[SPOILERS]: Saurfang Stockades Dialogue

[Mehrunes]

Saurfang was there during the Siege of Orgrimmar, he clears out the Klaxxi chambers for the Horde players, I thought?

If you're talking about in terms of ignoring Garrosh before that, well, everyone did, except the Alliance of course.

Except for Cairne, Vol'jin, all the people conspiring in Razor Hill after Theramore, Lor'themar, Thrall, Sylvanas and even Gob Squad and Gallywix. Saurfang joined at the last second when others were planning things against Garrosh or even taking action right from the start like Cairne.

[Dudas]

It's the only argument Saurfang has. So, what are you talking about?

No no no we have to fight azerite empowered siege towers with GRUNTS!!! That can use an axe and can CHARGE!!! And don't forget to die and let them plant the Alliance flag on your heart after you die.

[Deleted]

Cairne literally stared at the Iron Juggernaut and that was his whole contribution.

Cairne, not Baine.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Ughh... Looks like we're on boat to Obviousland.

Yeah personally I like Anduin and Saurfang, but I'm hoping they throw us a curve ball so it's not all obvious and same old story. Personally, I've always been disappointed they didn't do more with Vol'jin. I thought he had potential to be both good ruler and badass/don't want to cross that voodoo boss at same time. I know there are a lot of Sylvanas apologists, but Blizz has been writing her as quasi-villain all along. Pitting her against Saurfang, the very symbol of Horde honor, does not bode well for her.

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Because Saurfang meant not just insults as reason why he don't want to follow her lead.

I think Saurfang is onto something deeper. He commanded the combined armies against void forces in Silithus before, remember? "NOTHING GOOD EVER CAME OUT OF SILITHUS!" And now he sees madness breaking out all around. I want this to be something other than Garrosh 2.0, and I expect Azerite to be part of that story.

[Mehrunes]

Vol'jin didn't do anything until he was stabbed in the throat.

Cairne literally stared at the Iron Juggernaut and that was his whole contribution.

I state my point again, everyone completely ignored Garrosh up until the uprising happened. So Saurfang doing nothing until then didn't mean he was "fine" with how Garrosh was, as clearly no one else was fine with it but they went along with him.

One could even argue it's because he never did anything earlier to Garrosh that he feels more of a drive to act out of honor this time around.

Either way, it's a moot point to compare this to Garrosh.

Cairne started at the Iron Juggernaut 2-3 years after being cremated? Damn, Cairne is more badass than what I gave him credit for. Anyway, you're moving goalposts. Your previous post talked about Saurfang's actions in Siege of Orgrimmar and how other characters didn't act either "before that". With context indicating that "before that" referred to Siege of Orgrimmar. Which is false. And this post isn't even internally consistent even when you ignore the goalpost move. If everyone completely ignored Garrosh until uprising happened, your very first line here disproves that. Because uprising happened in 5.3, yet you mention Vol'jin starting to act after he got stabbed, which happened in 5.1.

[Jester Joe]

Except for Cairne, Vol'jin, all the people conspiring in Razor Hill after Theramore, Lor'themar, Thrall, Sylvanas and even Gob Squad and Gallywix. Saurfang joined at the last second when others were planning things against Garrosh or even taking action right from the start like Cairne.

As far as I remember, after Theramore, Cairne tried to get people to confront Garrosh, but Vol'jin was still against it at that point out of fear for his people.

In terms of actions though, what was done? It's not like Saurfang had a real role at that point, the only thing we were given was "The leaders don't really like him and kinda want to get rid of him" until Garrosh tried to get Vol'jin killed off.

Now I could be wrong, there could be more I'm forgetting, but most of what I remember was just talks of "we don't really like him, but we'll still follow him for now".

Which I would say is safe to say where Saurfang fell, I mean, didn't he threaten Garrosh before with the whole "I'll kill you myself before I see you lead the Horde down a dark road again"? And there he was, fighting during the Siege against Garrosh.

Mind you, I'm talking about actions, not just planning. Blizzard has a horrible track record with actually including more than 3-5 characters at once even if it suits the character, and Saurfang didn't really have a spotlight at all during MoP as far as I know. There was nothing to say either he was "fine" with Garrosh like Tauror is claiming.

Cairne started at the Iron Juggernaut 2-3 years after being cremated? Damn, Cairne is more badass than what I gave him credit for. Anyway, you're moving goalposts. Your previous post talked about Saurfang's actions in Siege of Orgrimmar and how other characters didn't act either "before that". With context indicating that "before that" referred to Siege of Orgrimmar. Which is false. And this post isn't even internally consistent even when you ignore the goalpost move. If everyone completely ignored Garrosh until uprising happened, your very first line here disproves that. Because uprising happened in 5.3, yet you mention Vol'jin starting to act after he got stabbed, which happened in 5.1.

lol i'm stupid, Baine. I was mixing them up in my head.

Brainfart, sorry.

Yes, Cairne DID try to stop Garrosh immediately. After that though, what happened?

No one acted on anything. People mostly spit on the ground around him if anything, but still did what he wanted.

So I stand by that, Saurfang's inaction at the time does not mean he was fine with Garrosh.

[bahumut5]

Honestly, it feels like they're setting up Saurfang to become the new Horde leader :/

[Mehrunes]

Keep playing dumb i'm not gonna bait.

More like you have no counterargument to @Tauror pointing the flaw in your initial argument.

[Aeula]

I think I'm going to be sick.

[mickybrighteyes]

Honestly, it feels like they're setting up Saurfang to become the new Horde leader :/

At this point I'd much rather they kill him off and just go on and make the horde villains... stop killing the warchief off every expansion and actually stick with a story.

[Verdugo]

I think I'm going to be sick.

Reminds me of that line from 300

"May you live forever."

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

At this point I'd much rather they kill him off and just go on and make the horde villains... stop killing the warchief off every expansion and actually stick with a story.

At this point honestly, we can expect Mudmug to become Warchief in some time.

[Dudas]

I think I'm going to be sick.

As an orc I am waiting for Sylvanas to order us again "keep firing". And this time I will spread the plague myself than accept this abomination as canon.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

She told the man who had to kill his own son - after he was turned into an undead servant - that she was going to turn him into an undead servant after he died on the battlefield. How do you expect him to feel about her?

[Dudas]

She told the man who had to kill his own son - after he was turned into an undead servant - that she was going to turn him into an undead servant after he died on the battlefield. How do you expect him to feel about her?

She told the orc that wanted to suicide that if he does that she MIGHT revive him just to teach him what being dead means if he wishes it so badly.

[Verdugo]

She told the man who had to kill his own son - after he was turned into an undead servant - that she was going to turn him into an undead servant after he died on the battlefield. How do you expect him to feel about her?

Maybe he should act as his rank implies, instead of trying to kill himself like a lowly foot soldier.

[Mehrunes]

As far as I remember, after Theramore, Cairne tried to get people to confront Garrosh, but Vol'jin was still against it at that point out of fear for his people.

Baine is spineless and delusional Alliance boot-licker too busy with finding new ways to excuse Alliance's actions against the Horde to do anything for the Horde. He's not exactly a great gauge for anything.

In terms of actions though, what was done? It's not like Saurfang had a real role at that point, the only thing we were given was "The leaders don't really like him and kinda want to get rid of him" until Garrosh tried to get Vol'jin killed off.

But your initial post was a response to @Tauror 's claim that Saurfang ignored Garrosh. And your reply was that everyone behaved like Saurfang before SoO. But Saurfang did literally nothing until SoO. Others already acted. You don't need to fly your banners in an open rebellion for your actions to constitute not ignoring the problem.

Lor'themar was looking for weapons on Isle of Thunder. To use against Garrosh if push comes to shove. Before that he tried to jump ship to the Alliance because of how he treated the Blood Elves. That's not ignoring Garrosh. Gallywix didn't give Garrosh the scroll he found because of the vision of the future he saw. That's not ignoring Garrosh.

Gob squad set out to alert the Horde of their findings in Ragefire Chasm. Vol'jin organized people opposing Garrosh from the shadows, which included guiding Thrall to free Echo Isles from martial law. Sylvanas used the Blight against orders, because she knew from her vision Garrosh wanted Forsaken to squander their forces in Gilneas, just so he could abandon the Forsaken for the Alliance to finish them off. Generals from Theramore conspired against Garrosh. None of that is "ignoring Garrosh".

As opposed to Saurfang doing nothing for 3 years of Garrosh's reign and only getting off his ass in 5.4, right before Garrosh's downfall. Now, of course you're right Blizzard is awful at managing their characters. But it is what it is. The reasons behind lore (in this case Blizzard's incompetence) don't mean much to a discussion on the contents of the story we got.

Now I could be wrong, there could be more I'm forgetting, but most of what I remember was just talks of "we don't really like him, but we'll still follow him for now".

Which I would say is safe to say where Saurfang fell, I mean, didn't he threaten Garrosh before with the whole "I'll kill you myself before I see you lead the Horde down a dark road again"? And there he was, fighting during the Siege against Garrosh.

Mind you, I'm talking about actions, not just planning. Blizzard has a horrible track record with actually including more than 3-5 characters at once even if it suits the character, and Saurfang didn't really have a spotlight at all during MoP as far as I know. There was nothing to say either he was "fine" with Garrosh like Tauror is claiming.

And Garrosh went the dark road in Tides of War when he openly admitted to his advisors he changed his plans and now wanted to beat the Alliance into submission so hard they would never walk again, figuratively speaking. Or maybe even in the Shattering, when he blackmailed Magnataur with the fate of their children. Mind you, I'm not counting Vol'jin threatening Garrosh with death in 4.0 either. That's just empty words. Just as what Saurfang offered in 3.0.

But Vol'jin started to do something in 5.1, while Saurfang was probably still chilling in Warsong Hold. And Tauror said he ignored Garrosh, not that he was fine with him. I may ignore a mosquito buzzing in my room, but I'm not fine with it either.

[Trassk]

I think I'm going to be sick.

look at the alliance symbol on his chest, thats some amazing photoshop work there.

[Darktbs]

[Magnagarde]

Blizzard has finally decided to touch upon the obvious problems within the Horde, instead of making them up(ie Garrosh goes Old God empowered style).

This obvious problem that I am talking about is the fact that they've put diametrical opposites on the same side when it comes to the Horde's races. The controversial, borderline villanous Forsaken together with the druids of the tauren, the shaman of the orcs(the orcs know what it means when their kin are twisted) and so many more are put together into one. They're finally dealing with this, even if just superficially through these two major characters.