How do we feel these days about M+ scoring?

[ID811717]

Next time you go to pug, have a look through all the normal and hc listing, you'll find a few groups asking for curve and high io - usually the groups that are like 'normal run, speed run 970 and curve' look at their description

Are you from US? I haven't seen (or heard of) anything similar on EU servers yet. But may be it's something happening on US (then it will migrate to EU soon).

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So.. can we? (order pizza)

Sure! I am brewmaster so I'll bring the beer.

[Donald Hellscream]

I don't believe arbitrary numbers reflect skill, its just like thinking a certain ilvl makes people skilled.

Ultimately though, it doesn't affect me as I rarely ever pug a m+.

[Rotted]

EU

Usually look for runs and find these ones on alts on a Friday / Saturday night, later rather than earlier

Are you from US? I haven't seen (or heard of) anything similar on EU servers yet. But may be it's something happening on US (then it will migrate to EU soon).

[Mlz]

Next time you go to pug, have a look through all the normal and hc listing, you'll find a few groups asking for curve and high io - usually the groups that are like 'normal run, speed run 970 and curve' look at their description

Raider.io shows how many boss kills do you have in each difficulty, when did you earn your curve, your artifact traits, gear, equipped ilvl and what not. Those groups won't be checking your M+ score lol.

Edit: I actually just whispered leaders of groups who claimed they are checking raider.io and they said they are looking at the amount of kills not M+ score.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Raider.io shows how many boss kills do you have in each difficulty, when did you earn your curve, your artifact traits, gear, equipped ilvl and what not. Those groups won't be checking your M+ score lol.

Edit: I actually just whispered leaders of groups who claimed they are checking raider.io and they said they are looking at the amount of kills not M+ score.

Oh, well that makes sense then.

[Carnedge]

I like the idea of the system, but it has flaws.

1. Blizzard should just build this into the game. Just give people a score based on their average each "season"

2. It doesn't seem balanced between classes that only have 1 role and others that have 3. It may be, but as far as I can tell it's going to work against one of them. If the 3 role class doesn't run dungeons in all three specs they are punished when compared to pure dps spec. Or if it works the opposite (3 role classes get more points instead of it averaging their Role runs) they have a huge leg up on Pure DPS classes. Either way you slice it, it's not fair. (Not sure if the addon shows scores for each role. I've only seen the 1 combined score in game. I won't got to a website to constantly search characters when forming a group. Pain in the ass)

3. Updates slow. If you are pushing keys on a new character, the addon doesn't update in real time. That in itself will hinder getting/forming groups to actually push keys that week.

4. I think the scoring system could be much better. Doesn't seem like your score can ever go down. So if you pay for a Carry once each dungeon with good times on a high key, you will maintain that score for the rest of the season. That makes for false positives when ppl look for good players.

[ID811717]

2. It doesn't seem balanced between classes that only have 1 role and others that have 3. It may be, but as far as I can tell it's going to work against one of them. If the 3 role class doesn't run dungeons in all three specs they are punished when compared to pure dps spec. Or if it works the opposite (3 role classes get more points instead of it averaging their Role runs) they have a huge leg up on Pure DPS classes. Either way you slice it, it's not fair. (Not sure if the addon shows scores for each role. I've only seen the 1 combined score in game. I won't got to a website to constantly search characters when forming a group. Pain in the ass)

Raider.io assigns a separate score for each role (damage/healing/tanking), and then also combines them together for a joint score across all specs. It does not punish anyone. If I play a druid and have experience tanking AND healing AND dpsing Seat+15, it does not mean I have experience running Seat+20 on any of these specs. I might be a better (more versatile) player overall because I can play all roles, but M+ score is supposed to reflect my experience running high keys, not "how good I am at the game overall".

3. Updates slow. If you are pushing keys on a new character, the addon doesn't update in real time. That in itself will hinder getting/forming groups to actually push keys that week.

Raider.io addon updates once per day, and their website updates within 15-20 minutes. I never found it inconvenient.

4. I think the scoring system could be much better. Doesn't seem like your score can ever go down. So if you pay for a Carry once each dungeon with good times on a high key, you will maintain that score for the rest of the season. That makes for false positives when ppl look for good players.

I don't want to be punished for helping friends and guild alts in +15.

[unbound]

Overall, it's the same garbage as ilvl.

I got a chuckle out of a heroic raid run recently where people found out I was 10 ilvls or more beneath most, but was consistently running 3rd or 4th. The right gear and the ability to play are never reflected in such arbitrary systems.

My M score isn't particularly great as my guild doesn't do M+ runs very often (and usually when I'm not on) which means I'm pugging most of the time. While I can knock out a +15 pretty easily, I've had plenty of runs that evaporate for a great many reasons that have nothing to do with me (bad tanking, bad healing, bad attention to address affix by too many in the group).

And the same old problems creep up that has far more to do with a bad player base. If it isn't super easy, then they don't want to do it. These scoring systems just encourage that bad attitude and increases that bad player base.

[Carnedge]

Raider.io assigns a separate score for each role (damage/healing/tanking), and then also combines them together for a joint score across all specs. It does not punish anyone. If I play a druid and have experience tanking AND healing AND dpsing Seat+15, it does not mean I have experience running Seat+20 on any of these specs. I might be a better (more versatile) player overall because I can play all roles, but M+ score is supposed to reflect my experience running high keys, not "how good I am at the game overall".



Raider.io addon updates once per day, and their website updates within 15-20 minutes. I never found it inconvenient.



I don't want to be punished for helping friends and guild alts in +15.

If it combines the scores (adds?) for all three roles, how is that score not going to be higher than a class that only has DPS roles? It's unfair to classes that aren't hybrid. And isn't talking about score and highest Key completed two different things?

I find searching a website inconvenient. I don't even Tab out to use WoWhead if I'm stuck on a quest unless I absolutely can't figure something out. Everyone is different. And the Addon updating once a day is not accurate if you're doing several keys a day.

And I understand not wanting to be punished if purposely running with bad players. But if we are going to have a scoring system like this, it needs to be accurate or else what is the point. It's a slippery slope and all.

- - - Updated - - -

Overall, it's the same garbage as ilvl.

I got a chuckle out of a heroic raid run recently where people found out I was 10 ilvls or more beneath most, but was consistently running 3rd or 4th. The right gear and the ability to play are never reflected in such arbitrary systems.

My M score isn't particularly great as my guild doesn't do M+ runs very often (and usually when I'm not on) which means I'm pugging most of the time. While I can knock out a +15 pretty easily, I've had plenty of runs that evaporate for a great many reasons that have nothing to do with me (bad tanking, bad healing, bad attention to address affix by too many in the group).

And the same old problems creep up that has far more to do with a bad player base. If it isn't super easy, then they don't want to do it. These scoring systems just encourage that bad attitude and increases that bad player base.

I agree with you and often find myself in the exact same situation.

The community will always find a way to judge others to try and weed out bad players.

Best way to do it is if Blizzard implemented their own IO score that goes up and down like MMR. It would also tank massively if you are the first person to leave a group before the key was finished. This would stop players from fishing groups (and bailing) until they found themselves in a carry group.

[Deleted]

I dont use it myself but seems like too many go by score too much. I run +15 on my warr tank easy all the time with my friends and done a couple on my alt which is an enh shaman with ilvl 950.

Joined a grp on my shaman and got kicked pretty much instantly as "I didnt have enough experience in m+"... Thats my take on people that use m+ score, most of them are idiots.

Seems like its the old raid score thing in wotlk. Funny thing is that when I had to argue to get in those raids on my alt hunter or ele shaman I was usually nr1 in dps because I knew how to min max.

Btw, do people still buy their characters? Usually when I take randoms for m+ and I get like 965-970+ ilvl people they usually are really really bad. Doing territble dps and die to stuff you shouldnt all the time.

[ID811717]

If it combines the scores (adds?) for all three roles, how is that score not going to be higher than a class that only has DPS roles? It's unfair to classes that aren't hybrid.

The joint score is based on your best run in each dungeon, regardless of what role you played.

I find searching a website inconvenient. I don't even Tab out to use WoWhead if I'm stuck on a quest unless I absolutely can't figure something out. Everyone is different. And the Addon updating once a day is not accurate if you're doing several keys a day.

How much score can you get on a good day? I reckon something around 150 if you played all evening and were lucky with keys&group. What is the difference between, say, 3100 and 3250 score? None at all. The only way to differentiate between these players is to go to the website and check their runs for the specific dungeon.

[Deleted]

Yes - people still buy characters, boosts and gear. Can't buy playing experience, not to mention skill.

Raider.io will indeed "combine" your spec roles IF they don't overlap. If you run a CoS15 as tank, a CoS10 as dps and then a MoS15 as dps and MoS10 as tank it will give you the scores for CoS15 and MoS15 in the "total", but if you want to "alt mousover" or "check the website" you can see what some character's score is as tank and dps respectively.

In the same way, the addon will show how many 10-14 and +15 IN TIME keys the character has done (if they made it to leaderboards). That's PLENTY information you can work with IF YOU WANT. If you don't want to work with what you're give (free of charge, free of ads, free of your input), you can whine, complain and compare all this information to gearscore (a total of 1 (ONE!) metric), how Blizz broke it for the same reasons it should break raider.io (except recently giving more information to this tool due to popular demand) and find more and more excuses why you are entitled to something while this addon stops you from getting it.

You can use raider.io to check out other people. I use it when looking for pugs (i.e. whisper to leaders that advertise +2000 score requirements for a 10, while having some 500ish score themselves and then put them on my ignore list, so our worlds won't mix in the future). When I find a pug, I use mph (mythic plus helper) to see all members at one glance - their artifacts, legos, tier, score, numbers completed, etc. It happened often enough that I joined a pug, saw the information in mph and politely declined to be part of such a group composition (i.e. advertise high demands, have 2 people with relatively low hp and low artifact). It also happened often enough that I was ok with helping to carry someone. It's up to me to decide and I will make use of all tools available to make my gaming experience as fun as possible. It's my time that's on stake.

[Jastall]

Overall, it's the same garbage as ilvl.

I got a chuckle out of a heroic raid run recently where people found out I was 10 ilvls or more beneath most, but was consistently running 3rd or 4th. The right gear and the ability to play are never reflected in such arbitrary systems.

My M score isn't particularly great as my guild doesn't do M+ runs very often (and usually when I'm not on) which means I'm pugging most of the time. While I can knock out a +15 pretty easily, I've had plenty of runs that evaporate for a great many reasons that have nothing to do with me (bad tanking, bad healing, bad attention to address affix by too many in the group).

And the same old problems creep up that has far more to do with a bad player base. If it isn't super easy, then they don't want to do it. These scoring systems just encourage that bad attitude and increases that bad player base.

Yeah I think it's my biggest beef with raider.io; it's very obvious that a lot of people demanding high scores want to be carried by better players than them. When I pug M+,very rarely is the key holder the best player in the run. At least in keys around 15-17; once you're 20+ it's usually competent players looking for other competent players, but if I'm doing 20+ I sure as fuck ain't pugging it.

It is not a problem with the score system per se, but with how players predictably use said system.

[Veiled Shadow]

In the same way, the addon will show how many 10-14 and +15 IN TIME keys the character has done (if they made it to leaderboards).

It's not necessary that a run make it to the leaderboard to be counted for that metric (number of in-time dungeons in the key range).

[ydraw]

Overall, it's the same garbage as ilvl.

I got a chuckle out of a heroic raid run recently where people found out I was 10 ilvls or more beneath most, but was consistently running 3rd or 4th. The right gear and the ability to play are never reflected in such arbitrary systems..

But funnily enough they are reflected in logs, which as I have said is a much better indicator of individual player ability than M+ score is.

[amaze123]

Overall, it's the same garbage as ilvl.

I got a chuckle out of a heroic raid run recently where people found out I was 10 ilvls or more beneath most, but was consistently running 3rd or 4th. The right gear and the ability to play are never reflected in such arbitrary systems.

My M score isn't particularly great as my guild doesn't do M+ runs very often (and usually when I'm not on) which means I'm pugging most of the time. While I can knock out a +15 pretty easily, I've had plenty of runs that evaporate for a great many reasons that have nothing to do with me (bad tanking, bad healing, bad attention to address affix by too many in the group).

And the same old problems creep up that has far more to do with a bad player base. If it isn't super easy, then they don't want to do it. These scoring systems just encourage that bad attitude and increases that bad player base.

You should try to use the tool right and visit raider.io once. It gives you far more information than just a number and you will see that comparing it to ilvl is completly retarded. You do not even have to use the score itself. Just check their run history and you have a general idea what you can expect. You will never be able to completly avoid bad groups, but prechecked pugs are much more likely to perform well than pugs without.

[RuneDK]

I don't despise it since they updated the ranking system. They being Blizzard. However I'm still not a fan. I still find it BS that you can be 11/11M ABT and still get declined from pugs because your raider.io isn't 2k(hasn't happened to me, but happened to a friend of mine). I mean I get why there's a system in place like this...but if you think an 11/11M player isn't capable because his score isn't what you like then you're a fricken moron.

[Pratt]

In parties with a good score my failure rate is pretty close to 0%. Loving it.

[Deleted]

I don't despise it since they updated the ranking system. They being Blizzard. However I'm still not a fan. I still find it BS that you can be 11/11M ABT and still get declined from pugs because your raider.io isn't 2k(hasn't happened to me, but happened to a friend of mine). I mean I get why there's a system in place like this...but if you think an 11/11M player isn't capable because his score isn't what you like then you're a fricken moron.

I agree that players use the tools they are given in very idiotic ways sometimes. At the same time I wonder how many 11/11m ABT guilds recruit people without good mythic parses but very high m+ score instead ... what do you think?