Death Knights Shafted Once Again...

[Kelathos]

So I'm going to shameless bump this because according to early data-mining it's looking DKs won't be able to be DID or ZT either
I feel like Blizzard is neglecting us for some other reason outside of lore

You may have noticed that "Hero classes" are more heavily race locked. Blizzard threw Goblins and Worgen a bone for Cata, but the starting areas require lore from a specific time period where Pandaren and future races have no place. It'd be a big shift in policy if Blizzard ever added a new race for DK or DH.

[Gaidax]

To be honest I feel there is some other some other reasons non-lore related that they don't want to do DK allied Races or demon hunters like them starting at higher levels than everyone else; but the fact remains the easiest solution to this is just not allow them to qualify for heritage armor. Done.

You can keep telling yourself that, but reality is yes - Lightforged, Void Elves and Nightborne simply did not exist when your DK initial quest took place.

Lore is already spotty, no need to make it worse just because someone wants something. I want to play Draenei Warlock, guess I have to sit down and wait until they make Eredar allied race if that ever happens.

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You may have noticed that "Hero classes" are more heavily race locked. Blizzard threw Goblins and Worgen a bone for Cata, but the starting areas require lore from a specific time period where Pandaren and future races have no place. It'd be a big shift in policy if Blizzard ever added a new race for DK or DH.

As long as that race existed or was present in Eastern Kingdoms at a time it would not be an issue to add them as Death Knight choice, for example Dark Iron can potentially be added there.

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Let every race be every class! Yeaah, no. Blizzard already cave too much with class restrictions. People coming up with lore "you could say that DKs ate some void food and became void elves" bla bla. Ofc you can make shitty excuses for what you want but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. If we gave up all lore for random requests then what's left of it? I wanna be an alliance harpy shadow paladin but raid with horde and ride deathwing as a mount!

This pretty much, but I am sure that eventually they will cave totally and just sweep the whole thing under the rug. We will have Death Knights eating void food, Draenei Warlocks fighting felfire with felfire and what not.

I, personally, can understand the frustration of some being exempt from the whole Sex Elves party, but I can't help and think it's a good thing for the game overall and the tables will turn eventually because these are very first allied races and if it goes well then the cat's out of the bag and who knows what we will have there... Vrykul or hell Valkyr Death Knights and Eredar Locks? May be a reality in patch 11.2.

[Marrilaife]

You can keep telling yourself that, but reality is yes - Lightforged, Void Elves and Nightborne simply did not exist when your DK initial quest took place.

I agree with Nightborne, they were locked in their bubble. Lightforged draenei are normal draenei, who undergo the process of lightforging (as we see in the scenario). You could say a draenei DK would be ineligible, because Light is against undead creatures (as we know from Forsaken who have no paladins and their priests lorewise serve shadows). So I could give them that. But void elves are normal blood elves, who got corrupted by the void / ethereals. In the scenario we see the expedition is mostly made of mages and warlocks, but who said there couldn't be a death knight among them? If they can be monks and hunters and all other classes that aren't present in the scenario. I can agree blood elf paladins couln't become void elves, and if they did, they would lose their power over the light, as these are opposites (same a Jace the demon hunter tells you because he infused himself with the fel, he can no longer use arcane powers he could in the past, because these powers are opposite). And lorewise blood elf death knights should be more common than draenei or tauren etc. since Arthas ravaged Quel'thalas and killed big portion of their population (possibly turning many into his undead servants). And since the studies of the void start from the journal of Dark'khan Dra'thir (however it's spelled) who was actually serving Arthas and the scourge, I could see it being compelling to blood elf death knights, as death knights don't shun using weapons of their enemies against them, and that includes their former masters. If Dark'khan could study the void, that also means undeath is not a preventing factor. Contrary to it being preventing factor to serve the light, or at least big obstacle.

[Gaidax]

I agree with Nightborne, they were locked in their bubble. Lightforged draenei are normal draenei, who undergo the process of lightforging (as we see in the scenario). You could say a draenei DK would be ineligible, because Light is against undead creatures (as we know from Forsaken who have no paladins and their priests lorewise serve shadows). So I could give them that. But void elves are normal blood elves, who got corrupted by the void / ethereals. In the scenario we see the expedition is mostly made of mages and warlocks, but who said there couldn't be a death knight among them? If they can be monks and hunters and all other classes that aren't present in the scenario. I can agree blood elf paladins couln't become void elves, and if they did, they would lose their power over the light, as these are opposites (same a Jace the demon hunter tells you because he infused himself with the fel, he can no longer use arcane powers he could in the past, because these powers are opposite). And lorewise blood elf death knights should be more common than draenei or tauren etc. since Arthas ravaged Quel'thalas and killed big portion of their population (possibly turning many into his undead servants). And since the studies of the void start from the journal of Dark'khan Dra'thir (however it's spelled) who was actually serving Arthas and the scourge, I could see it being compelling to blood elf death knights, as death knights don't shun using weapons of their enemies against them, and that includes their former masters. If Dark'khan could study the void, that also means undeath is not a preventing factor. Contrary to it being preventing factor to serve the light, or at least big obstacle.

In case you were not paying attention - there were no Void Elves at all before Alleria intervened. The whole Void Elves came to be because Magister Umbric took a bunch of followers after some artifact they eventually found and which almost consumed all of them if not Alleria who saved them last moment.

Alleria in her turn was not anywhere near Azeroth with her newfound Void powers during Lich King times, it all happened just now at the final chapter of Legion and this led to Void Elves - there were no Void Elves at all before that as a thing.

Same with Lightforged Draenei - it's not just some run of the mill Draenei that got fed some Naaru tarts and suddenly started to glow. These specifically are members of Army of the Light who were infused by Light itself in a specific way that only Army of the Light knows, that's why you have this quest that shows you exactly how this happens. Army of the Light only appeared recently after Argus way was opened.


That is why in no way or shape Void Elves or Lightforged Draenei can be Death Knights in a scenario that happens when Arthas Lich King is still alive and kicking.

[Marrilaife]

In case you were not paying attention - there were no Void Elves at all before Alleria intervened. The whole Void Elves came to be because Magister Umbric took a bunch of followers after some artifact they eventually found and which almost consumed all of them if not Alleria who saved them last moment.

I mean they would be blood elf death knights who turned into void elves, so they were dks first then voided up. Not the other way around (first void elves, then died and turned into dks). Most of Umbric followers are presented as Mages and Warlocks, yet Void Elves can be other classes than just Mages and Warlocks, so there must be more to this "expedition" than just Mages and Warlocks who turned void.

P.S. Gameplay wise, they would have to skip the DK intro quest in the same way allied races don't start at lvl 1 and skip intro zones. I assume the biggest reason they can't be DKs is not lore, but rather not letting people skip extra 40 levels towards their heritage armor. I wonder how will they handle Dark Irons then, because everyone will make Dark Iron DK and not Warrior or Rogue if they want heritage asap.

[Projectmars]

Two things:

1. The data we have is currently incomplete; Dark Iron Paladins are confirmed, but not currently shown on the Alpha.

2. Dark Iron Death Knights are currently listed as a combination on the Alpha.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=281631/e...-and-npc-races

The link also mentions that Death Knights weren't considered for any Allied Race.

[Carnagefiend]

I mean they would be blood elf death knights who turned into void elves, so they were dks first then voided up. Not the other way around (first void elves, then died and turned into dks). Most of Umbric followers are presented as Mages and Warlocks, yet Void Elves can be other classes than just Mages and Warlocks, so there must be more to this "expedition" than just Mages and Warlocks who turned void.

P.S. Gameplay wise, they would have to skip the DK intro quest in the same way allied races don't start at lvl 1 and skip intro zones. I assume the biggest reason they can't be DKs is not lore, but rather not letting people skip extra 40 levels towards their heritage armor. I wonder how will they handle Dark Irons then, because everyone will make Dark Iron DK and not Warrior or Rogue if they want heritage asap.

Everyone keeps saying this.

"If the intro was different."

It's not different because you were not just any Death Knight, you were a POWERFUL Death Knight raised into undeath by Arthas' Scourge. The same applies to Demon Hunters, in which you play an Elf that joined Illidan and Kael'thas during the events prior to the Burning Crusade, completed the change before/during BC, and then were unleashed after Cordana Felsong opened the prisons AFTER the events of Draenor.

If you want to RP something different, that's your prerogative and I'm sure your RP guild will support you. But from Blizzard's LORE point of view, the roles of Demon Hunters and Death Knights is extremely specific. If you were not an active race during time of Arthas' assault on Light's Hope, you are -disqualified-.

[Marrilaife]

If you were not an active race during time of Arthas' assault on Light's Hope, you are -disqualified-.

Yeah they were active during that time. As blood elves.

[Gaidax]

I mean they would be blood elf death knights who turned into void elves, so they were dks first then voided up.

That could be a plausible loophole, somewhat. But I think that is stretching things a lot, I am much more inclined to believe that Umbric followers from Silvermoon include Rangers and Priests, than Death Knights which are pretty much the guys who destroyed Silvermoon.

The fact that Death Knights are members of Alliance or Horde does not mean that they get invited to your casual tea parties in Silvermoon and mingle with Magisters and their guarded secrets there, after all Umbric took his followers, not just some bunch of randoms he scrounged from hell knows where and certainly not bloody Death Knights who are already banished from Silvermoon.

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All in all, you are right, if they would put an extra mile into it, they could have come up with some sort of excuse to have Void Elf Death Knights, but IMO it is a simple and understandable combination of not wanting to stretch lore even thinner than it is (honestly Void Elves themselves are super iffy already, why not Sunblade then pray tell? Would actually make more sense to have some pockets of those surviving or being reformed, especially with Legion around, that a bunch of elves suddenly getting fed on void juice from seemingly nowhere).

I guess they really did not want to make that stretch because it would make it both even weirder and shakier AND besides that - Death Knights certainly do not suffer from lack of race choices. You have some classes that effectively have only one race or two choices per faction and it's not only DH, I'd imagine those get a priority.

[Atreyes]

Why is it that whenever Blizzard decides to add new races to the game Death Knights are never considered?

Believe me, I understand the whole "It's about the Lore" arguments but look at it from our point of view. These races are being marketed and promoted as "new content" as part of the new expansion, so what we're essentially being told is go ahead and enjoy them...that is unless of course you play Death knights or Demon Hunters then screw you. What about Pandaren, this race has been exposed to the other continents and death knights for years now and we still can't roll Pandaraen Death Knights?

Come on Blizzard work with us here, can we just let players enjoy all the new content and not be restricted because of the class I play? Just let me roll a Void Elf Death Knight for goodness sake!

I'm not saying every class should be able to be every race in the game, but there are certainly clear and valid arguments to be made for allowing Death Knights to be Void Elves, Highmountain Tauren and Pandaren; you can even find these NPCS in the game. We've been raising new Death knights the entire time in Legion and Bolvar could very well make new ones as well if he wanted.

Paladins too, still only two horde paladin races.

[Carnagefiend]

Yeah they were active during that time. As blood elves.

What exactly is the point that you're making here?

Ren'dorei are not Sin'dorei are not Quel'dorei are not Kal'dorei.

Before the Well of Eternity Quel'dorei did not exist.

Before the Third War Sin'dorei did not exist.

Before Alleria's escapades in the Void Ren'dorei did not exist. A Blood Elf void researcher is still just a Blood Elf, they're called Priests or Warlocks.

[Marrilaife]

Before Alleria's escapades in the Void Ren'dorei did not exist. A Blood Elf void researcher is still just a Blood Elf, they're called Priests or Warlocks.

In that case why aren't void elves restricted to priests, mages and warlocks? Gameplay wise it's lame, but lore wise it seems that would be the only plausible classes from amongst Umbric's entourage. A void elf monk or hunter makes little sense to be a researcher of the void.

The only blood elves we witness to transform into void elves are mages and warlocks that went into the rift with Umbric. Yet void elves offer other classes to play as well, so either we assume they were there, just not shown, or it stops making sense.

[Carnagefiend]

In that case why aren't void elves restricted to priests, mages and warlocks? Gameplay wise it's lame, but lore wise it seems that would be the only plausible classes from amongst Umbric's entourage. A void elf monk or hunter makes little sense to be a researcher of the void.

The only blood elves we witness to transform into void elves are mages and warlocks that went into the rift with Umbric. Yet void elves offer other classes to play as well, so either we assume they were there, just not shown, or it stops making sense.

That still doesn't change the fact that they're there. If you want to have a discussion about stuff that's -in the game- that's one thing.

This is a discussion about things that are -not- in the game.

Two completely different topics.

[Marrilaife]

You have some classes that effectively have only one race or two choices per faction and it's not only DH, I'd imagine those get a priority.

Apparently not. It seems Blizzard feels generic classes like warrior, hunter or mage should be accessible to nearly every single race, but druids, paladins and shamans need to be extremely restricted. Horde did not get new paladin race, alliance did not get new druid or shaman race.

[Aliven]

What exactly is the point that you're making here?

Ren'dorei are not Sin'dorei are not Quel'dorei are not Kal'dorei.

Before the Well of Eternity Quel'dorei did not exist.

Before the Third War Sin'dorei did not exist.

Before Alleria's escapades in the Void Ren'dorei did not exist. A Blood Elf void researcher is still just a Blood Elf, they're called Priests or Warlocks.

DK can raise new dk. Argument is invalid.

[Gaidax]

In that case why aren't void elves restricted to priests, mages and warlocks? Gameplay wise it's lame, but lore wise it seems that would be the only plausible classes from amongst Umbric's entourage. A void elf monk or hunter makes little sense to be a researcher of the void.

The only blood elves we witness to transform into void elves are mages and warlocks that went into the rift with Umbric. Yet void elves offer other classes to play as well, so either we assume they were there, just not shown, or it stops making sense.

It's not difficult to imagine why Priests are in the mix, so I won't even bother with that. Warriors, Hunters and even Monks could be anything ranging from guards to entourage to simple Silvermoon sympathizers who are eager to get a taste of power/knowledge.

Not a big problem to imagine that, they are all casual Silvemoon citizens who may have listened to blabbering of Umbric and his ilk. Death Knights are definitely not your casual Silvermoon citizens and would not be admitted to the club.

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DK can raise new dk. Argument is invalid.

Player Death Knight is the original Death Knight raised directly under Arthas watchful eye as pet project, it's not your run off the mill no.49867546 Death Knight you gunned down in Naxx. There is a very good reason you have that starting experience.

[Marrilaife]

That still doesn't change the fact that they're there. If you want to have a discussion about stuff that's -in the game- that's one thing.

This is a discussion about things that are -not- in the game.

Two completely different topics.

How is it different? How is void elf monk justified but void elf dk not? Since both are available to their "parent" race which was blood elves, but neither are present in the recruitment scenario.

[Carnagefiend]

How is it different? How is void elf monk justified but void elf dk not? Since both are available to their "parent" race which was blood elves, but neither are present in the recruitment scenario.

There is a difference between wondering how a fetid, disgusting, rotting human corpse would dain to become a monk (Undead Monk), and wondering why there are no void elves or Lightforged present during the assault on the Scarlet Crusade.

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DK can raise new dk. Argument is invalid.

Death Knights in the game come from a specific point in history. All Death Knights in the game were raised by Arthas' Scourge. Therefore, your counter argument is invalid.

[Gaidax]

Apparently not. It seems Blizzard feels generic classes like warrior, hunter or mage should be accessible to nearly every single race, but druids, paladins and shamans need to be extremely restricted. Horde did not get new paladin race, alliance did not get new druid or shaman race.

That is because generic classes are generic and plentiful. You don't need any lore justification for Warriors or Hunters that's why pretty much every race has these. Mages are open only when they make sense and they make sense for pretty much every race aside from Tauren (and bloody orcs, honestly, which is a case of huge stretch showing why these things should NOT be a thing).

Druids, Paladins, Death Knights are much more restricted because it's not your run off the mill Joe the Village Guard or Bob the Hunter - it requires much more unusual circumstances to become either of those. In case of Death Knights - the circumstances are that the race makes logical sense to have presence in Azeroth during Northrend events.

[Aliven]

It's not difficult to imagine why Priests are in the mix, so I won't even bother with that. Warriors, Hunters and even Monks could be anything ranging from guards to entourage to simple Silvermoon sympathizers who are eager to get a taste of power/knowledge.

Not a big problem to imagine that, they are all casual Silvemoon citizens who may have listened to blabbering of Umbric and his ilk. Death Knights are definitely not your casual Silvermoon citizens and would not be admitted to the club.

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Player Death Knight is the original Death Knight raised directly under Arthas watchful eye as pet project, it's not your run off the mill no.49867546 Death Knight you gunned down in Naxx. There is a very good reason you have that starting experience.

Shortsight on blizz part. From lore standpoint each race can be a dk. There is no difference from our pet dk and nazgrim for example.