Why is the Horde evil when Alliance is the one starting the wars? (maybe spoilers)

[Deleted]

---snip---

You seem to miss all the Horde attacks though, dating back from the first war originally. Then, after peace was achieved because of Jaina choosing Thrall over her father, Horde started acting up again by sneaking into forests without asking.

Mod Edit: Only quote what you're actually responding to, instead of quoting a very long post just to supply a small paragraph response. Failing that, just ---snip--- the quote as I did above.

[FelPlague]

It does, because Jaina wanted to fucking dismantle the Horde and the only reason Varian didn't go with it is because the Horde itself played a part in Garrosh's dethronment.



You make it sound like using ginormous nukes is Horde's usual warfare. Garrosh's usage of a mana bomb empowered with the fucking Focusing Iris was an unique event instigated by Garrosh's warmongering, a plan he and a few loyalists knew shit about.

Then what else? The Blight? The Blight is no "nuke", is chemical artillery. There's nothing "evil" in using such a weapon in war, at the very most it should be used wisely to not make such use counterproductive.

actually the "horde" used one before theramore
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mana_bomb

but i wouldent push it on them as it was kalethas and his blood elves (no longer part of the horde at that point) but this mana bomb was not unique, it was based off that bomb, so garrosh very much was fine with copying what kalethas did in outland. but even more powerful.

- - - Updated - - -

True enough, and I'm sure there's a handful of minor Lordaeronian nobility who were abroad when Lordaeron fell and could be in Stormwind even now - the least of which could be used as a catspaw to get a lock on that legitimate conquest.

that and calia is still alive and very much alliance.
so if we are arguing "the land belongs to them" no it belongs to her as the last living heir. but whateves. Sylvanas rather have no one have it then the alliance.

[Aquamonkey]

actually the "horde" used one before theramore
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mana_bomb

but i wouldent push it on them as it was kalethas and his blood elves (no longer part of the horde at that point) but this mana bomb was not unique, it was based off that bomb, so garrosh very much was fine with copying what kalethas did in outland. but even more powerful.

Kael'thas and his BElves were never part of the Horde... they were Alliance.

[FelPlague]

Kael'thas and his BElves were never part of the Horde... they were Alliance.

oh yes guess you are right, forgot that kalethas and his dudes left to outland before joining the horde.

[Aucald]

that and calia is still alive and very much alliance.
so if we are arguing "the land belongs to them" no it belongs to her as the last living heir. but whateves. Sylvanas rather have no one have it then the alliance.

Absent a monarch I guess one would say the land belongs to its people - but the issue is identifying who those people actually are. The Forsaken *want* Sylvanas as their monarch, and if they are the legitimate denizens of the land and Calia doesn't wish to challenge Sylvanas' rule then that settles it. If the Forsaken aren't legitimate then the issue becomes a bit more snarled - which I guess is the legal casuistry the Alliance planned on using to wrest the land back from its current (undead) population. Given that the state of law in Azeroth is more of the "might makes right" variety, and that undeath is a nebulous concept to begin with when it comes to determining legitimacy of inheritance, I'd say this is really in the realm of more theoretical speculation. In real-world (of Warcraft) terms, the land belongs to whoever can defend it or claim it by force of arms.

[meowfurion]

Because Horde are dirty, uncircumsized, mongrel smelly Eurotrash of Azeroth who are arrogant for no actual reason or proof.

Infracted.

[DeicideUH]

Kael'thas and his BElves were never part of the Horde... they were Alliance.

They had abandoned (or, if you wish, were betrayed by) the Alliance at that point. Kael'thas saw the Alliance as his enemy.

Also, if we really want to be technical, Kael and his Sunfury were not Horde, but the Sunfury returned to Quel'thalas and joined the Horde afterwards.

(no, I'm not blaming the Horde for that particular bombs in Outland).

[Aucald]

They had abandoned (or, if you wish, were betrayed by) the Alliance at that point. Kael'thas saw the Alliance as his enemy.

Also, if we really want to be technical, Kael and his Sunfury were not Horde, but the Sunfury returned to Quel'thalas and joined the Horde afterwards.

(no, I'm not blaming the Horde for that particular bombs in Outland).

Kael and his Sunfury were pretty much their own faction (together alongside the Illidari of TBC, I would say), whereas the goverment in Silvermoon joined the Horde for mutual protection from what they felt was an aggressive Alliance force in their own lands. Before Kael's betrayal and flip to the Legion the idea was for Silvermoon to reconnect with Kael and move entirely to Outland, where they could be quit of both the Horde and Alliance altogether in a mana-rich land where their addiction would be forever sated (supposedly). That didn't come to pass, of course; and so the Blood Elves of Silvermoon retained their loyalty to the Horde, severed ties with the now corrupted and insane Kael, and so on.

[Mehrunes]

Possession ends with death. This is the foundation of the concept of inheritance. The dead can not possess. Which makes it not their rightful territory.

Otherwise Doomhammer is still Warchief, as if the Horde doesn't accept the concept of inheritance, Thrall couldn't inherit the title of Warchief from Doomhammer as it still belongs to him once he died.

Dead. Undead. Spot the difference. People who die but are resuscitated don't lose possession of their things either.

I didn't say otherwise, I said at least I know why I was thinking treaty.

Fair enough :3

the wotlk war was started because "the undead did this" when really it was a group of renegades, but once fixed the war ended

That war only ended in MoP, there was no peace signed between WotLK and Cata.

the cataclysm war was started by the twilight cultists, not the horde or the alliance

Still not how things work. Even if the WotLK war ended, which it did not, Twilight Hammer, being a separate party from both the Horde and Alliance, cannot start a war between the two of them. They can only start a war between themselves and Horde and/or Alliance. In regards to Alliance-Horde relations they can only instigate them to start a war. And while they soured relations, the Alliance and the Horde were still trying to sort things out diplomatically after their sabotage. Stop spreading your cluelessness on basic rules of international laws and politics.

the mop war seems to have been started by the horde, but we dont know for sure

The MoP war isn't even a separate one from Cata (or WotLK).

BFA is started by the horde, they are collecting a massivly strong material from a neutral zone without telling the alliance. with only "one threat" they could use it against, the alliance, so the alliances hand is forced.

The Horde is under no obligation to tell the Alliance squat and they are free to mine whatever they want in a territory that doesn't belong to anyone in particular. When the Alliance player is sent to attack the Horde outpost in Silithus Alliance spies don't find anything about Horde's plans yet. Even if they did, the Horde is free to stockpile as many weapons as they want. And even if they did #2, Alliance's hand "being forced" would still be them attacking first.

the horde starts most, but alliance has started some, for example legion, the alliance did attack first, specificly the admiral who you lot will be killing soon so.

As well as Alterac Valley, WotLK-MoP war and BfA.

Maybe the trolls moved on up to a deluxe apartment in the sky on the east side.

So Trolls are the Apexis of Azeroth (well, at least what they believed to be until Chronicles v2)?

Pretty sure their beef is with all the living.

Pretty sure Sylvanas' beef is still explicitly with humans for "spawning Arthas". Dwarves of Dun'garok were killed because they were a local nuisance that aided the humans.

If you're going by that, then yes, they do.

Not only did she renounce her family name, but it's unknown if she ever had the right to inherit in the first place. She was older than Arthas, yet was skipped. Lordaeron had at least a male preference, but it could have been absolute agnatic system.

You're missing the point. You're replying to my comment about how flimsy the troll empire seemed to be to be pushed away by "proto-humans, proto-dwarves and proto-gnomes".

I'm not missing the point. You made the point about Trolls being flimsy later on and it was followed in another paragraph. In regards to the post you quoted, in the last one that you did not quote here. The point you're replying to here follows from:

Did they? I know the elves and trolls have a lot of bad blood between them, but I don't think I ever read stories of early humans, dwarves and gnomes attacking the trolls. I mean, I don't believe the troll empire stretched over every single inch of land in Azeroth.

All currently human land was taken from either Amani or the Gurrubashi. Humans participated in Troll Wars, where their Mages helped unleash mushroom cloud-generating fire spells on the Amani. Frostmane settled in Dun'morogh before Dwarves and Gnomes. Their land was taken from them (some of the northern Dwarf territory was also Amani land).

I was talking about their beginning. When humans, dwarves and gnomes were just beginning, without their cities of stone and steel.

When they were beginning it was still Troll land. Now it's not. Add 2 and 2 together.

Nothing about their flimsiness. Hell, when you made the comment about Troll empires being supposedly weak in the later post you first repeated the initial claim of not recalling things and then said on a side note (your words) that they were apparently weak. And since it was a side note to the main point that was the core of this specific reply chain, it's even more irrelevant.

You seem to miss all the Horde attacks though, dating back from the first war originally. Then, after peace was achieved because of Jaina choosing Thrall over her father, Horde started acting up again by sneaking into forests without asking.

First of all, those are separate wars. Secondly, I'm talking about events of WoW itself. Which First and Second Wars are not a part of. Thirdly, I acknowledged Horde pressence in Ashenvale earlier in the thread (though for one Ashenvale, you have Dwarves doing the same thing in 3 Horde zones). Finally, this doesn't address anything you quoted so yay for more desperate goalpost moving.

that and calia is still alive and very much alliance.
so if we are arguing "the land belongs to them" no it belongs to her as the last living heir. but whateves. Sylvanas rather have no one have it then the alliance.

You pulled Calia being "very much Alliance" out of thin air. And not only is her claim unconfirmed (her renunciation of her family name aside), but her claim is to memories, given how Menethil's Lordaeron collapsed in a civil war and Forsaken emerged from its ashes.

[Ithekro]

I would point out that spy business is not generally considered open aggression and happens all the time, even between allies.

So no, the Alliance did not start this by attacking Silithus...that was just what normally happens between the Horde and the Alliance on the spy level and hasn't changed since the Dark Portal opened. Even during the lulls between wars and during the peacetimes and even when the two side are joined together against the Legion or Lich King. The spy stuff always happens.

Now if something happens after that, than we will have something. Like the Seething Shores for instance. That would be the start of things.

[Mehrunes]

Kael and his Sunfury were pretty much their own faction (together alongside the Illidari of TBC, I would say), whereas the goverment in Silvermoon joined the Horde for mutual protection from what they felt was an aggressive Alliance force in their own lands. Before Kael's betrayal and flip to the Legion the idea was for Silvermoon to reconnect with Kael and move entirely to Outland, where they could be quit of both the Horde and Alliance altogether in a mana-rich land where their addiction would be forever sated (supposedly). That didn't come to pass, of course; and so the Blood Elves of Silvermoon retained their loyalty to the Horde, severed ties with the now corrupted and insane Kael, and so on.

Speaking of the Sunfury, for all the spotlight Blood Elves and their various subgroups receive, Sunfury's return to Silvermoon was woefully underutilized. Even though they are an elite force and their experience with demons would have come handy in Legion. Plus the whole thing of Kael loyal followers having to coexist with the rest of the Blood Elves opening up interesting venues.

I would point out that spy business is not generally considered open aggression and happens all the time, even between allies.

So no, the Alliance did not start this by attacking Silithus...that was just what normally happens between the Horde and the Alliance on the spy level and hasn't changed since the Dark Portal opened. Even during the lulls between wars and during the peacetimes and even when the two side are joined together against the Legion or Lich King. The spy stuff always happens.

Now if something happens after that, than we will have something. Like the Seething Shores for instance. That would be the start of things.

There's spying and then there's spying, then attacking the outpost you spied.

[Ielenia]

Pretty sure Sylvanas' beef is still explicitly with humans for "spawning Arthas". Dwarves of Dun'garok were killed because they were a local nuisance that aided the humans.

I could be wrong here, but I never heard Sylvanas, or any other Forsaken, ever wish death to humans, specifically. It's always 'the living'. "Death to the living!" and all that jazz. The fact they've targeted mostly humans could be because Lordaeron's borders were littered with human settlements: Gilneas, a Dalaran settlement, the Scarlet Monastery, Hillsbrad Fields, Southshore...

Not only did she renounce her family name, but it's unknown if she ever had the right to inherit in the first place. She was older than Arthas, yet was skipped. Lordaeron had at least a male preference, but it could have been absolute agnatic system.

I don't think she ever formally renounced her right of heir, she might just not like people associating her as the Lich King's sister. She could just be trying to lay low to avoid people being hostile to her due to her blood connection with Arthas.

I'm not missing the point. You made the point about Trolls being flimsy later on and it was followed in another paragraph. In regards to the post you quoted, in the last one that you did not quote here. The point you're replying to here follows from:


Nothing about their flimsiness. Hell, when you made the comment about Troll empires being supposedly weak in the later post you first repeated the initial claim of not recalling things and then said on a side note (your words) that they were apparently weak. And since it was a side note to the main point that was the core of this specific reply chain, it's even more irrelevant.

Fair enough. However, you still mentioned the humans participating in the Troll Wars with their mages and all, but that still doesn't answer my initial idea that the humans, dwarves and gnomes first settled in unclaimed lands, otherwise I doubt they'd be able to mount up an offensive capable of pushing back the troll empire.

[Aucald]

Speaking of the Sunfury, for all the spotlight Blood Elves and their various subgroups receive, Sunfury's return to Silvermoon was woefully underutilized. Even though they are an elite force and their experience with demons would have come handy in Legion. Plus the whole thing of Kael loyal followers having to coexist with the rest of the Blood Elves opening up interesting venues.

I would imagine that with the high caliber of shame that accompanied their loyalty to Kael'thas until his untimely end, the name "Sunfury" probably has been so besmirched at this point that they opted to be parted out to various other regiments - dissolving the Sunfury corps in its entirety. Would be interesting to know their perspective on the matter, though; what kept them loyal until the very end, and whether or not they still share some element of Kael's sentiments toward the Horde or the Alliance? Perhaps if the long-awaited Kael'thas novel actually ever gets made.

[Aquamonkey]

I could be wrong here, but I never heard Sylvanas, or any other Forsaken, ever wish death to humans, specifically. It's always 'the living'. "Death to the living!" and all that jazz. The fact they've targeted mostly humans could be because Lordaeron's borders were littered with human settlements: Gilneas, a Dalaran settlement, the Scarlet Monastery, Hillsbrad Fields, Southshore...

"At last, Arthas, you will pay for what you have done. The humans who spawned such as you shall be slaughtered."
--Rise of the Lich King

[Ielenia]

"At last, Arthas, you will pay for what you have done. The humans who spawned such as you shall be slaughtered."
--Rise of the Lich King

Forgot about that. Yeah, she does seem to have a special place in her blackened, rotten, dead heart for humans. But that doesn't mean she is after only the humans, though.

[Arrashi]

Because Horde are dirty, uncircumsized, mongrel smelly Eurotrash of Azeroth who are arrogant for no actual reason or proof.

Infracted.

Wait, is telling someone that they don't have crippled penis supposed to be insult ?

[Combatbutler]

Forgot about that. Yeah, she does seem to have a special place in her blackened, rotten, dead heart for humans. But that doesn't mean she is after only the humans, though.

It is never mentioned by Sylvanas to go for all the living, it was rather the apothecary society working under Putress trying to alter it to kill as much as possible, in the end betraying Sylvanas. She wanted the blight specifically as a means for vengeance against the scourge and humanity.

[meowfurion]

Wait, is telling someone that they don't have crippled penis supposed to be insult ?

HAHAHAHA. It’s a freaking joke. How triggered by that are you that you would report me. Lol.

[Arrashi]

HAHAHAHA. It’s a freaking joke. How triggered by that are you that you would report me. Lol.

I didn't need to report you dear. And thats because, there is mod actively posting in this thread.

Also 10/10 sense of humor

[Radaney]

-Gnomeregan
-A weapon that kills everyone, oh noes. I'll take "What's the point of weapons for $200, Alex". Also, only the accidental strain of Blight at Southshore has been said to make the land uninhabitable. Also, Blight isn't a plague. And speaking of making the land uninhabitable, also Gnomeregan.
-MoP.
-Tides of War.
-You still failing to grasp 6 years later that Sylvanas was shit-talking Garrosh to annoy him is something that you should look into, not an argument. Even Garrosh was able to realize it for what it is. In one second.

Thermaplugg was never really part of the Alliance...

Also not sure Gnomes blowing themselves up really helps your argument.

Suppose it's the best you've got though.