Demo Changes!

[Azelas]

I'll be honest I dont think sould shards are a problem. In demo in BfA they feel super in control in generation, and that's all I need tbh. As long as I can build and spend reliably they can be whatever they want.

[Werst]

So far the changes are healthy departure from where we started. We are "dot-less" compared to every warlock iteration in history for the most part except our pets are our dots now. Apart from Feltardo all of them are still just single target, non moving, non controllable, dots. The implementation of those dots is improving but that base AI "derpyness" is something that has to be accounted for beyond spreadsheet balance. We all know the commander is bigtime WiP but just in general with how dynamic hard swaps and kill orders in mythic+ tend to be we will either sit on our more cooldown based toolkit or risk being caught without a response OR it just could be the toolkit is very incomplete so far.

I tend to think the latter. For instance AoE shard generation or AoE period feels like its just not been covered yet. I still feel like we are addicted to haste TOO much. I get we can't shake it entirely but before we go too far in alpha perhaps that should be looked at? Shards are fine vs D.Fury...we will be able to swap specs far more in BfA, so a consistent resource between specs isn't awful, especially for people who aren't PhD warlocks. You don't need granular resources to have fun, just good mechanics.

I'd almost like to see something like Inner Demons be baseline for demo and more how we generate resources. Shadowbolt being shared with affliction and so underwhelming in terms of DPET/interaction seems lazy, especially when AoE hasn't even been covered beyond burst cooldowns. That said, Inner Demons isn't an awful direction...borrowed from D3 necromancer skelly talent kind of, just like to see it fleshed out more.

As for stats...could do something where gear haste has a lesser value for pet haste and mastery buffs pets damage AND haste while crit is just crit for the caster but buffs pet duration (like aff's 2pcT21 on UA) so its a bit more interesting. RNG doesn't get too out of line but no one stat should eclipse the others. Too much haste we get resources but weaker pets, too much mastery fewer but brutal pets, crit = longer lasting pets (remember they stick to whatever you cast them on) but still a solid gain where you have it, and vers always pulls up last for us if our specs are built properly.

Hope they keep imp swarm in, or at least bring it back for pvp talent at bare minimum. Is Implosion 1 shard per target hit or one shard period? If its sustainable we have our AoE toolkit far more complete...can anyone clarify? Either way, here is hoping they ditch shadowbolt for Demonwrath as our builder (or maybe a "demonbolt" scaling shadowbolt that has a splash/cleave to it?)

[Deleted]

So far the changes are healthy departure from where we started. We are "dot-less" compared to every warlock iteration in history for the most part except our pets are our dots now. Apart from Feltardo all of them are still just single target, non moving, non controllable, dots. The implementation of those dots is improving but that base AI "derpyness" is something that has to be accounted for beyond spreadsheet balance. We all know the commander is bigtime WiP but just in general with how dynamic hard swaps and kill orders in mythic+ tend to be we will either sit on our more cooldown based toolkit or risk being caught without a response OR it just could be the toolkit is very incomplete so far.

I tend to think the latter. For instance AoE shard generation or AoE period feels like its just not been covered yet. I still feel like we are addicted to haste TOO much. I get we can't shake it entirely but before we go too far in alpha perhaps that should be looked at? Shards are fine vs D.Fury...we will be able to swap specs far more in BfA, so a consistent resource between specs isn't awful, especially for people who aren't PhD warlocks. You don't need granular resources to have fun, just good mechanics.

I'd almost like to see something like Inner Demons be baseline for demo and more how we generate resources. Shadowbolt being shared with affliction and so underwhelming in terms of DPET/interaction seems lazy, especially when AoE hasn't even been covered beyond burst cooldowns. That said, Inner Demons isn't an awful direction...borrowed from D3 necromancer skelly talent kind of, just like to see it fleshed out more.

As for stats...could do something where gear haste has a lesser value for pet haste and mastery buffs pets damage AND haste while crit is just crit for the caster but buffs pet duration (like aff's 2pcT21 on UA) so its a bit more interesting. RNG doesn't get too out of line but no one stat should eclipse the others. Too much haste we get resources but weaker pets, too much mastery fewer but brutal pets, crit = longer lasting pets (remember they stick to whatever you cast them on) but still a solid gain where you have it, and vers always pulls up last for us if our specs are built properly.

Hope they keep imp swarm in, or at least bring it back for pvp talent at bare minimum. Is Implosion 1 shard per target hit or one shard period? If its sustainable we have our AoE toolkit far more complete...can anyone clarify? Either way, here is hoping they ditch shadowbolt for Demonwrath as our builder (or maybe a "demonbolt" scaling shadowbolt that has a splash/cleave to it?)

The AI is an issue, but when a target dies all pets do target something new, unlike Affliction that loses all remaining DoT damage.

Inner Demons is how MoP/WoD imps worked, they spawned after any spell with a 18sec cooldown and didn't spawn from HoG.

[Deleted]

I wish they would just make Implosion into a passive ability that made your imps jump into the mobs and explode, when their timer is up. Would make for a nice passive aoe, and not have to sacrifice one of our main dps sources.

[Deleted]

I wish they would just make Implosion into a passive ability that made your imps jump into the mobs and explode, when their timer is up. Would make for a nice passive aoe, and not have to sacrifice one of our main dps sources.

We lose quite a lot of Imp dmg when we use implosion currently, however that's partially because we opt out of 2 other talent options. Besides we have no idea how much of a dps is coming from the Imps in BFA. I doubt imps will be our "main source of dps".

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Is Implosion 1 shard per target hit or one shard period? If its sustainable we have our AoE toolkit far more complete...can anyone clarify?

According to the lock discord it's per imp last I saw.

[Shandalar]

Imps dying by Implosion can proc Molten Core?

[Duckz0rs]

Imps dying by Implosion can proc Molten Core?

Not currently, no, as they don't expend their energy when casting Implosion. Expending energy seems to proc the chance to get MC procs

[Shandalar]

Makes sense, probably it would be totally OP

[Pensylvestor]

I kind of liked the really early iteration of implosion in the legion beta where it was going to be a baseline artifact ability. It became part of the single target rotation where you would basically implosion at the end of your imps' lifecycle and try not to waste imps. But not casting it and just letting them expire was a dps loss, basically making imps another resource.

It's kind of a cool mechanic in my opinion, but quickly becomes unrealistic when you get any amount of haste and can have more than one set of imps out at a time, then you're left with the decision to either cast more imps, or implode early. The more haste you get, the earlier you would have to implode, thus creating more problems, giving you that feeling that you're missing out on dps somewhere.

[Kirroth]

According to the lock discord it's per imp last I saw.

That's what I expected. Throw 4 imps, get back 2 SS on average. So HoG, Implosion, Shadow Bolt x2, HoG, Implosion, repeat (more or less). Could be worse.

[Azelas]

That's what I expected. Throw 4 imps, get back 2 SS on average. So HoG, Implosion, Shadow Bolt x2, HoG, Implosion, repeat (more or less). Could be worse.

along with bilescourge bombers, felstorm and the Commander for some bursty aoe (if he keeps the shadowbolt volley), Demo aoe should be fine tbh.

[Oldmind]

Destro cycle: Immolate + Incinerate + RoF
Aff cycle: Agony + SoC
New Demo cycle: HoG + Implosion + SB

Demo aoe seems to be more hardcasting, with no resource generation while moving, and with harder punishment for mistakes. I don't like the trend.

[Ooshraxa]

Demo aoe seems to be more hardcasting, with no resource generation while moving, and with harder punishment for mistakes. I don't like the trend.

Demo: Turreting since 2016!

[Deleted]

Destro cycle: Immolate + Incinerate + RoF
Aff cycle: Agony + SoC
New Demo cycle: HoG + Implosion + SB

Demo aoe seems to be more hardcasting, with no resource generation while moving, and with harder punishment for mistakes. I don't like the trend.

you're forgetting raging imps which makes your soulfire instant cast, so there's your resource generation while moving(especially if you also take power siphon), in fact you could talent yourself so that the only spell you have to hard cast is HoG for both ST and aoe so you could argue that demo is the most mobile of all our specs when it comes to both ST and aoe, provided ofc you spec for it, demo is significantly less turret'y than they used to be but as i said, you have to take the right talents for it.

[Baconeggcheese]

you're forgetting raging imps which makes your soulfire instant cast, so there's your resource generation while moving(especially if you also take power siphon), in fact you could talent yourself so that the only spell you have to hard cast is HoG for both ST and aoe so you could argue that demo is the most mobile of all our specs when it comes to both ST and aoe, provided ofc you spec for it, demo is significantly less turret'y than they used to be but as i said, you have to take the right talents for it.

If you implode the imps they don't proc MC which means no raging imps.

What's more important is that implosion has a chance to generate a shard per imp, which refunds a lot of shards. You could use power siphon for raging imps but that's an awkward bit of juggling.

[Deleted]

If you implode the imps they don't proc MC which means no raging imps.

What's more important is that implosion has a chance to generate a shard per imp, which refunds a lot of shards. You could use power siphon for raging imps but that's an awkward bit of juggling.

yeah, that is pretty important, with good RNG you could potentially just spam HoG+implosion for aoe but ofc that wouldnt very often.

apparently, blizz in their infinite wisdom has added a 1 min cd to power siphon, making it significantly less valuable, it will still be a boost in shard generation but it just feels a bit meh to me, at face value it definately seems like the talent "riders" is the way to go now, as it atleast in theory, should net you more molten core procs without a cost vs 4 garanteed MC procs every min at the cost of 4 imps but i supposed you could technically offset the cost of power siphon due to the fact that your shard regen improves so much. its one of those things where you have to ask yourself if you want the procs here and now or spread out over a minute for the task at hand etc.

[Baconeggcheese]

Mechanically I think the spec has some really obvious talents at the moment, and I mean... in general the spec really hasn't changed much from legion so far.

Its still going to be hyper dependent on haste if not more so, its still got a ton of ramp and no way to target swap and is basically a dot spec. Soulfire breaks up the monotony and commander looks to give it a CD, but nothing else really changed all that much besides not having to deal with the most soul draining parts (empowerment and tap).

[Oldmind]

Its still going to be hyper dependent on haste if not more so,

Our wild imps now don't have constant duration (was 12 sec, now some hiden energy), so haste will not scale demo so much. It will probobly play bad with low haste, but most specs in the game play badly with low haste.

[Lucrece]

Mechanically I think the spec has some really obvious talents at the moment, and I mean... in general the spec really hasn't changed much from legion so far.

Its still going to be hyper dependent on haste if not more so, its still got a ton of ramp and no way to target swap and is basically a dot spec. Soulfire breaks up the monotony and commander looks to give it a CD, but nothing else really changed all that much besides not having to deal with the most soul draining parts (empowerment and tap).

They took the lazy way out. Resembles more of a "balance druid" semi-rework that they get every expansion rather than a warlock level rework.

Unless the spec is made king of ST, it will have mediocre cleave/aoe and the poor mobility will require that it hit like a WoD arcane mage to be worth the hardcast hassle.

Except we know it's a ramp up spec, so it won't.

I don't get how it's so obvious and they fail to see it. Hardcasts work for mages because they are turrets with high mobility spells and the power is not diluted across time on dots but rather on bursty direct damage nukes. They also have a ton of instant cast procs that hit like a truck.

Warlocks have none of those tools, so I don't understand how they expect a hardcast dot spec to work at all.