"Cynically negative" community cause of communication breakdown

[Aggrophobic]

I was expecting a reply like that, so...whatever.

If you have no intrest in discussing the subject then why are you posting at all?

[Aggrophobic]

I stated my point of view on the subject, you have posted yours. I re-enforced mine, you re-enforced yours. None of us is budging. Is there a point to this?

You could indeed truly state this to every poster in every subject. I have yet to see somebody go "Hmm..maybe you have a point that I wasn't seeing before"

I don't believe every poster and every comment is rational. I believe there are trolls and toxic posters. I believe there are posters who are plainly insulting people. I believe a company should have the right to not refuse to deal with these people.

You and others believe differently.

Can you see us agreeing on anything with these conflicting standpoints? Or would we rather be going back and forth insisting on our opinions?

Fair enough.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure they listen to the feedback and hear us.
They said "that part of the community" - what means people who are not willing or able to discuss on a normal level.
That's the difference. But you make of it "the players"

When I read the posts here I can completely understand why Blizz is tired of discussing with some. You are always whining, not able or willing to understand the other side and if they do not agree with you, they hear only "you give a shit on the game/on the players" or simply "don't listen to the community"

There is a difference between complaining/whining about everything and giving proper feedback. This "but I want my candy" mentality here in WoW is completely out of hand.

[Gaidax]

If you have no intrest in discussing the subject then why are you posting at all?

There is a difference between complaints and outright malicious well-poisoning, you know something like this: The game is awful, the QA questions are canned, the feedback is meaningless, the game isn't changing for anything but a game-breaking integrity issue, which doesn't make sense since the game's integrity has been destroyed by larger more broken "features"

Just go without a community manager, obviously when you're a CM you can't tell the higher-ups their game is terrible, or you'll get fired, so it's either constant positivity from the community (impossibility considering the state of the game) or no community manager at all.

Either way, WoW is resigned to the grave.


I was there in Legion Alpha and I know for myself that Blizzard indeed engages with constructive feedback and makes changes when they agree with those, because I seen the quality closed Alpha forums with suggestions plenty of which got implemented.

Some player ideas Blizz went with resulted in failure ultimately and not everything was accepted, but engagement was there. It was pretty cool to see how abilities were changed a couple of weeks later to match what a player suggested, for example Destruction's Lord of Flames getting tied to Summon Infernal or Demonic Empowerment affecting all demons and not being on charges (which ultimately, IMO, was a bad call) and that's just a few examples.

And would you believe? We did not even have to scream at top of our lungs how Blizz are corporate evil incarnates hellbent on destroying their game and how MvPs are bootlickers working for "the man" or how the "gaem gonna be ded unless you do what I say!".

[Aggrophobic]

There is a difference between complaints and outright malicious well-poisoning, you know something like this: The game is awful, the QA questions are canned, the feedback is meaningless, the game isn't changing for anything but a game-breaking integrity issue, which doesn't make sense since the game's integrity has been destroyed by larger more broken "features"

Just go without a community manager, obviously when you're a CM you can't tell the higher-ups their game is terrible, or you'll get fired, so it's either constant positivity from the community (impossibility considering the state of the game) or no community manager at all.

Either way, WoW is resigned to the grave.


I was there in Legion Alpha and I know for myself that Blizzard indeed engages with constructive feedback and makes changes when they agree with those, because I seen the quality closed Alpha forums with suggestions plenty of which got implemented.

Some player ideas Blizz went with resulted in failure ultimately and not everything was accepted, but engagement was there. It was pretty cool to see how abilities were changed a couple of weeks later to match what a player suggested, for example Destruction's Lord of Flames getting tied to Summon Infernal or Demonic Empowerment affecting all demons and not being on charges (which ultimately, IMO, was a bad call) and that's just a few examples.

And would you believe? We did not even have to scream at top of our lungs how Blizz are corporate evil incarnates hellbent on destroying their game and how MvPs are bootlickers working for "the man".

Not sure why you tossed this my way. I never said Blizzard was "hellbent on destroying their game". The CM in question has a rather poor attitude though and he's not really fit for the job he's been given.

[Gaidax]

Not sure why you tossed this my way. I never said Blizzard was "hellbent on destroying their game". The CM in question has a rather poor attitude though and he's not really fit for the job he's been given.

I strongly believe that bullshit should be called and outright malicious posting should be dealt with. It seems people have laser focused on one specific half-sentence, as opposed to seeing the whole context which is the case of a butthurt MVP program failure trying to break the whole thing down.

I don't see how such things should be engaged with everything but an outright thread lock. Purpose of that thread was chiefly harassment of Blizzard and MVPs and not constructive discussion.

CM is not meant to wipe dirty butts and running noses of every passing retard, people who come with loaded opinion just to steer up trouble should not be given a reward. Community management does not mean you give prizes to outright troublemakers trying to whip toxic posters into shitposting frenzy.

[TickTickTick]

I absolutely agree with him. WoW's community is one of the worst, either passive-aggresive mister-know-it-all, or straight haters, feeling entitled to anything and no matter what blizzard does, the community rages.

You people are what caused this. For this reason I dont admit to my friends that im playing wow, thats how bad reputation its community has.

[Lochton]

The irony here is that aaaaaaall the way through MoP, it was being absolutely shat on by the community for its "cutesy, Kung Fu Panda" vibe. Never-ending vitriol. Now people are saying it was one of the greats.

Same thing with WotLK - during the expac itself, everyone was shouting at the top of their voice how it was "lazy and easy, dumbed down, incomplete" yadda yadda... and then several years on you keep seeing WotLK at the tops of a lot of "best expac" lists.

The point is, people whine and cry and bitch and complain and throw tantrums all the time, ad nauseum, about everything. You can't throw a rock without hitting a "THIS GAME IS DEAD NOW" rant, and its been this way basically since the game was released. Everyone wants to have a cry about something, and it never stops.

People say "Blizzard should listen to the players". Sure. Which players should they listen to? There are millions of people with millions of different opinions. Every so often someone makes a statement saying "all of us want X from the game" which is absolutely fucking ludicrous, because it competes with statements simultaneously saying "all of us want Y from the game" and "we want to see more of Z".

People are, generally, just happy to complain, and everyone's opinion is different to everyone else's.

Do you actually think this company, one of THE most successful game companies of all time, sits down and says "You know what we should do with our most popular product, our flagship and biggest earner, one that we as its developers are passionate about? LOL LETS MAKE IT SHIT, JUST FOR A LAUGH".

You can't see it, but I am clapping. My department is staring at me oddly, but you are damn right.

[Aggrophobic]

I strongly believe that bullshit should be called and outright malicious posting should be dealt with. It seems people have laser focused on one specific half-sentence, as opposed to seeing the whole context which is the case of a butthurt MVP program failure trying to break the whole thing down.

I don't see how such things should be engaged with everything but an outright thread lock. Purpose of that thread was chiefly harassment of Blizzard and MVPs and not constructive discussion.

CM is not meant to wipe dirty butts and running noses of every passing retard, people who come with loaded opinion just to steer up trouble should not be given a reward. Community management does not mean you give prizes to outright troublemakers trying to whip toxic posters into shitposting frenzy.

Again, not saying they should. Locking the thread would have been a valid response.
Saying that you care what your customers say if they have something negative to say is just stupid and it is like asking for trouble.

That CM just took a simple troll thread and used it to show that he is poor at his on job.

[Tiwack]

In a recent Blizzard post, Ornyx insists that it is the "cynically negative" community at fault for the communication breakdown between Blizzard and the community:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...age=6#post-116
He fails to see "any reason why it would be in our best interest to actively engage with" this part of the community.

My response is simply this: if a community manager does not wish to manage and participate with the community then they should immediately resign and find someone who is willing to try. If that is how they really feel, we will continue stuck in this limbo state indefinitely as long as they're around.

It is not helpful in the slightest when one side has clearly given up attempting to manage the community as a community manager. There is nothing more frustrating than employees who stick around when they have clearly given up and burnt out. Be the change they want us to be.

Yep. Someone needs to take a chill pill or some time off. You can't treat the community as a single constant - and players old and new care about the game and are just as passionate as the people blizz employ. You can't deny people from having an opinion and expressing it. You can invest in education with your billions if you don't like the discourse and tone. It's a perfect storm of passion, investment and lack of tools to express yourself constructively that creates the fire and brimstone. Coupled with anons venting on the internet, misdirecting anger out of frustration or immaturity.
If you must, then put in some new rules to improve discourse to combat nonconstructive posts in the serious parts of the forum used for feedback and suggestions. How hard can it be to think for yourself instead of blindly following orders?

- - - Updated - - -

Saying that you care what your customers say if they have something negative to say is just stupid and it is like asking for trouble.

That's how intelligent business is done and the cornerstone of improving a product is customer feedback. How can you improve your product if you're not taking in feedback-critique, positive and negative? :P

[Echocho]

You don't reason with unreasonable people so I see where they're coming from.

[Feuerbart]

Again, not saying they should. Locking the thread would have been a valid response.
Saying that you care what your customers say if they have something negative to say is just stupid and it is like asking for trouble.

That CM just took a simple troll thread and used it to show that he is poor at his on job.

That´s just not what was posted. They said they don´t want to react to negativity. They do react to negative feedback as long as it´s civil. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

[Tiwack]

I absolutely agree with him. WoW's community is one of the worst, either passive-aggresive mister-know-it-all, or straight haters, feeling entitled to anything and no matter what blizzard does, the community rages.

You people are what caused this. For this reason I dont admit to my friends that im playing wow, thats how bad reputation its community has.

Puberty is going to be the end of the world one day :P
Don't let others speak for you. Express the things you are passionate about regardless of the people you might be grouped with. Only an idiot would label you via prejudice before you even had a chance to speak and express your stance. When you don't speak up you're automatically lumped in with the vocal minorities that exist in every aspect of life that give the rest a bad rep. WoW and videogame culture is a prime example of this even though nerds exist in every other hobby as well. Labelling everyone as basement dwellers just because they enjoy video-games is only true for a tiny minority that's stereotyped and projected on the whole because people don't dispute it and just ignore the conversation when it comers up. Idiots will take it at face-value assuming it to be true and share it with others. Who doesn't like to wallow in cynical negativity every now and then to try and get on top of everything
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Raelbo]

Yeah, he's saying that Blizzard doesn't care if their customers are not happy with the product. Thats a rather dangerous stance to take.

Except he's not saying that all. He's saying something completely different in fact

[Bryntrollian]

I think he's right, but time will tell for sure.

[kamuimac]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Look how bad WoD was compared to -any- expansion including Cataclysm. We just got out of that expansion into one full of content and now we're diving back into one that is missing about 35% of Legion's content. RNG has existed the entirety of this game. It sucks I know but it's not just present on WoW.

- - - Updated - - -



They're doing it for the "Fame and name.".

how exackly is legion any different then WoD thouh ? baring for mythic + which you cant do high keys unless with a guild its stil lthe same shit barren contentless expansion .

the only difference they did is adding mythic + - and causal people are locked out o it due to "bring 960 to +2 or gtfo"

if someone is not doin organized content with his/hers guild legion is exackly as bad as WoD was.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The irony here is that aaaaaaall the way through MoP, it was being absolutely shat on by the community for its "cutesy, Kung Fu Panda" vibe. Never-ending vitriol. Now people are saying it was one of the greats.

Same thing with WotLK - during the expac itself, everyone was shouting at the top of their voice how it was "lazy and easy, dumbed down, incomplete" yadda yadda... and then several years on you keep seeing WotLK at the tops of a lot of "best expac" lists.

The point is, people whine and cry and bitch and complain and throw tantrums all the time, ad nauseum, about everything. You can't throw a rock without hitting a "THIS GAME IS DEAD NOW" rant, and its been this way basically since the game was released. Everyone wants to have a cry about something, and it never stops.

People say "Blizzard should listen to the players". Sure. Which players should they listen to? There are millions of people with millions of different opinions. Every so often someone makes a statement saying "all of us want X from the game" which is absolutely fucking ludicrous, because it competes with statements simultaneously saying "all of us want Y from the game" and "we want to see more of Z".

People are, generally, just happy to complain, and everyone's opinion is different to everyone else's.

Do you actually think this company, one of THE most successful game companies of all time, sits down and says "You know what we should do with our most popular product, our flagship and biggest earner, one that we as its developers are passionate about? LOL LETS MAKE IT SHIT, JUST FOR A LAUGH".

One thing we should all be able to agree on: there's lots of stuff we disagree on. Make perfect sense to me that Blizz would wait for it all to play out in the forums, distill the genuine feedback from the handful who complain about everything, and only take action once they're certain they know how to make things better not worse. Because no matter what fix they attempt, some are going to complain about that as well. It's always been that way, since there's been WoW and forums about WoW.

[Deleted]

It is a 50-50 fault.


Blizzard is sometimes blind to customer needs

And sometimes customers are a bunch of whiny kiddo throwing shit.

[Deleted]

I absolutely agree with him. WoW's community is one of the worst, either passive-aggresive mister-know-it-all, or straight haters, feeling entitled to anything and no matter what blizzard does, the community rages.

You people are what caused this. For this reason I dont admit to my friends that im playing wow, thats how bad reputation its community has.

You are so superior to everyone else who plays.

[Deleted]

You are so superior to everyone else who plays.

Hes not wrong. The community is absolutely horrible. Just look at some of the posters in this tread. Scarecrowz, Arag. All of them except for RDA have come out of the woodwork again with their shit.