The Old God and the Sea

[OIS]

I don't think you understand what Blizzard is doing. They nerfed the Old Gods to the ground, but the Old Gods have hivemind themes. Il'gynoth is described as being part of N'zoth, while also acting as a separate entity with its own name. Same goes for each and every Faceless One.

The current idea for Old Gods is probably that the Void Lords are the Old Gods, in the same way N'zoth is Il'gynoth. That's how they're resolving the power level questions, where they've been using Old Gods at two very different power levels. The solution is to split them up into the physical manifestation of Void, the Old Gods, and the incorporeal and deathless spirit of the Void, the Void Lords.

Who says that?

[Deleted]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

"Boring"? I'd recommend you learning a little bit more about the old Gods lore. And if you're already familiar with the lore then I'm sorry, friend, but you're in the vast minority. Old Gods and the mysteries surrounding them are awesome, you just need to get yourself into it a little bit more and learn a bit about their lore, you'll find it interesting and not boring at all.

[KrakHed]

Who says that?

Who says what part? That Il'gynoth is a growth of N'zoth? Xal'atath says that. She also calls the Faceless One in the Violet Hold a pustule of his, though he used to be connected to Yogg-Saron considering it stopped moving after Yoggy was defeated. In Nazmir questing, a Faceless One is summoned as the Avatar of G'huun, but has a separate name and refers to G'huun as a separate entity, while also claiming to speak for G'huun. The fact a Faceless One went comatose after Yogg was killed also shows they're only semi-independent.

The reasonable conclusion is that it's just as Xal'atath says. These beings are parts of their God. If this pattern continues even higher up the rungs, then it's easily possible that Old Gods are just part of the Void Lords. Localized semi-autonomous avatars.

[OIS]

Who says what part? That Il'gynoth is a growth of N'zoth? Xal'atath says that. She also calls the Faceless One in the Violet Hold a pustule of his, though he used to be connected to Yogg-Saron considering it stopped moving after Yoggy was defeated. In Nazmir questing, a Faceless One is summoned as the Avatar of G'huun, but has a separate name and refers to G'huun as a separate entity, while also claiming to speak for G'huun. The fact a Faceless One went comatose after Yogg was killed also shows they're only semi-independent.

The reasonable conclusion is that it's just as Xal'atath says. These beings are parts of their God. If this pattern continues even higher up the rungs, then it's easily possible that Old Gods are just part of the Void Lords. Localized semi-autonomous avatars.

We know that the n'raqi were spawned from Old God flesh, but I don't think that's conclusive evidence. Mindflayer Kaahrj is a special case IMO. Have you ever heard of a faceless one lapsing into a catatonic state? Plus, he talks only about N'Zoth in his fight, yet went comatose after Yogg-Saron's defeat. If the guy is a part of Yogg-Saron, why does he say that blood of N'Zoth runs through him? If he is a part of N'Zoth, why did he go into a coma when Yogg-Saron was defeated? Or do you think Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth are different parts of the same Void Lord? At this point we are verging into headcanon territory.

I think the reasonable conclusion is that these beings are semi-independent because their purpose is to serve the Old Gods. That's what they are created for. They can act on their own but they can't go against their original directive.

[Aucald]

Who says what part? That Il'gynoth is a growth of N'zoth? Xal'atath says that. She also calls the Faceless One in the Violet Hold a pustule of his, though he used to be connected to Yogg-Saron considering it stopped moving after Yoggy was defeated. In Nazmir questing, a Faceless One is summoned as the Avatar of G'huun, but has a separate name and refers to G'huun as a separate entity, while also claiming to speak for G'huun. The fact a Faceless One went comatose after Yogg was killed also shows they're only semi-independent.

The reasonable conclusion is that it's just as Xal'atath says. These beings are parts of their God. If this pattern continues even higher up the rungs, then it's easily possible that Old Gods are just part of the Void Lords. Localized semi-autonomous avatars.

My theory on Mindflayer Kaarhrj is that he was effected by the psychic shockwave sent out on the occasion of Yogg-Saron's death - something that essentially knocked him for a loop and put him into stasis until he came close to another Old God and essentially powered back up. I don't think the Faceless Ones are only semi-independent but I do think they share a profound bond with their Old God lords, especially since their primary means of communication appears to be telepathic in nature. Trauma or death of a nearby Old God would probably strongly effect *any* of the Faceless Ones (N'raqi or C'Thraxxi) in their vicinity, said vicinity likely spanning most of a continent.

[Arrashi]

Personally, I preferred the Old Gods before we knew about their backstory and purpose - when they loomed in the background fringes of the story as ill-defined and somewhat nebulous. Knowing that they're simply a catspaw for the Void Lords to infect the physical universe robs them of much of their mystery, which in turn makes them somewhat less powerful story-elements in their own right. I think I prefer the Old Gods and their Black Empire a bit more than I do the Burning Legion as antagonists, though - the demons have always felt a little too external to me, a little too of an outside threat. The Old Gods have been with us since the beginning, though; barely glimpsed through the pages of history but always shaping events to their advantage from the shadows. The feel both like a more direct threat and simultaneously cloaked in layers of subterfuge and secrecy.

So, old gods were much better when they actually tried to tied themselves to original ideas of lovecraft rather than just becoming cheap rip-off of warhammer chaos. I think thats pretty common sentiment.

[Aucald]

So, old gods were much better when they actually tried to tied themselves to original ideas of lovecraft rather than just becoming cheap rip-off of warhammer chaos. I think thats pretty common sentiment.

Well, when you use Lovecraft's story-elements you tend to face the same conundrum as the man himself did with his stories - you can only sell mystery and shadows for so long before people lose interest. Eventually you have to produce the monster only vaguely glimpsed in the shadows, or spoken of in the eldritch texts, and a good 75% of the time you'll find the typical human reaction of defense kicks in and your audience leans back and says something along the lines of "oh, a bat made of shadows with a three-lobed eye? Phew, I thought for a minute it was going to be a four-lobed eye." And so your bogeyman monster is sapped of their power to inspire terror or horror and you've lost the proverbial ballgame in the last inning.

I recognize the process and can only lament it when it goes down the almost unavoidable arc of descent.

[Wilfire]

It's useful to think of the Old Gods as the Hive Fleets from Warhammer 40k (which, by the way, inspired Warcraft). They all have their own distinctive characteristics but ultimately they are all just extensions of the Hive Mind. Look at the map of the Black Empire. N'Zoth himself probably wasn't that big - but all of the Aqir and the N'raqi spawned by him were extensions of himself.

There are probably Void Lords called N'Zoth, Yogg-Saron, C'Thun and Y'Shaarj. It would be way cooler than coming up with completely new antagonists that had never been mentioned before.

[KrakHed]

We know that the n'raqi were spawned from Old God flesh, but I don't think that's conclusive evidence. Mindflayer Kaahrj is a special case IMO. Have you ever heard of a faceless one lapsing into a catatonic state? Plus, he talks only about N'Zoth in his fight, yet went comatose after Yogg-Saron's defeat. If the guy is a part of Yogg-Saron, why does he say that blood of N'Zoth runs through him? If he is a part of N'Zoth, why did he go into a coma when Yogg-Saron was defeated? Or do you think Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth are different parts of the same Void Lord? At this point we are verging into headcanon territory.

I think the reasonable conclusion is that these beings are semi-independent because their purpose is to serve the Old Gods. That's what they are created for. They can act on their own but they can't go against their original directive.

I explain that easily enough. Old Gods war with one another all the time, so there's no reason for a Daceless One to serve any and all Old Gods. Why the fuck is a Faceless One from Northrend serving N'zoth? Was he a lost soldier of N'zoth? Or is it the other possibility?

Did N'zoth just psychicly hook himself up to a deactivated Faceless One and reprogram it to serve himself?

[OIS]

I explain that easily enough. Old Gods war with one another all the time, so there's no reason for a Daceless One to serve any and all Old Gods. Why the fuck is a Faceless One from Northrend serving N'zoth? Was he a lost soldier of N'zoth? Or is it the other possibility?

Did N'zoth just psychicly hook himself up to a deactivated Faceless One and reprogram it to serve himself?

You said the n'raqi were parts of the Old Gods. If they have no clear loyalties to any of the gods then whose parts are them? All of them at the same time? That's some Chaos Undivided fuckery, it's never seen in Warcraft so far AFAIK.

[Dellis0991]

Old man and the sea, but with a twist.

That twist being tentacles!

[Dagoth Ur]

So, old gods were much better when they actually tried to tied themselves to original ideas of lovecraft rather than just becoming cheap rip-off of warhammer chaos. I think thats pretty common sentiment.

Same thing happened to Reapers in ME. Both are instances of where explaining more about them does more damage than good long term.

[KrakHed]

You said the n'raqi were parts of the Old Gods. If they have no clear loyalties to any of the gods then whose parts are them? All of them at the same time? That's some Chaos Undivided fuckery, it's never seen in Warcraft so far AFAIK.

You misunderstand me. Faceless Ones have very clear loyalties. But one without a God is just a meat husk for any random God to fill. Loyalties can be transferred. One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.

[Doffen]

The Black Empire is something I personally find very interesting. One expansions where the Void Lords throw out new Old Gods onto Azeroth(or another planet) and we are having a Black Empire 2.0. I would love that.

Old Gods are not as definite as the Burning Legion, it´s mysterious and dark. Can totally dig that.

[frogger237]

Old gods are some of the best villains ever in the Warcraft universe for reasons that have been listed above. I wish they were the top dogs of the Void though and not the Void Lords.

The only reasons listed above you are Lovecraft fans and they are mysterious. That doesn't make a good villain, and def doesn't make some of the best villains. And hate to break it to you guys the mystery is over: Old gods are big space parasites.

[KrakHed]

Well, since everyone is saying what they think of Old Gods, I'll just say this. I have nothing but contempt for Warcraft's portrayal of them, and I personally love Gods, both alien and dark. Divine beings incompatible with our morals, who see things another way. Dark gods of tremendous power who can sway the souls of mortals by exposing them to a perspective they never considered before. Whispering madness is for losers. Give me a god who can explain the necessity of blood sacrifices, the necessity of its own existence and everything it does, and you've got something special.

See, I've always thought the faux Lovecraftian style was never done right. I mean, using the visuals is fine. Tentacles, eyes, and generally inhuman form. That creates the idea that humans aren't special to this God. But people generally don't understand Lovecraft well enough to make use of the rest, and Old Gods aren't very Lovecraftian at all.

The best way to handle Gods like that, if you can't make them truly Lovecraftian entities, is to make them Gods.

[Deleted]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

They've been done to death already. Subtly in Wotlk and really head on in Cata.
In MoP however, Old God status and mythos kinda shifted with Y'shaarj and the various Sha.
So yeah, I am really interested in how they portray N'zoth. Even tho I fear it might be just as bland as in Cata. And I would also like if they waited few patches.. maybe even a full expansion before they'll go heavy on the Old God stuff.

[Heladys]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

Because old gods are cool. If you're tired of reading shit before the xpansion maybe stay the fuck off the forums.

[Destinas]

You misunderstand me. Faceless Ones have very clear loyalties. But one without a God is just a meat husk for any random God to fill. Loyalties can be transferred. One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.

The Aqir were also spawned from the Old Gods' bodies and have clear loyalties - yet they somewhat stick to their own Old Gods in lore. After Y'Shaarj "died" the Mantid continued to worship him and await his return, happily joining him as they had before. They didn't switch off to another Old God during the thousands upon thousands of years Y'Shaarj was simply a heart and seven heads. The Nerubians, seemingly, stopped worshiping Yogg, but didn't switch off to another Old God. The only time we see an Aqir-related race that didn't belong to a specific Old God was in Hearthstone (which is not entirely canon) - N'Zoth's First Mate seems to be a Qiraji, which have previously only been loyal to C'Thun.

[Santti]

The Old Gnome and the Sea.

Gnomes are harbingers of the Old Gods confirmed. Or Old Gods themselves, even?