Time travel Orcs are a Tumor on the setting

[DesoPL]

Because none of WC1-2 MATTERS anymore. Outland is essentially ignored. The lore characters from the past and the impact they had on the modern horde might as well not exist because their legacy and anything we COULD have learned about them has been shit on by this fake AU lore.

Even Ignoring how badly Kargath got treated in the MU, going from a character with towns and bays named after him, to being revealed to have been on the shadow council all along, it's worse now that we learn he WAS some gritty gladiator but this more recent version of him that died pathetically in highmaul is all that'll really be remembered.

The orcs had to murder their old characters and they've been reduced to hostile omnicidal idiots who could be talked into some grand orc crusade by GARROSH of all people.

Can we just all agree that now is time to kill Thrall? Please?

[Skytotem]

and iam sure the draenai shamans can repair Argus??!

Did you not see that half eaten apple of a planet that was Argus? Iam sure Outlands looks much worse than that now!

Did you not see Netherstorm?

Mac'Aree and Krokuun might be able to be repaired yeah.


Argus was bathed in fel energy for 25k years. That's longer than Outland has existed (longer than the night elf empire has existed, longer than humans irl have existed, etc) and it STILL has healthy areas.

Netherstorm was only that bad because of the Mana-forges, and we stopped those, it used to be "fields of Farahlon" as recent as Kael's elves setting up there before they turned on the forges. Learn your lore.

[Biotec]

Considering 95% of the draenei living on Draenor are dead in our timeline it's pretty moot. I think Velen was the only prominent one who was alive and not evil in both.

The orcs and draenei, from our universe, don't want to settle there because one, it's not their world, and two, besides faction rivalries it's still a helluva lot more dangerous than Azeroth.

We can't link to any other timelines because the hourglass was broken trying to link just to one.

In your opinion.

Grommash is just as real as the one we were familiar with before.

In your opinion.

PS: I think WoD's biggest failing was the community. As soon as people hear alternate universe a part of their brain shuts down and they refuse to look at the situation logically or even more emotionally. OP, you put it very well "Fake-Draenor" "Cheapens" "REAL Grom". You didn't even try to get to know this world or these characters to even begin to make an emotional connection to them.

Akama is still alive in both.

Technically there are 4 of him since there's that weird ghost-reflection thing of him on Argus and the shadow version of him.

[Deleted]

WoW is just a silly game. It's always been, escpecially since Cataclysm.

[Skytotem]

Right, I must admit I sometimes lose track of the many things that are posted on the news site...but where does it way we get time-travel AU orcs as an allied race? I now see Mag'har flirts on the news page...and Mag'har are from outland, right?

Is there a whole story to this datamined or what did I miss?

They're calling the AU orcs "Mag'har" for some reason, it's stupid.

All their orcs are about time travel, reference "Warchief" Hellscream, and mispronouncing Draenor and then saying "Ugh I'll just say I'm from Outland"

[cparle87]

Well Outland was breaking apart the last time we was there https://wow.gamepedia.com/Outland

Plus how many Brown orcs did you know back in MOP who could fill his Kor'kron? That village wasnt that fucking big its the reason the Horde didnt know there was any uncorrupted orcs left in Outland when they first got there!

Or the fact that their main village was on the opposite side of the world from where we arrived and their only presence in Hellfire was well hidden atop cliffs far away from the enemies we were attacking? I'm not arguing that the Mag'har don't have a very high population but that wasn't the only reason we didn't know they were there at first.

[yetgdhfgh]

Or the fact that their main village was on the opposite side of the world from where we arrived and their only presence in Hellfire was well hidden atop cliffs far away from the enemies we were attacking? I'm not arguing that the Mag'har don't have a very high population but that wasn't the only reason we didn't know they were there at first.

Did you not play the Siege of Orgimmar? Did you not kill a whole city full of Brown Orcs in that raid?

[cparle87]

Because none of WC1-2 MATTERS anymore. Outland is essentially ignored. The lore characters from the past and the impact they had on the modern horde might as well not exist because their legacy and anything we COULD have learned about them has been shit on by this fake AU lore.

Even Ignoring how badly Kargath got treated in the MU, going from a character with towns and bays named after him, to being revealed to have been on the shadow council all along, it's worse now that we learn he WAS some gritty gladiator but this more recent version of him that died pathetically in highmaul is all that'll really be remembered.

The orcs had to murder their old characters and they've been reduced to hostile omnicidal idiots who could be talked into some grand orc crusade by GARROSH of all people.

The lore and history of the MU characters hasn't changed because of what happened in WoD. Though they did have some differences you have to remember that WC1-3 didn't happen to these people. All the events that shaped and changed them into the heroes we knew in the later games, hasn't happened. Remembering the MU characters fondly is not mutually exclusive to understanding where things veered off as we watched them become very different people under different circumstances.

If I remember the timeline properly he got all of those things named after him before any of us knew he was alive, and it was a nasty, nasty shock to Nazgrel to find out he'd become a fel orc. After you kill him Nazgrel tells you to "remember the orc he was, not the beast he became." Is your problem with AU Kargath that he died as a raid boss? Does that mean that Illidan, Arthas, Lei Shen, and all the other badasses of the world "died pathetically"?

I think calling them omnicidal idiots is drastically oversimplifying the situation. You have Gul'dan going around spreading fel, causing the spirits to withdraw from the shaman, causing droughts, massive forest fires, and other disasters. In this time of crisis the shaman can't help you and Gul'dan is out preaching his new way. Then you get told that the superadvanced aliens that royal kicked the asses, without hardly trying really, of the ogres your people could barely defeat the last time are planning to wipe you out. I can't blame the chieftains for taking Gul'dan's deal and drinking the blood.

Then you have Garrosh coming in, claiming to be some great prophet with visions of the future. The shaman all gather and question him, and through his thoughts you see your people demonically enslaved, turned into little more than animals, then defeated and enslaved. Also don't forget that Garrosh cut off the vision before it got to Thrall and the liberation of your people. Then Garrosh tells you that there's an entire world out there that wants to do exactly what his vision showed to your people. And he can back it up with proof in the forms of the iron star and other weapons.

So saying the orcs were fools in either time for being done in is not giving them any credit at all.

[Skytotem]

I think calling them omnicidal idiots is drastically oversimplifying the situation. You have Gul'dan going around spreading fel, causing the spirits to withdraw from the shaman, causing droughts, massive forest fires, and other disasters. In this time of crisis the shaman can't help you and Gul'dan is out preaching his new way. Then you get told that the superadvanced aliens that royal kicked the asses, without hardly trying really, of the ogres your people could barely defeat the last time are planning to wipe you out. I can't blame the chieftains for taking Gul'dan's deal and drinking the blood.

Then you have Garrosh coming in, claiming to be some great prophet with visions of the future. The shaman all gather and question him, and through his thoughts you see your people demonically enslaved, turned into little more than animals, then defeated and enslaved. Also don't forget that Garrosh cut off the vision before it got to Thrall and the liberation of your people. Then Garrosh tells you that there's an entire world out there that wants to do exactly what his vision showed to your people. And he can back it up with proof in the forms of the iron star and other weapons.

So saying the orcs were fools in either time for being done in is not giving them any credit at all.

Shame Blizz couldn't show any of that in WoD

All WoD did was make the answer to the question of whether the orcs are genocidal butchers without demonblood a resounding "yes" it was the single worst thing to happen to the orc and horde narrative as a whole in the history of the franchise.

Garrosh's one vision where he smothered the dude who caught him out does not excsue the kind of shit we saw in WoD with the Iron horde.

Blackhand wanting to burn the world? Orgrim dying like a punk after two quest chains? Kilrogg chugging demon blood for no apparent reason?

WoD gave us good window dressing for the clans but it did an atrocious job of handling the characters and it never had the MU orcs react, or address any of it.

It's all just... THERE, tossed at us and it sours REAL Grom's sacrifice, it destroys the story arc and the impact that the characters from the MU built up to.

Instead of having this amazing story arc for the Horde where they go from a demon-tainted army to redeeming themselves Blizz just... tosses in new orcs that got duped by Garrosh and then go "Oh, our bad, let's go murder your enemies, who gives a crap about what's going on in our world" and then our guys just... shrug and go with it?

[cparle87]

Akama is still alive in both.

Technically there are 4 of him since there's that weird ghost-reflection thing of him on Argus and the shadow version of him.

Well played, forgot about him. Well, the Shade is simply a part of MU Akama's soul so I'm not sure that counts. Also we've seen ghost-reflections of Kil'jaeden, Velen, and many other characters. They're just... I dunno, memories. They're not real spirits or souls or anything. So there's 2 Akamas.

- - - Updated - - -

Shame Blizz couldn't show any of that in WoD

All WoD did was make the answer to the question of whether the orcs are genocidal butchers without demonblood a resounding "yes" it was the single worst thing to happen to the orc and horde narrative as a whole in the history of the franchise.

Garrosh's one vision where he smothered the dude who caught him out does not excsue the kind of shit we saw in WoD with the Iron horde.

Blackhand wanting to burn the world? Orgrim dying like a punk after two quest chains? Kilrogg chugging demon blood for no apparent reason?

WoD gave us good window dressing for the clans but it did an atrocious job of handling the characters and it never had the MU orcs react, or address any of it.

It's all just... THERE, tossed at us and it sours REAL Grom's sacrifice, it destroys the story arc and the impact that the characters from the MU built up to.

Instead of having this amazing story arc for the Horde where they go from a demon-tainted army to redeeming themselves Blizz just... tosses in new orcs that got duped by Garrosh and then go "Oh, our bad, let's go murder your enemies, who gives a crap about what's going on in our world" and then our guys just... shrug and go with it?

You mean genocidal butchers with a failing dying world, a madman spreading a religion of demon worship, and being told an enemy they have no chance to beat once they're prepared so the only chance to survive is strike now?

Where did it say Blackhand wanted to burn the world? He was the one who bought Garrosh's story the most, and I gotta admit he loved all the weapons since crafting had always been his clan's shtick. I think Orgrim was pretty well played, a mirrored reversal of what happened in our world. In both Orgrim saw what Blackhand was doing was wrong, but in AU he picked a fight directly and failed.

How would you want the MU orcs to react? We only ever saw Thrall really interacting with them, and he spent most of his time trying to keep who he was secret.

Do you really need everything spoonfed to you? "It's just THERE" is your argument? Also for the love of god stop comparing the two. All you're doing is spoiling your own enjoyment. "This guy did this in MU so it sucks he didn't do it in AU" "This guy was like this is AU but it wasn't well shown in MU". Didn't they flat out say to not try to count the blades of grass.

Also, do we really have to cover the whole "REAL" Grom thing again?

You don't think Grommash at least partially redeemed himself? How many people can claim to have fought toe to toe with Archimonde and survived. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make with "who gives a crap about what's going on in our world".

[Deleted]

WC 1 - 2 do still matter. MU and AU Characters aren't exactly the same, just because they the same name. So i'm not sure how AU Gul'Dan diminished MU Gul'Dan in any way. They're two different persons.

And Wrathion and Kairoz only searched for a timeline where Garrosh could fit in well, where Grom existed but had no wife and son etc etc. AU Blackhand was for example a way different and more powerful Orc compared to MU Blackhand.

Blizzard can easily avoid Doppelgänger if they just don't include them into AU Draenor and say, they don't exist in that timeline. No problem whatso fucking ever. I'm not even sure the Saurfang family even exists on AU Draenor. I certainly didn't met two more or less awesome Orc warriors who cleaved my unbeatable player character constantly in half, called Varok and Broxigar.

People just have an overblown hate boner for WoD and ride that boner to oblivion, not even giving Blizzard the chance to hopefully use all / some of these wasted assets from WoD in a more thoughtful, non-rushed manner for something better. Which actually tells me everything i need to know.

With god damn Gorian Ogre and High Arakoa WoD has definitely even more potential for the story, if only done right. The High Arakoa already got a connection with MU Azeroth through Aviana's invitation, to connect them to the mothertree G'hanir in the Emerald Dream. These were small details in WoD, but they have good potential.

[tristannarutofan]

Right, yeah..there are several odd flirts and jokes in there. Strange. So that leaves the chance that the intro-storyline for them makes some sense of this

jokes arent lore.

they call themselves Mag'har because...they are. Its not a tribe. its not a group. it literally means 'uncorrupted". it would be like saying that both british and american people cant call themselves 'sunburnt"

and that JOKE (you know, a joke? comedy? not serious?) plays to the common real life situation of people not being able to pronounce your home country, your non-white name or other things in your language so you just decide to say your 'latina" because everytime you say where you are really from ppl forget it, say "where the hell is that" or question if you are lying'

[derpkitteh]

i hope AU durotan and draka's child is female.

female thrall.

[tristannarutofan]

reglardless yall need to stop acting like stories need to erase their own canon to accomodate other canon.

outland and draenor both exist. both have magical access to azeroth. both are as significant as northrend or pandaria.

the only difference is that while you take a boat or a griffon to get to northrend, you have to take a portal to Outland, and a Portal with a shifted wavelength to get to draenor.

the warcraft universe has been doing with time shenanigans since the creation of the bronze dragon flight.

its high fantasy. its a normal part of the genre, just look at star trek. Its pretty common and extremely accessible for your cast to deal with alternate universes and time travel. its ExTREMELY common in fantasy


Not only is it canon but its not difficult to understand

[derpkitteh]

They're calling the AU orcs "Mag'har" for some reason, it's stupid.

All their orcs are about time travel, reference "Warchief" Hellscream, and mispronouncing Draenor and then saying "Ugh I'll just say I'm from Outland"

mag'har just means uncorrupt in orcish.

[Blamblam41]

I've been saying it for years.

WoW's lore jumped the shark in Cataclysm with Jesus Thrall. Everything since then has just been back to back proof they can't do original characters anymore, because even when they do they get shunted into something like dying in the Nightborne quest chain or randomly showing up on Argus for 0 fucking reason.

Anyone who honestly plays this game for plot, story, characters, theme, setting... You're not getting your money's worth by any regard. This is 5 cent Sunday comic tier of writing, the kind of shit they don't even run in the cities and they save for the backwoods cousin fucker towns.

[Alex86el]

couldnt agree more.

[Trassk]

Yes because time travel is so out of character in a fantasy setting, with crystal space ships, god like stone entities that created everything, sentient masters of elemental forces, talking dragons, mortal races that live for thousands of years, entities that embody light and darkness, portals that can open across dimentions, oh but CHARACTERS FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE ARE SO OUT OF CHARACTER FOR THE GAME!

[Skytotem]

You mean genocidal butchers with a failing dying world, a madman spreading a religion of demon worship, and being told an enemy they have no chance to beat once they're prepared so the only chance to survive is strike now?

Where did it say Blackhand wanted to burn the world? He was the one who bought Garrosh's story the most, and I gotta admit he loved all the weapons since crafting had always been his clan's shtick.

I think Orgrim was pretty well played, a mirrored reversal of what happened in our world. In both Orgrim saw what Blackhand was doing was wrong, but in AU he picked a fight directly and failed.

How would you want the MU orcs to react? We only ever saw Thrall really interacting with them, and he spent most of his time trying to keep who he was secret.

Do you really need everything spoonfed to you? "It's just THERE" is your argument? Also for the love of god stop comparing the two. All you're doing is spoiling your own enjoyment. "This guy did this in MU so it sucks he didn't do it in AU" "This guy was like this is AU but it wasn't well shown in MU". Didn't they flat out say to not try to count the blades of grass.

Also, do we really have to cover the whole "REAL" Grom thing again?

You don't think Grommash at least partially redeemed himself? How many people can claim to have fought toe to toe with Archimonde and survived. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make with "who gives a crap about what's going on in our world".

1. There's no sign that the world was failing or dying in WoD, don't make shit up. And falling for Garrosh's lies isn't an excuse it's a mark against them.

2. In the fight we had with him in Talador where he killed Orgrim and Maraad. Near as I can tell we NEVER had any interaction between Garrosh and Blackhand, don't just make things up to suit your version of events.

Orgrim got a quest where he was 100% onboard with the Iron Horde and then in the next quest rebelled against Blackhand and died, he was handled TERRIBLY.


3. I would appreciate literally any reaction at all, since as you pointed out only Thrall ever addressed the absurdity of the situation.

4. The "Blades of Grass" thing is bullshit, I'm not asking for things to be spoonfed I'm asking for a story that's halfway decent. Not this "Oh here's all these guys you like but it's NOT them but it is don't think about it too much!"

5. I don't think Fake Grommash redeemed himself in the least, he did nothing to undo the damage he did, he only saved his own skin. "Draenor is free" my ass, he was the one trying to conquer and enslave it for selfish reasons.

[Deleted]

Yeah I really don't want them to be from the AU. Just scrap that idea and say they're Mag'har Orcs from Outland, please.