexico and let the cartels take over. Good strategy.

Also trump already proposed a 20% increase in tariffs.

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A FULLY MONITORED WALL with motion censors and enough border patrol to reach any part of the wall within 15 minutes. Could cut the drug's coming across the border by a large amount....

All the kilo's of coke ain't coming through legal borders. or stuffed up someones asshole.

Good luck finding billions of dollars to fund all of that.

[apeiron1234]

Yes end Mexico and let the cartels take over. Good strategy.

Also trump already proposed a 20% increase in tariffs.

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Good luck finding billions of dollars to fund all of that.

You know it might be worth it because all of the lives lost due to drugs is heartbreaking at this point.

[Elegiac]

You know it might be worth it because all of the lives lost due to drugs is heartbreaking at this point.

Bitch, please. If any of you remotely cared about the drug problem you wouldn't perpetuate the War on Drugs.

[Hilhen7]

You know it might be worth it because all of the lives lost due to drugs is heartbreaking at this point.

Do you realize that more people in the United States die from prescription drugs then from illegal narcotics? The problem isn't Mexico, we are the problem. We consume 75% of the worlds prescription drugs....

If we legalize narcotics we only have to worry about the overdoses, which are going to happen regardless because of abuse of prescription drugs.

[Delana]

What utter nonsense.

Even a fully employed population is still 'dependent on the system'; that's how humans behave. They are a social animal.

Which is why I protest bad policy; like the abortion that is right wing immigration 'reform'.

Some actually produce things. Some literally just collect a check. If you don't like the word "dependent", use whatever word you like to distinguish the too. UBI encourages more of the latter.

So if you and the rest of the world want our country, can we have yours? I don't resent the fact that people want to come, it's a little flattering really.


I know you said earlier that nobody should be concerned about the browning of America, but the story would be different if it was the bleaching of Africa, or India. I profoundly resent the fact that nobody seems to give one single fuck, when it would be completely different if it was the other way around.