Why arming teachers is not the answer.

[Swalload]

The problem is that we have unstable people that are not properly treated, and easy access to guns for nearly everyone. You can either make sure everyone is well adjusted or in treatment, or you can restrict access to guns. Which do you suppose is easier?
[citation needed]
Why are you politicizing a tragedy?
So nobody can argue the points you make without citing any sources, because they are "studied cases". Got it. No references to which cases were studied or anything like that where one might be able to verify your claims, just baseless shitposting.
[citation needed]
I'm pretty sure people can have no outward signs of a mental instability, yet have a psychotic break one day and go nuts. Or a death in the family or other inciting event turns a normal, well-adjusted kid into a killer.
[citation needed]
Not quite. The desire to kill people is obviously the bigger culprit than the existence of guns. The problem is that while a deranged lunatic could run into a school with a knife and kill somebody, or even a few people, a deranged lunatic with a gun is many, MANY times more lethal given the same intent.
Possibly, but using a gun creates a sense of detachment. YOU didn't kill them, the bullet did.
Maybe your side should stop defunding things like Medicaid and mental health facilities if you actually believe it is a mental health issue and you actually care about solving the issue.

- - - Updated - - -

This is how you have intelligent debate about gun control.

Kudos.

They're not just "not properly treated", most of them are not looking for help at all. Helping people in need would be about 12 to 15 times easier than reaching the level of gun control needed to see a difference. Because you can't just make it harder to get guns, you need to reduce the amount of guns in the country which means that people will need to be hired to go door to door and steal people's properties. That's how they will see it. How do you think a pro-gun person will react? That's right he will fucking shoot the guy who comes to take his gun. So that guy will also need to be armed and you end up in a fucking shitty situation where inevitably many people will die.
Can't have a voluntary system either, Australia did that and not even half the people owning guns choose to give up their guns. Easy to imagine it will be way less than that in a country that loves guns even more.

About all the "citation needed". You need to go read some more on the subject, I'm not pulling this shit out of my ass but I'm also not bookmarking every sources of information I come across either. The only reason you don't trust what I said and want to see citation is because you have not seen this information due to not informing yourself, not looking to see both sides of this argument.

Sure guns are more dangerous than knives like your exemple accurately says. But then what happens if guns are all banned and a school knifing occurs? The president will say "it's a tragedy but it's the price to pay to ban guns while ignoring the fact that the real problem are people, so 3 people died by knife instead of the zero who would have died if we focused on the real problem instead, great job america at least it's not 17 dead, only 3, who cares we don't have guns we are safe"

I mean at this point what do you want, just less kids dying in school or no kids dying at all? I say aim for the best, don't just settle for a little better.


Contrary to popular belief, my side is not pro 2nd amendment and hardass right wing. I'm not even American. I'm Canadian, I don't own a gun, only tried shooting once, and I don't believe people need guns to defend themselves. However I understand the concept of the 2nd amendment and why it's a big issue in the US because I purposefully go out of my way to inform myself about these issues. I used to be 100% anti-gun and mocked the US for almost "wishing to kill each other off until they're all gone" but after learning about the other side of the argument I understand that it's more complicated and all I had was a biased view because of where I come from. Just like many people here have a biased view based on their belief.

Sure the school shootings are a tragedy but if you look at the debates and shit going on, it's basically a group of people wishing that all guns would just vanish into thin air VS a group of people who see the reality that all of this is extremely complicated considering the current situation in the US.

I'm just sitting here, seeing both sides and since the thread is about gun control, I'm pulling towards the middle to help understand how it's not just as simple as making guns disappear into thin air, the same way that if there was a thread about pro-guns I would tell them that having more guns to defend against other guns is a downward spiral that doesn't work. This is not good VS evil like most leftist think, this is not even a question of money which is an easy subject to use to blame the NRA and whatever, that's just usual left and SJW insult throwing without thinking, nothing the right hasn't seen. Some of these people even think the NRA is a group of people who are actively killing or trying to kill people, they literally don't know anything about the subject and they yell really fucking loud, which entangles a lot of other uneducated people into the subject, effectively brainwashing them and creating an army of morons who just yell and cry a lot over issues they do not understand.

EDIT: The brainwashing that happens about gun control is quite similar to what happened during the election, people spewing shit all over and pulling uneducated people into their agenda pushing crusade. The very vast majority of American voters should not even vote, they never learned enough about politics, they don't care enough, they get biased by facebook posts and twitter, they can't even make an opinion for themselves. Yet they have the right to cast their basically blind vote and be a part of the problem.

[Stormdash]

So generally first world nations are sheep debt slaves without any mechanisms to guarantee even the most basic rights?

A right is not a thing that is a guarantee by any third party. It is either respected (left alone for you exercise as you are of a mind and ability to) or infringed. If the thing in question requires control over the time, life, or treasure or another for you to exercise it, it isn't a right at all. It is some species of entitlement, gift, or privilege.

May be a good idea not to take away their rights if they seek treatment, then.

True, this fixation will only discourage people with mild, undangerous mental illness (depression, anxiety) if it risks disqualifying them from one of their civil liberties.

[Planetdune]

Fighting fire with fire is never the good answer... trying to get to a point where there aren't more guns than Americans would be a good first step.

[Stormdash]

Unless they amend the constitution.

Problem (by which I mean the good news) is there isn't anything resembling popular will sufficient to accomplish that. Need either a state convention or 2/3rds of Congress to present it, and then 38 states to ratify it. In practice, running hard on unabashed "ban the guns" gun control is a reliable, perennial loser in local, state, and national elections. It is a fringe position.

[Jastall]

Everyone does not "know" that this is a terrible idea and the data are against your opinion. For example, 98% of all school shootings occur in gun free zones.
Having trained and armed people in schools act as a deterrent. Soft targets like "gun free zones" ensure that a criminal who brings a gun to commit violence will be successful.

How does the fact that the school in Florida had an armed guard work within this ''soft zone'' narrative?

And why do you believe that school shooters, who are usually suicidal to begin with, will be deterred by a few teachers having guns?

[Antiganon]

Your opinion that there is "easy access to guns for nearly everyone" does not align with the facts. You are lying, either intentionally or through ignorance.
First off, Federal Law requires gun sellers to be licensed and buyers must go through a background check. You can't just walk into a store and purchase a gun.
Secondly, the right to own a gun is enumerated in our Constitution. Meaning that the Government can't make it unreasonably difficult for law abiding citizens to purchase guns.

"Easier" is by far one of the worst and most dangerous metrics to determine the "right" solution. Also making decisions based on emotion rather than logic and reasoning leads to some pretty horrific outcomes.

You can't just walk into a store and buy a gun, true. You can absolutely go on craigslist and find a person selling a gun privately, and buy from them, with no background check. Or you can find a gun show, and buy from a private seller there, again, with no background check.

Not getting into 2A any more than I already have. The courts decided in the 60s that 2A meant individual right to bear arms, they could decide tomorrow that 2A means you need to be enlisted in the Army National Guard and it would still be within the letter of the law as witten.

I am not looking for the "easiest" solution here. I want everyone with mental health problems to get the help they need. My question about "which is easier" is grounded in practicality. My biggest goal here is to not have either of my children have to live through (or worse, die in) a school shooting. I believe that common-sense gun control (which I have outlined many times in this and other gun control threads what I mean by that) stands the best chance at protecting them.

[szechuan]

Some of these people even think the NRA is a group of people who are actively killing or trying to kill people, they literally don't know anything about the subject and they yell really fucking loud, which entangles a lot of other uneducated people into the subject, effectively brainwashing them and creating an army of morons who just yell and cry a lot over issues they do not understand.

NRA's goal is not to kill people, it's to increase the amount of weapons into circulation like usual. The problem with the NRA is the the solution is always more guns.

[Elegiac]

A right is not a thing that is a guarantee by any third party. It is either respected (left alone for you exercise as you are of a mind and ability to) or infringed. If the thing in question requires control over the time, life, or treasure or another for you to exercise it, it isn't a right at all. It is some species of entitlement, gift, or privilege.

If one operates under the (incorrect) assumption that rights exist independently of humans and aren't social constructs that vary by time and culture, and should be evaluated on their merits rather than 'it's a right, end of discussion', sure.

Can't imagine who would be silly enough to believe such a thing, though.

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Problem (by which I mean the good news) is there isn't anything resembling popular will sufficient to accomplish that. Need either a state convention or 2/3rds of Congress to present it, and then 38 states to ratify it. In practice, running hard on unabashed "ban the guns" gun control is a reliable, perennial loser in local, state, and national elections. It is a fringe position.

We've already established that Americans don't care about gun related violence sufficiently to warrant a reevaluation of the existing paradigm.

This is an 'ought' discussion, not an 'is' discussion.

[Deleted]

cant you stop with the threads already ? you dont wanna ban guns so please stop annoying us

[Swalload]

This is a nothing argument. You are aware that mental healthcare includes preventative measures like counseling, right?

Yes. You are aware that most people who are this unstable don't seek counseling at all, right? Preventive measures don't do anything to people who never seek counseling.

Unless you are proposing a solution that includes putting so much budget into health care that they can get shrinks to actively hunt for kids in need who would never go to counseling otherwise. I would be down for that, make it so aggressive that they can catch and fix issues in kids refusing to seek help or don't even know they need help.

[Elegiac]

Yes. You are aware that most people who are this unstable don't seek counseling at all, right? Preventive measures don't do anything to people who never seek counseling.

Then how, pray tell, do you propose "fixing the mental health problem".

Unless your agenda is not actually making anyone better off but deflecting from the issues caused by widespread and loosely regulated firearm ownership.

Unless you are proposing a solution that includes putting so much budget into health care that they can get shrinks to actively hunt for kids in need who would never go to counseling otherwise. I would be down for that, make it so aggressive that they can catch and fix issues in kids refusing to seek help or don't even know they need help.

No system is going to be perfect; however, it's simple enough to have educators made aware of what warning signs to look out for and have them recommend intervention if necessary.

You know, like we already do in theory for kids suffering from abuse.

[LaserChild9]

So exactly like you said, the problem is not the gun but the person using it.

The crazy kids don't wake up one morning and think about using a gun to shoot a school. That's the problem with leftist, they don't think things through.
Here is was really happens, not my opinion but studied cases, so learn from this and never argue about this:
First, the crazy kids are deeply troubled, they show several signs of that like what was shown to us, posts in social medias, showing guns, making violent comments, there are several hints of that in pretty much every cases. And in the cases where there are not much, it's only because the person kept to himself, but they are just equally troubled.
The thoughts of killing people come to them long before the idea of using a gun. The real problem is not the access to a gun, but the fact that they think about killing people. THAT'S the problem that really needs to be fixed. If that problem is fixed, the country could have more guns than the amount of people on the entire planet and it would not even be an issue because no one would feel the need to use them against people.

Guns don't mind control people, people don't have the sudden urge to use a gun to kill people, they have the urge to kill and use what is available to them, if it's a gun then it's a gun, if they don't have a gun then they will use something else like the kid who killed another kid with a samurai sword in the UK. Like homemade bombs in other countries, like knives everywhere, and so on.

Now I'm not saying that the US needs to have that many guns, there's no point and having less can only help, we all agree on that. But your side needs to realize that less gun WILL NOT fix the mental issue of the country, there may be a bit less killings but there will be just as many people out of their fucking minds and this is the true issue we are facing.

this is not about the left or the right, or politics. This is about the fact that your children that have mental health issues find it so easy to get a gun because you all think you need them to fight "the man" when he tries to take over.

Fact: The UK and Australia have not had a mass shooting since 1996.
Fact: After the laws were changed, there hasn't been another since.
Fact: Since the last mass Shooting in the UK and Australia there have been at least 234 in the US.

What will it take for the US to accept that it has a HUGE problem? I mean, guns kill more US kids than cancer! How can you say guns aren't the problem? Sure someone has to pull the trigger, but if there were less guns there would be less triggers to pull. You cannot blame this on mental health. Mental health just exacerbates the problem, the problem is that guns are so prevalent that anyone can get them. You have the NRA paying politicians to NOT legislate against gun ownership, That's a problem, that's not democracy, that's plutocracy.

[Deleted]

it's better if the teachers are targets than the children, imo.

i think some teachers should be armed, and i think that there should be two or three armed officers and metal detectors at the entrance of the school. side entrances should only open from the inside of the building.

Well Hello there George Orwell...

[szechuan]

I can't believe this is a serious conversation. The answer to gun violence in schools is putting MORE guns in schools? Jesus Christ..

That's the NRA's answer to everything, and yes.

They already got to Trump, all that protest and Listening yesterday was for nothing.

WH: Trump doesn't support assault weapons ban
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...lt-weapons-ban

[Antiganon]

They're not just "not properly treated", most of them are not looking for help at all. Helping people in need would be about 12 to 15 times easier than reaching the level of gun control needed to see a difference. Because you can't just make it harder to get guns, you need to reduce the amount of guns in the country which means that people will need to be hired to go door to door and steal people's properties. That's how they will see it. How do you think a pro-gun person will react? That's right he will fucking shoot the guy who comes to take his gun. So that guy will also need to be armed and you end up in a fucking shitty situation where inevitably many people will die.
Can't have a voluntary system either, Australia did that and not even half the people owning guns choose to give up their guns. Easy to imagine it will be way less than that in a country that loves guns even more.

About all the "citation needed". You need to go read some more on the subject, I'm not pulling this shit out of my ass but I'm also not bookmarking every sources of information I come across either. The only reason you don't trust what I said and want to see citation is because you have not seen this information due to not informing yourself, not looking to see both sides of this argument.

Sure guns are more dangerous than knives like your exemple accurately says. But then what happens if guns are all banned and a school knifing occurs? The president will say "it's a tragedy but it's the price to pay to ban guns while ignoring the fact that the real problem are people, so 3 people died by knife instead of the zero who would have died if we focused on the real problem instead, great job america at least it's not 17 dead, only 3, who cares we don't have guns we are safe"

I mean at this point what do you want, just less kids dying in school or no kids dying at all? I say aim for the best, don't just settle for a little better.


Contrary to popular belief, my side is not pro 2nd amendment and hardass right wing. I'm not even American. I'm Canadian, I don't own a gun, only tried shooting once, and I don't believe people need guns to defend themselves. However I understand the concept of the 2nd amendment and why it's a big issue in the US because I purposefully go out of my way to inform myself about these issues. I used to be 100% anti-gun and mocked the US for almost "wishing to kill each other off until they're all gone" but after learning about the other side of the argument I understand that it's more complicated and all I had was a biased view because of where I come from. Just like many people here have a biased view based on their belief.

Sure the school shootings are a tragedy but if you look at the debates and shit going on, it's basically a group of people wishing that all guns would just vanish into thin air VS a group of people who see the reality that all of this is extremely complicated considering the current situation in the US.

I'm just sitting here, seeing both sides and since the thread is about gun control, I'm pulling towards the middle to help understand how it's not just as simple as making guns disappear into thin air, the same way that if there was a thread about pro-guns I would tell them that having more guns to defend against other guns is a downward spiral that doesn't work. This is not good VS evil like most leftist think, this is not even a question of money which is an easy subject to use to blame the NRA and whatever, that's just usual left and SJW insult throwing without thinking, nothing the right hasn't seen. Some of these people even think the NRA is a group of people who are actively killing or trying to kill people, they literally don't know anything about the subject and they yell really fucking loud, which entangles a lot of other uneducated people into the subject, effectively brainwashing them and creating an army of morons who just yell and cry a lot over issues they do not understand.

EDIT: The brainwashing that happens about gun control is quite similar to what happened during the election, people spewing shit all over and pulling uneducated people into their agenda pushing crusade. The very vast majority of American voters should not even vote, they never learned enough about politics, they don't care enough, they get biased by facebook posts and twitter, they can't even make an opinion for themselves. Yet they have the right to cast their basically blind vote and be a part of the problem.

So, let me give you some background.

I am a self-identified democratic socialist. I grew up in suburban/rural Connecticut, and regularly hunted small game in my teenage years. I believe that the government ought to do its best to promote the general welfare. I believe the second amendment was subverted by the NRA in the 60s, but I am broadly in favor of the individual right to bear arms. I am generally in favor of socially and fiscally liberal policies - that is, I want people to generally be left alone to make their own decisions, but I favor an economic system in which everyone pays a bit higher taxes and in exchange everyone gets a lot better services from the government.

I do not want to ban guns. I don't even want to ban the AR-15 or other semiautomatic rifles that are typically used in these shootings.

I want to close the loopholes that allow people to legally get guns without going through background checks.
I want to bridge the gap between the various agencies that report crimes so that our background check database catches everyone it possibly can.
I want to reinstate the Obama regulation for SSDI recipients that have a 3rd party manage their benefits, with the caveat that SSA refers them to be adjudicated as mentally competent (or not), rather than summarily putting them on the NICS list without due process.
I want to increase funding for mental health programs so that we can help as many of these would-be shooters as possible, BEFORE they get to the point where they commit violence.
I want to increase funding for stronger security measures at schools, particularly ones that do their jobs while being less visible to students, like metal detectors in door frames and bullet proof glass on the windows (and on the school bus windows too).

I have done extensive research on this issue. I have suffered some severe mental issues myself, including several suicide attempts. I have a broad and deep understanding of how mental illness can affect a person.

The [citation needed] stuff is just that - a citation is needed. You have no standing to make a claim like

First, the crazy kids are deeply troubled, they show several signs of that like what was shown to us, posts in social medias, showing guns, making violent comments, there are several hints of that in pretty much every cases. And in the cases where there are not much, it's only because the person kept to himself, but they are just equally troubled.

You can't possibly claim to know what is in a mentally ill person's mind when they shoot up a school. Nobody can. Hell, even the shooter might not be able to tell you. Sometimes there are signs. Sometimes there are not. Sometimes we see the signs after the fact and think "how could I have missed this?" but at the time, everything seemed perfectly normal.

Nobody seriously thinks the NRA wants to kill people. But the NRA of today is not the NRA of the 90s, or the 00s under Bush. Their primary role used to be advocating for responsible gun ownership, training, safety, and yes, protection of 2A rights. Their primary role now is in advocating against any form of gun regulation whatsoever. The NRA opposes banning bump stocks. They oppose banning silencers. They oppose banning extended magazines. They oppose waiting periods, universal background checks, mandatory safety training. They oppose the FIX NICS bill. They are operating under a pure profit motive - the more people are afraid (either that they will be shot, or that the government will take their guns), the more guns are sold.

[Swalload]

Then how, pray tell, do you propose "fixing the mental health problem".

Unless your agenda is not actually making anyone better off but deflecting from the issues caused by widespread and loosely regulated firearm ownership.



No system is going to be perfect; however, it's simple enough to have educators made aware of what warning signs to look out for and have them recommend intervention if necessary.

You know, like we already do in theory for kids suffering from abuse.

I think, and this is only my opinion, that the help should start in school and mostly at home, by teaching kids about what life really is and not make them think they live a dream in the precious American land, but they need to know that the rest of the world is basically laughing at them and things need to change. Because the lies kids are being fed in the American education system (and ven at home because the brainwashing has been around for so long that parents don't know much to help their kids either) is only met by harsh revelations when they inevitably learn the truth and that's when shit hits the fan.

Secondly, a nation should never have to choose between 2 fucking retards. Trump and Hilary are both shit, bad exemple, and this entire election should have literally been cancelled, delayed until decent people show up or something. An election should never be "pick the least bad of the 2" it should have only inspirational condidates and it should be hard to choose because they're both smart. It should be a made a law or something to never have clown elections.
I'm saying all this because it does have a very strong impact, the president is seen as a leader in nature, as someone to look up to. Obama was not perfect but at least it was possible to look up to him for some things and he look and sounded smart. Trump and Clinton do not have this aura at all, they were both terrible candidates. This makes people feel like everything is going to shit. It hurts morale, it has dire consequences and we're seeing it more and more (even in Canada with our clown PM who thinks we should say peoplekind instead of mankind).

Add to the all the negativity in the news and social media, I'm telling you man, I strongly believe we are destroying ourselves through all this shit. There's moral conflicts everywhere, virtue signalling, name calling, insults being thrown everywhere. Times were already hard for many teenagers when things were going well, I'm not surprised at all seeing where things are going.

America is not the only country with these issues, we can feel it in Canada and EU is taking a hit as well, everywhere it's getting more stupid everyday and like most issues we just hope it will solve itself... not so sure this time, we may have to face the music and take drastic measures to make a positive change for once.

[Masark]

That's the NRA's answer to everything, and yes.

A person who is saying "You need a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun" sounds like someone who wants to sell 2 guns.

[Elegiac]

I think, and this is only my opinion, that the help should start in school and mostly at home, by teaching kids about what life really is and not make them think they live a dream in the precious American land, but they need to know that the rest of the world is basically laughing at them and things need to change. Because the lies kids are being fed in the American education system (and ven at home because the brainwashing has been around for so long that parents don't know much to help their kids either) is only met by harsh revelations when they inevitably learn the truth and that's when shit hits the fan.

So your answer to mental illness is....to treat it like the kids are being lazy or delicate.

Wow, the depth of understanding of psychology by conservative continues to just utterly astound me. Why has absolutely nobody thought about this genius solution before?

Secondly, a nation should never have to choose between 2 fucking retards. Trump and Hilary are both shit, bad exemple, and this entire election should have literally been cancelled, delayed until decent people show up or something. An election should never be "pick the least bad of the 2" it should have only inspirational condidates and it should be hard to choose because they're both smart. It should be a made a law or something to never have clown elections.
I'm saying all this because it does have a very strong impact, the president is seen as a leader in nature, as someone to look up to. Obama was not perfect but at least it was possible to look up to him for some things and he look and sounded smart. Trump and Clinton do not have this aura at all, they were both terrible candidates. This makes people feel like everything is going to shit. It hurts morale, it has dire consequences and we're seeing it more and more (even in Canada with our clown PM who thinks we should say peoplekind instead of mankind).

I fail to see how this is remotely germane.

Add to the all the negativity in the news and social media, I'm telling you man, I strongly believe we are destroying ourselves through all this shit. There's moral conflicts everywhere, virtue signalling, name calling, insults being thrown everywhere. Times were already hard for many teenagers when things were going well, I'm not surprised at all seeing where things are going.

America is not the only country with these issues, we can feel it in Canada and EU is taking a hit as well, everywhere it's getting more stupid everyday and like most issues we just hope it will solve itself... not so sure this time, we may have to face the music and take drastic measures to make a positive change for once.

No actual solutions but a bunch of moralistic 'society is crumbling' horse shit.

I really don't know what I expected.

[Deleted]

Of course it´s the best solution...

Lets see mmmm every teacher with a gun ,,, thats a profit of millions of $...

Then of course we can give them a weapon without teaching them first the basics...

Lets see again mmm every teacher going to practice shooting mmmm thats again a profit of millions of $...

Lets add they need to do the training again every 3 years as "refreshment"... again millions of $...



Of course arming teachers is the answer, generates lots of $$$ without ending the real root of the problems...

[Nalera]

I'm fine with banning semi-automatic weapons but first you have to make a compelling argument that semi-automatic weapons are more deadly than handguns which is just not true. The most deadly school shooting in the US was at Virginia Tech, the perpetrator used 2 handguns and killed 32 people. So if we ban semi-automatic weapons there is no proof schools would be any safer. This is of course assuming that criminals would actually respect the law, which seems completely nonsensical and the problem with most of the on-the-book remedies for gun control. I have no doubt that if Nicholas Cruz had a handgun instead of an AR-15 he could have killed similar numbers. If your argument is that we should ban all guns everywhere, I personally would not want to live in a world like that. I mean who wants to go back to a world where the strongest and quickest are at the top of the food chain? Unfortunately there are no easy answers to gun violence, if you want schools to be safer, trained responsible adults on the premise of a school would definitely make students safer.