Wonder Woman and Black Panther's Success Has Theaters Asking for More Diversity

[Endus]

Sure it is, what was has happened, grow up and deal with it, you can't change the past, only do new things in the future. You can't change Shakespeare, just like you can't change the fact that Einstein and Van Gogh were geniuses and pioneers in their fields and also happened to be white. All you can do is learn from the influence they left on this world, just like you can't change the fact that characters that we're written by writers 40 or 50 years ago should still be the same as they were then. You can't make the fact that Stan Lee wrote predominantly white male characters into black, Asian or LGBT characters on a whim. Don't like it? Write your own new characters, don't change shit that has likely been around since before your parents were even thought of because that does nothing but piss off people who have been fans of those characters for decades upon decades.

Ironically, Shakespeare doesn't need much changing. He has a pretty comprehensive suite of strong female characters, often stronger than the men in their plays, and he even has a major play whose title character was an ethnic minority (Othello). There's also a fair bit of LGBT innuendo that isn't really subtle at all.

Plus, if you're doing a modernized adaptation, for many of his characters, their gender or ethnicity really don't matter. It isn't integral to the story at all, and while the setting in his era may have justified certain tendencies, setting the play in another era negates that.

[Lumineus]

I'll tell you what the problem with Holdo is.

Holdo: I don't have to explain anything to you, you just got all our bombers shot down so STFU!
Poe: You just got ninety-five percent of the Rebellion shot down! KYS moron!
Holdo: *complies*

And yet, no one calls Admiral Tumblr on this in the actual context of the film.

[Elegiac]

Plus, if you're doing a modernized adaptation, for many of his characters, their gender or ethnicity really don't matter. It isn't integral to the story at all, and while the setting in his era may have justified certain tendencies, setting the play in another era negates that.

Case in point: Baz Luhrmann's Romeo + Juliet.

[gioderpington]

Not white. But thank you for being blind to your own logic.

Breaking news! White man claims to not be white! Is he hiding under a veil of anonymity or is there something truly shocking to be held? More at 11!!

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Cool. We're now living in a multicultural and diverse society in which the art of literary criticism has become a formalised field of study and many of the problematic elements of older literature are now being recognised and addressed.

I love how "multicultural" has been mutated into meaning "anything not featuring white dudes."

Let's have a look at some of the last few blockbuster superhero movies and see which ones are most multicultural (using the actual meaning for the word): One features an Australian playing a Norse-based character. One features an Israelite playing a Greek-based character. One is featuring an American playing a made-up African character.

Weird, they all sound just about as multicultural as you can get. Even more amusingly, the one people like you would consider the most "multicultural" isn't seeing as how most of the headliners are Americans. As opposed to, say, the first example above which features two Australians, two Americans, and a Brit in the lead roles (and was directed by a New Zealander no less).

But hey, dey's all white, so not multicultural at all! But da udda one's almost all black, so SUPER MULTICUTURAL FOR REALZ!!!!!

[Endus]

I'll tell you what the problem with Holdo is.

Holdo: I don't have to explain anything to you, you just got all our bombers shot down so STFU!
Poe: You just got ninety-five percent of the Rebellion shot down! KYS moron!
Holdo: *complies*

And yet, no one calls Admiral Tumblr on this in the actual context of the film.

Because it's not true. When she took command from Leia, they were down to three cruiser-class ships. They didn't have the fuel to get them all away, so she sacrificed two of them to move fuel, materiel, and people to the main cruiser. Then, her plan was to bail on that cruiser, sneak off in the transports, and get away scot free.

The only reason there were any casualties on Holdo's watch is because Poe and friends leaked intel to the First Order.

[Elegiac]

I love how "multicultural" has been mutated into meaning "anything not featuring white dudes."

It hasn't, especially since I was talking about our society rather than whether an artwork is 'multicultural'.

Let's have a look at some of the last few blockbuster superhero movies and see which ones are most multicultural (using the actual meaning for the word): One features an Australian playing a Norse-based character. One features an Israelite playing a Greek-based character. One is featuring an American playing a made-up African character.

Weird, they all sound just about as multicultural as you can get. Even more amusingly, the one people like you would consider the most "multicultural" isn't seeing as how most of the headliners are Americans. As opposed to, say, the first example above which features two Australians, two Americans, and a Brit in the lead roles (and was directed by a New Zealander no less).

But hey, dey's all white, so not multicultural at all! But da udda one's almost all black, so SUPER MULTICUTURAL FOR REALZ!!!!!

I mean, Black Panther really is highly multicultural as Wakanda takes its aesthetic inspirations from all over the African continent. But that's not really the subject of discussion.

[Deleted]

black panther was an other propaganda against muslims potraiting them as invaders to the public , the black actors was there to make the film look "progressive" to low intelligent people

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Gender, race or sexual orientation should never matter in creating a good story.

I do agree with your point. It shouldn’t, but since all your heroes are almost always the same stereotype, it does end up impacting the story. Diversity is key in this particular case.

[petej0]

Why is everyone head over heals about Wonder Woman and Black Panther when Jessica Jones and Luke Cage were much better written characters.

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Breaking news! White man claims to not be white! Is he hiding under a veil of anonymity or is there something truly shocking to be held? More at 11!!

Yeah, cuz a none white guy can have differing opinions to the status quo. Who the hell are you to say anyways? Maybe he is a white guy who identifies as black. You gonna take away his self identity now?

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Which is precisely why people are calling for newer creations to be more diverse and inclusive.

When you have more African Americans writing for more African American roles and characters then you will see a natural shift. Otherwise if you have white people writing black characters that will get criticized for black appropriation, because "wtf does a white guy know about the struggles of black people yadda yadda.."

[Endus]

I do agree with your point. It shouldn’t, but since all your heroes are almost always the same stereotype, it does end up impacting the story. Diversity is key in this particular case.

To put it another way, if a particular character is a straight white dude, that's not a big deal. If almost ALL your characters are straight white dudes, and you're not doing a story where that lack of diversity is part of the setting for some particular conscious reason, then that's potentially an issue.

In a lot of cases, these factors don't even affect the story, so you could either open casting to "literally anyone", or (if you're writing a novel and not casting a film), literally rolling dice and assigning these things randomly. Roll a d10 on character creation, if you roll a 1, the character's LGBT, unless you have a particular reason to make their orientation something in particular.

Hell, this can open up some great twists in writing. Maybe you've got a straight white protagonist, and you're "rolling up" their love interest, who turns out to be the gender the protagonist is attracted to, but gay. That's an interesting dynamic; unrequited love that he knows won't be returned, and how the two deal with it. Or it ISN'T the gender that the protagonist is usually attracted to. Maybe he's not as straight as he thought? Maybe the love interest in your 19th century Civil War drama is a black girl, for your Confederate soldier protagonist. Whenever you get something that makes you go "that'll never work", you've identified conflict, and that's what tells stories.

[Dreknar20]

It shouldn’t, but since all your heroes are almost always the same stereotype, it does end up impacting the story.

black panther hardly breaks any stereotypes. Its pretty similar to the Iron Man origin story

Its just a different setting

[Rennadrel]

I do agree with your point. It shouldn’t, but since all your heroes are almost always the same stereotype, it does end up impacting the story. Diversity is key in this particular case.

That's because a lot of stereotypical white characters ARE badly written. And I'd say that between Marvel and DC comics, there are more poorly written characters than there are good characters by a long shot. I mean, just look at all the prototypical boring, generic bad guys in Spiderman. Not only were those movies painful because of bad acting, but they are bad because the characters are terribly written and have such garbage back stories. There is a lot of that in comic books, that's why I don't take that stuff seriously. If I want good writing with both strong male and female characters, I'll go read a fantasy series.

Speaking of, I always found it amusing how great a great fantasy writer like Robert Jordan managed to turn most of his female characters into bitchy and often petulant children with the way many acted. His only saving grace in the entire WoT series was Moiraine, most of the primary female characters could have been so much better, instead he made them all cliche. Then I look at his protege, Brandon Sanderson, who manages to craft epic world's and still drive great character development in his stories, whether they be male or female protagonists.

[ryanmahaffe]

Well, as I said, they break away from the pattern of a white man being the hero, something that happens 95% of the time. People get tired of it so I suppose the fact that a woman was the heroine and a black man the hero got people hyped.

Imagine if you ate the same food every day of the month except the last day. I'm pretty sure you'd look forward to that last day exactly because it was something different to eat, but just as good quality wise, if not better.

That is a terrible analogy lol. Food is something you taste, it is the same thing being put in your mouth over and over again. The color or genitals of an actor/actress shouldn't matter.

[Elegiac]

And yet Ghost Busters flopped hard....if you want more diversity in theaters....pony up the money and make a movie the way you want it

A) Because Ghostbusters was a poorly executed movie that didn't really bring anything novel to the franchise.

B) "Just make your own movie" is difficult because of the mechanics of the film industry in the US.

C) Y'all will bitch about 'your own movie' anyway.

[Ret4resto]

I still haven't seen either movie. I'm gonna try to see black panther this weekend though, I've been so busy with school haven't had the time.

[Ragedaug]

When you have more African Americans writing for more African American roles and characters then you will see a natural shift. Otherwise if you have white people writing black characters that will get criticized for black appropriation, because "wtf does a white guy know about the struggles of black people yadda yadda.."

I would guess this is the downfall of most of the forced diversity in art. You either have white people writing ethnic characters where they have no experience, or you have various ethnic writers pushed to write about a story they couldn't care less about because they can at least identify with the characters.

Let good writers write about what they know, and you have the best chance to get good stories.

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To put it another way, if a particular character is a straight white dude, that's not a big deal. If almost ALL your characters are straight white dudes, and you're not doing a story where that lack of diversity is part of the setting for some particular conscious reason, then that's potentially an issue.

In a lot of cases, these factors don't even affect the story, so you could either open casting to "literally anyone", or (if you're writing a novel and not casting a film), literally rolling dice and assigning these things randomly. Roll a d10 on character creation, if you roll a 1, the character's LGBT, unless you have a particular reason to make their orientation something in particular.

Hell, this can open up some great twists in writing. Maybe you've got a straight white protagonist, and you're "rolling up" their love interest, who turns out to be the gender the protagonist is attracted to, but gay. That's an interesting dynamic; unrequited love that he knows won't be returned, and how the two deal with it. Or it ISN'T the gender that the protagonist is usually attracted to. Maybe he's not as straight as he thought? Maybe the love interest in your 19th century Civil War drama is a black girl, for your Confederate soldier protagonist. Whenever you get something that makes you go "that'll never work", you've identified conflict, and that's what tells stories.

Some of my favorite stories contain 100% Asians, or 100% Middle-Eastern, or 100% African characters. If they forced Europeans into ANY of those stories, it would have made the story complete crap. I am completely baffled why you would think you can't or should never have a movie with a single ethnicity or gender. Sometimes, that's what the story is about, and they story wouldn't work otherwise.

[Endus]

Some of my favorite stories contain 100% Asians, or 100% Middle-Eastern, or 100% African characters. If they forced Europeans into ANY of those stories, it would have made the story complete crap. I am completely baffled why you would think you can't or should never have a movie with a single ethnicity or gender. Sometimes, that's what the story is about, and they story wouldn't work otherwise.

Try reading my post again, because your anger is arguing against something I never even said. Something I specifically allowed for.

[Ragedaug]

Try reading my post again, because your anger is arguing against something I never even said. Something I specifically allowed for.

You always think I'm angry. But I never type in caps. Are you projecting? I don't think you are angry, but should I? I always assume you are calmly responding to me. Try reading my comments with a soothing calm voice, and you may take it differently. I dunno. I think it will help. Don't assume I'm angry just because I disagree with you. It may help our conversations to go better. It's worth a try, no?


- and you are right, you were providing an exception. So I did knee jerk to the "we have to have black aristocrats in a middle-age era movie set in Europe" trope, but I can see you weren't actually saying that.

[Elegiac]

Try reading my post again, because your anger is arguing against something I never even said. Something I specifically allowed for.

Why does there need to be an allowance, necessarily; period pieces are never historically accurate and take creative liberties in terms of plot, why wouldn't it be justifiable?