Mag'har Orcs: Let's Talk Classes

[pacotaco]

Death Knight: This would make no sense given that they were literally never exposed to the scourge. Bad choice, near 0% odds of happening.

They could make an asspull like they did with worgen (they are Arugal worgen) and say the Maghar DKs are orcs from Outland. Not that I like it (I'm the opposite), but they could.

[therealbowser]

They could make an asspull like they did with worgen (they are Arugal worgen) and say the Maghar DKs are orcs from Outland. Not that I like it (I'm the opposite), but they could.

That wouldn't really work. The worgen are at least Gilnean even if they were outside of GIlneas at the time (on the other side of the wall). These orcs aren't even remotely related.

[PraisCthulhu]

Priest: This is the race they need to set them apart from orcs. This is perfectly suited for shadowmoon orcs in every possible way. They need this class.
Warlock: Lorebreaking. Not only would it go against everything in their culture to be one, they literally cannot be one without gaining green skin. This is literally an impossible combo, and if they got it, it would be beyond stupid.

I completely agree with these two. Trading Warlock for Priest makes so much sense. In both Outland and AU Draenor, the thing that sets Mag'har Orcs apart from green orcs is their rejection of fel magic. And given Shadowmoon, Priest is the perfect class to swap in for Warlock. Instead of turning to Fel, they turned to Shadow.

[Deleted]

Why does everyone seem to exclude warlocks, even thinking them to be lorebreaking? Don't you guys remember Oronok Torn-heart? He defected from Gul'dan and fought with us against the Legion. He could be the main warlock teacher for the Mag'har Orcs, the reasoning being something along the lines of "We won't be slaves to the demons, they will be slaves to us!"

[In Ogres We Trust]

Why does everyone seem to exclude warlocks, even thinking them to be lorebreaking? Don't you guys remember Oronok Torn-heart? He defected from Gul'dan and fought with us against the Legion. He could be the main warlock teacher for the Mag'har Orcs, the reasoning being something along the lines of "We won't be slaves to the demons, they will be slaves to us!"

Because Grom killed or imprisoned them, and he's still leading the Horde of Draenor, i.e. it would make no sense for them to be playable, and to be frank, it never made sense for them to be playable for the MU orcs, but alas, the "rule of cool" won out.

[Deleted]

Because Grom killed or imprisoned them, and he's still leading the Horde of Draenor, i.e. it would make no sense for them to be playable, and to be frank, it never made sense for them to be playable for the MU orcs, but alas, the "rule of cool" won out.

I don't think he'd kill or imprison Oronok, who did much more for the freedom of Draenor than Grom.

[therealbowser]

I completely agree with these two. Trading Warlock for Priest makes so much sense. In both Outland and AU Draenor, the thing that sets Mag'har Orcs apart from green orcs is their rejection of fel magic. And given Shadowmoon, Priest is the perfect class to swap in for Warlock. Instead of turning to Fel, they turned to Shadow.

Exactly! If Mag'har do not have this class, they would literally be 'brown orcs but with less classes' and not really have much to offer thematically. This sets them apart in an interesting way, IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Grom killed or imprisoned them, and he's still leading the Horde of Draenor, i.e. it would make no sense for them to be playable, and to be frank, it never made sense for them to be playable for the MU orcs, but alas, the "rule of cool" won out.

TBH it wasn't 'rule of cool', in vanilla if not for orcs, there would be only one warlock race for Horde, and honestly orcs did make sense. Now the class itself perhaps might not make sense to be added, but given that it was, orcs were a reasonable choice.

I do of course 100% agree that it would be absolutely ludicrous to give AU orcs warlocks as posted previously.

[Maljinwo]

Warlock: Lorebreaking. Not only would it go against everything in their culture to be one, they literally cannot be one without gaining green skin. This is literally an impossible combo, and if they got it, it would be beyond stupid.

Blizzard is making some... weird class choices lately.

/looks at Nightborne warlocks

[Faerillis]

Blizzard is making some... weird class choices lately.

/looks at Nightborne warlocks

I honestly don't find Nightborne Warlocks weird at all. The Felborne were those being gifted powers and infusions from the Legion because they were willing to be their Subjects. That's not what a Warlock is in WoW though; Warlocks use and subjugate Demons. There's plenty of arcane knowledge and certainly enough fel familiarity to justify Nightborne Warlocks

[therealbowser]

Blizzard is making some... weird class choices lately.

/looks at Nightborne warlocks

To be honest, nightborne warlocks do fit their race. The playable Nightborne are not only the nightborne rebels, but also the ones from the city that rejoined after the rebellion was over. Even then, it's not unreasonable that new warlocks would appear to take advantage of the power the now-defeated demons possess.

All of this said, this class was a toss-up; it could've potentially gone either way with them. But it's not that big of a stretch by any means, IMHO.

[In Ogres We Trust]

...

So you essentially want to deny very concrete evidence which is easily accessible in-game?

Ner'zhul was a shaman, in MU. In AU, they provide a very detailed narrative as to why he embraced shadow magics by worshiping the 'Dark Star' - which is a darkened Naruu. His followers do the same. In AU, they are priests. The new Orcs are from AU, e.g they are Orcs that have trained in the ways of Shadow priests.

Who are 'they', by the way? Do you mind linking the discussion, where lore representatives confirm that AU Orcs have never been Priests and were always Shamans? I'd be interested to read it, considering the entire Shadowmoon questing experience was about Shadow v Light and had a very 'priest' vibe to it.

You can read about the Orcs turning to Shadow magics in the AU here - https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul...nate_universe), in case you missed out on the wonderful questing experience of Shadowmoon (my personal opinion is that it's Draenor's best zone).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul...nate_universe)... SHAMANS

"After Ner'zhul's best shaman and their minions were slain"... SHAMANS

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadowmoon_Exiles... SHAMANS

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadowmoon...nate_universe)... SHAMANS
"Consultation with the spirits of previous generations was considered essential to Shadowmoon shaman whenever an important decision was to be made. Talismans and other relics that were important to an ancestor during life provided a more clear spiritual conduit for shamans to speak to them in the afterlife."

"Traditional armor worn by shamans of the clan."... See the image at the bottom of the page... the SHAMAN CLOTH SET THAT"S LINKED IN THIS THREAD!

They utilized Shadowform for the Shadowmoon Clan, because it SAVES DEVELOPMENT TIME, but all of the lore has them as... wait for it... SHAMANS. Their SHAMANS communed with the dead, guided the tribes, watched over the burial rights of their people, and looked to the heavens for guidance. They were SHAMANS... not PRIESTS. You... wishing for orc priests... doesn't change the fact that the Shadowmoon NPCs were SHAMANS.

[Alfryd]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul...nate_universe)... SHAMANS

"After Ner'zhul's best shaman and their minions were slain"... SHAMANS

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadowmoon_Exiles... SHAMANS

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadowmoon...nate_universe)... SHAMANS
"Consultation with the spirits of previous generations was considered essential to Shadowmoon shaman whenever an important decision was to be made. Talismans and other relics that were important to an ancestor during life provided a more clear spiritual conduit for shamans to speak to them in the afterlife."

"Traditional armor worn by shamans of the clan."... See the image at the bottom of the page... the SHAMAN CLOTH SET THAT"S LINKED IN THIS THREAD!

They utilized Shadowform for the Shadowmoon Clan, because it SAVES DEVELOPMENT TIME, but all of the lore has them as... wait for it... SHAMANS. Their SHAMANS communed with the dead, guided the tribes, watched over the burial rights of their people, and looked to the heavens for guidance. They were SHAMANS... not PRIESTS. You... wishing for orc priests... doesn't change the fact that the Shadowmoon NPCs were SHAMANS.

Centuries later, when the Iron Horde began its march across Draenor, the clan's chieftain Ner'zhul was given an ultimatum by Grom Hellscream: join or die. The Shadowmoon were not a war-like clan by tradition, but Ner'zhul joined with the Iron Horde in order to save the lives of his clansmen. Hellscream also ordered Ner'zhul to provide a worthy form of power or else he would kill the Shadowmoon anyway, as he lacked interest in their astrological and prophetic traditions. Ner'zhul, with the fate of his clan on the line, broke the ancient laws and called on the power of the Dark Star, gaining mastery over the Void.[4] Using the Void, the Shadowmoon clan raises undead and calls in creatures of shadow to battle their foes. Their nobility has been sacrificed for necromantic power, making them little different from the Scourge that a different version of Ner'zhul once commanded.

Note the word sacrifice. The semantics imply a loss of something, a transition, a change. They've sacrificed one power and embraced a new power.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadowmoon...nate_universe)

Joining the Iron Horde
Warlords of Draenor This section concerns content exclusive to Warlords of Draenor.

When the Iron Horde began its march across Draenor, Ner'zhul was given an ultimatum by Grommash Hellscream, to join him or die. Although he had no desire for war, Ner'zhul joined with the Iron Horde in order to save his clan. But Grom had no interest in the Shadowmoon's traditions of astrology, death-speaking and prophecy; he ordered Ner'zhul to provide a worthy form of power or else he would decimate Shadowmoon anyway. Ner'zhul, with the fate of his clan on the line, broke the ancient Shadowmoon laws and called on the power of the forbidden Dark Star, gaining mastery over the Void.[4][6] Ner'zhul's wife, Rulkan, disapproved of this decision, and she and several other like-minded members of the Shadowmoon left to form the Shadowmoon Exiles.

When Velen offered to help Ner'zhul so he could restore his clan to its peaceful ways, Ner'zhul revealed that the shadows of the void had already taken his soul.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul...nate_universe)

Again, the Dark Star is a Darkened Naruu. An entity made of pure void energies and has been established, in lore, as a source of void.

That's concreted lore. I've already conceded that his base class, the class he started as (both in MU and AU) was shamanism. However, he transitions into using Shadow magic. Like in the MU, he transitions into a Warlock and can no longer be considered a Shaman. In the AU, him and his followers transition into void-using priests and can no longer be considered Shamans.

Honestly, all you have to do is quest through Shadowmoon Valley on an Alliance character and you are provided very detailed quests about how Ner'zhul and his followers have embraced the ways of the void. Tell me, do Shamans use void? Do Shamans use Fel? Do you consider Ner'zhul a shaman throughout his life in MU even when he blatantly abandoned the ways of Shamanism and embraced Fel? It's no different here. Individuals in lore change classes as their stories progress (Illidan, Arthas etc), and Ner'zhul transitions from Shaman -> Warlock MU, and Shaman -> Priest in AU.

I'm also still waiting for you to provide official lore statements which declare his shamanism in tact, not outdated background details. If you follow the chronological narrative of Ner'zhul in AU, however, you witness his story concludes with him embracing the void.

Also, capitalising random words doesn't help your argument fyi. All it does it display a rather annoying misunderstanding of syntax.

[Al-Simmons]

just pointing on that void magic is a thing in the dark shamanism, so doesn't mean the shadowmoon clan in draenor are Priests just because they use void, but "dark shamans"

they can give this excuse

[Alfryd]

just pointing on that void magic is a thing in the dark shamanism, so doesn't mean the shadowmoon clan in draenor are Priests just because they use void, but "dark shamans"

they can give this excuse

Dark Shamans abuse the elements. This clan is deriving their void power from a darkened Naruu. Naruu's don't really have a solid history with elements/shamanism to my knowledge.

Edit:

Wowpedia also seems to specify that

'The Iron Horde's dark shaman are of the Warsong clan, and use the Void to enslave the elements.[4]'

. To specify the origins of the Iron Horde shamans seems to indicate that they only come from one clan, the Warsong, otherwise Shadowmoon would also be included or an umbrella term would be coined which would include all the clans. The sematics suggest then, that the Shadowmoon aren't Dark Shamans because their power is sourced from a different entity.


Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_shaman

[Al-Simmons]

Dark Shamans abuse the elements. This clan is deriving their void power from a darkened Naruu. Naruu's don't really have a solid history with elements/shamanism to my knowledge.

they abuse the elements binding then with the power of decay, who can be a variation from the void cause the shadowlands are a realm of decay.

here i find the text:

The Iron Horde's dark shaman are of the Warsong clan, and use the Void to enslave the elements

No longer do the Warsong seek to be one with the elements; instead they abuse their power by using it to channel the darkness of the void.

the shadowmoon use the void directly

[Alfryd]

they abuse the elements binding then with the power of decay, who can be a variation from the void cause the shadowlands are a realm of decay

But the Shadowmoon Clan learned of the Void through a Darkened Naaru, which is not an element nor an entitty of decay. Their power is not conditional on subjecting elements, rather, they listened to the whispers of the Void and they've been granted power. The class most alligned with that tranisition in WoW is Priest.

Edit:

the shadowmoon use the void directly

Yes, they do. From a Darkened Naaru, which has nothing to do with Shamanism.

Dark naaru

Naaru can die, but if their physical form is damaged, it may bleed their energy causing them to enter a darkened state[32] in which they are weakened and produce void energies,[33] becoming dark naaru[34] (Dark Naaru)[35] or darkened naaru.[36] A naaru's darkened state is different than death. Their energy may take up to one thousand years to regenerate.[37] It should be noted that some darkened naaru still appear to harbor altruistic intentions; however, their weakened state may be exploited for nefarious purposes, such as creating void minions[38] and raising the undead.[39] It is unknown if this cycle occurs naturally without an external catalyst. Examples of darkened naaru are D'ore, M'uru, K'ure, and K'ara. Thrice, darkened naaru have also been shown to transform further into void gods; though in all known occasions this was only when their light was forcibly drained by an outside party, so it does not seem to be a natural phenomenon and is normally extremely rare. The ethereal Locus-Walker noted that the few cases of naaru falling into Void he knew of had occurred when mortals were involved, which he thought carried fascinating implications.[40]

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Naaru#Dark_naaru

Dark Shamanism is a decent point to make but irrelevant to the Shadowmoon Clan. It's been stated numerous times throughout lore, quests and cinematics (the end of Shadowmoon Valley) that their void power was taught by listening to the 'Dark Star'. Again, the origins of their power most allign with the class in Priests as it transitions into playable classes.

Edit:

Here's a cinematic of Ner'zhul using Void energy in relation to the Naaru.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5MpzSudQvk

[Al-Simmons]

Yes, they do. From a Darkened Naaru, which has nothing to do with Shamanism.
]

from where, is irrelevant, the point is they use void magic only, and can be considered dark shamans, because is what dark shamanism stand for, using void/decay, to do his bindings, who can be control and enslave the elements or use they directly

Even if its a hint of the shadow priest spec work, they would need to explain all other specs and how they could use the light, and i don't think they care that much to explain, if so, they would put priests in normal orcs, since the MU shadowmoon have priests who use the light

Besides, they prob arr tying to give the vanilla feels in the game, so they prob will not be priests

[Alfryd]

from where, is irrelevant, the point is they use void magic only, and can be considered dark shamans, because is what dark shamanism stand for, using void/decay, to do his bindings, who can be control and enslave the elements or use they directly

Even if its a hint of the shadow priest spec work, they would need to explain all other specs and how they could use the light, and i don't think they care that much to explain, if so, they would put priests in normal orcs, since the MU shadowmoon have priests who use the light

Besides, they prob arr tying to give the vanilla feels in the game, so they prob will not be priests

1) I don't understand your first point? You concede that they draw Void from the Dark Star and then follow through that they are still Dark Shamans? I don't follow? They aren't Dark Shamans simply because 'they use the void', because how they use the Void is fundamentally different.

2) Erm, lol? Like they've explained Void Elf Holy Priests?

3) I disagree. I think they will try and emulate the climate from where these Orcs are coming from, that of Draenor. I forsee that Priests will replace Warlocks in terms of their 'morally dubious' class, and it will be done through the Shadowmoon clan.

[Soeroah]

I think mages could be more likely than warlocks. We start an allied race at level 20, which generally means they're just starting their journey, and in the year or so after WoD's finale it's possible a group of orcs could have started studying the Highmaul ogre's notes and relics. Orcs are supposed to be pretty gifted with magic given their titanic origins - the Azeroth ones did pick it up pretty well after they started trying.

[Al-Simmons]

1) I don't understand your first point? You concede that they draw Void from the Dark Star and then follow through that they are still Dark Shamans? I don't follow? They aren't Dark Shamans simply because 'they use the void', because how they use the Void is fundamentally different.

no matter from where you drawn power, void is void, like light is light, no matter the source, using is fundamentally the same, the difference is from where they get the powers,and they don't care about, for then still is shamanism

2) Erm, lol? Like they've explained Void Elf Holy Priests?

there is nothing wrong with that, its just players assuming they can't

3) I disagree. I think they will try and emulate the climate from where these Orcs are coming from, that of Draenor. I forsee that Priests will replace Warlocks in terms of their 'morally dubious' class, and it will be done through the Shadowmoon clan.

giving how they are pushing the horde as different from the alliance in terms of worship powers, i doubt that. like they are putting shamans on the horde and paladins on the Alliance.

And if the normal orcs can't be priests, when they have way more base in the game, with shadow and light priests, i don't think they will put the maghar as priests, just because some of then sue void and have nothing ever to do with the light.